(Topic ID: 239358)

My current take on JJP pinball after TPF....


By iceman44

56 days ago



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  • Latest reply 48 days ago by Lamprey
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    There are 602 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 13.
    #151 55 days ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    I need your rose colored glasses. Why waste money changing the line and weeks of down time to build a WOZ no one wants if anything you said about POTC is true. All companies have business plans. All business plans are fluid and constantly being changed as needed. So either POTC is not doing what you claim or management at JJP should be fired. The funniest thing you posted is JJP sticking to a schedule. Their games are really good, built super solid, definitely will love for the hobby, filled with cool stuff, on schedule is not something they have ever been though.

    No, you're not understanding the situation, yet again. They aren't building the YBR on the main line. Jack said this. The main line is still building the last of the POTCs and then swapping to the new game. YBRs are built on the second small line.

    Again - the decision was "POTC is selling better than anticipated so. OPTION A - order more parts, wait for them, hold up main line production and delay new game X and new game Y or OPTION B - finish building POTCs for now, as planned, and continue on release schedule for game X etc"

    That was JJP's choices. They chose option B, and I agree with it. Most would. If they went with option A, we'd have 10 threads on pinside bitching about how JJP hasn't announced a new game yet, JJP must be going under, the sky is falling, blah blah blah. Instead, in spite of POTC success, we have people saying JJP is going under, POTC sales terrible, blah blah blah. Nevermind the fact that a used POTC LE sells within hours for only $500 under NIB retail.

    #152 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    They play terrible.
    Their books can't be that great, based on their output and questionable decisions.

    The man who has 1 pin! Are you Gary?

    #153 55 days ago

    A lot of great points being made here. Before making a hard assumption on JJP, I have several questions that I think the Pinside community would have a better perspective on.

    * In general, what percentage of games are sold to operators vs. individual consumers? If I was an operator, I would tend to avoid higher cost machines to improve my bottom line (of course some machines that have higher price points do draw more plays). For those who are operators, what are your opinions on buying JJP vs. a Stern Pro model?

    * Is JJP's target market HUO customers/collectors or operators? With the prices the way they are, I would assume it's more geared toward collectors or individual consumers with higher disposable incomes.

    * Most would agree that JJP's games are very innovative, pack a good amount of toys, and are designed/coded well (minus a few mishaps such as the spinning disk, which happens when you innovate new features). While it's great that JJP is moving the needle in that aspect, and forcing other companies to keep up, is it really a sustainable business model? With JJP's high price points, one would think that they're getting close to where the demand curve is going to drop off sharply.

    Time will tell...

    #154 55 days ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    This is just how they operate... nothing to get upset about this is their model. If you don't like it don't buy from them that simple!

    #BLACK PEARL

    So i won't go through the ridiculous diatribe you posted line by line because its not based in any sort of reality as to what is actually going on.

    You and a whole lot of other people have the wrong idea and just summed up the problem with that last sentence!

    The solution is NOT "if you don't like it don't buy from them that simple". That's an idiotic business approach.

    Make me want to spend $10k or $12.5 with you, not F you if you don't like how we do things. I buy games from everybody.

    In fact, I paid $12k for a POTCCE that delivery is delayed because of the issues mentioned here.

    I'm not rowing in a one man boat here

    #155 55 days ago
    Quoted from Skyemont:

    The man who has 1 pin! Are you Gary?

    If my 1 and only pin was a GOTG pro I’d be angry, too.

    #156 55 days ago
    Quoted from Skyemont:

    The man who has 1 pin! Are you Gary?

    What does the number of pins I own have anything to do with it? Would my opinion be more valid if I owed 10 $500 pins? Why do I need to own any?

    Just being an avid player is enough for me to make an opinion on their playability.

    #157 55 days ago
    Quoted from WyseGuy:

    If my 1 and only pin was a GOTG pro I’d be angry, too.

    Well, you'd be wrong on that too.

    #158 55 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    too-many-pins looks at Frightner's posts and thinks he needs an editor.

    half as long (resized).png
    -1
    #159 55 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    No, you're not understanding the situation, yet again. They aren't building the YBR on the main line. Jack said this. The main line is still building the last of the POTCs and then swapping to the new game. YBRs are built on the second small line.
    Again - the decision was "POTC is selling better than anticipated so. OPTION A - order more parts, wait for them, hold up main line production and delay new game X and new game Y or OPTION B - finish building POTCs for now, as planned, and continue on release schedule for game X etc"
    That was JJP's choices. They chose option B, and I agree with it. Most would. If they went with option A, we'd have 10 threads on pinside bitching about how JJP hasn't announced a new game yet, JJP must be going under, the sky is falling, blah blah blah. Instead, in spite of POTC success, we have people saying JJP is going under, POTC sales terrible, blah blah blah. Nevermind the fact that a used POTC LE sells within hours for only $500 under NIB retail.

    Pirates was not selling well. That's why they stoped making it.

    There's literally nothing more to say about that.

    #160 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    Pirates was not selling well. That's why they stoped making it.
    There's literally nothing more to say about that.

    Facts say otherwise, but don't let that get in your way.

    #161 55 days ago

    They’re pretty much sold out everywhere and what is being built now is already spoken for, but I guess that’s no indication of how well it sold.

    #162 55 days ago
    Quoted from Pinballomatic:

    They’re pretty much sold out everywhere and what is being built now is already spoken for, but I guess that’s no indication of how well it sold.

    And used ones sell in hours for only $500 off NIB price. Clearly, they are not selling well.

    #163 55 days ago
    Quoted from Pinballomatic:

    They’re pretty much sold out everywhere and what is being built now is already spoken for, but I guess that’s no indication of how well it sold.

    As of last week there were still CE’s to be had.

    Does it really matter how well they sell if the are making $500 per machine? I’m not saying this is the case but the rumor that was somewhat substantiated was the delays and mech issues put the costs way over what was originally planned.

    Again this was the rumor back when it was announced they were shutting it down, couple this with some info the came out of TPF and it makes sense.

    #164 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    Pirates was not selling well. That's why they stoped making it.
    There's literally nothing more to say about that.

    Its either that or it cost to much to make and they simply weren't making any $.....everyone seems to really love the game so its not game play....

    #165 55 days ago
    Quoted from Pinballomatic:

    They’re pretty much sold out everywhere and what is being built now is already spoken for, but I guess that’s no indication of how well it sold.

    The "end of the line" narrative accelerated demand and orders, including myself. I bought one because i think it looks like a great pin.

    There will be another run of Pirates next year to satisfy any demand, no worries.

    You can def still get an LE or CE if you want one. "Waiting on parts"

    #166 55 days ago
    Quoted from Goronic:

    Stern then upped their game and raised prices according

    Stern raised their prices but significantly cheapened the machines. I’d hardly call that upping their game.

    With JJP the higher price got you a better quality game. More for more. With Stern you got the opposite.

    I get why Jack did YBR. I don’t have a problem with it unless both JJP and Stern try to make $11.5k the new normal without any significant increase in quality. But breaking the $10k barrier is going to be a showstopper for most.

    10
    #167 55 days ago

    To suggest POTC- one of the top grossing movie themes in decades- is a lousy franchise without saying the Munsters and shitty band themes that are 40 years too late is positively absurd.

    -1
    #168 55 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    Facts say otherwise, but don't let that get in your way.

    What facts would those be?

    What JJP said? LOL!

    #169 55 days ago

    Waiting for the DR response, I'll give it another hour, it takes him a while to gather thoughts and generate the essay

    #170 55 days ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    Its either that or it cost to much to make and they simply weren't making any $.....everyone seems to really love the game so its not game play....

    Oh, there are plenty of people who don't like the gameplay too. When I first saw it, I thought "This is the one! The first great JJP game!"

    But then I played. And again, and again. Terrible.

    -1
    #171 55 days ago
    Quoted from Ragnar1991:

    I want JJP to succeed, but I question some of their decisions. Giving Lawlor complete creative control was a mistake. Make DI a different theme, and it sells many more units. There is a reason people were walking out of the room at Texas Pinball when DI was announced - people couldn't believe it was actually the theme.

    This may be the funniest thing I have experienced since getting into the hobby. The guys were literally waiting to see if the absurd rumors were true.....then bolted when they realized they were.

    #172 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    What facts would those be?
    What JJP said? LOL!

    What distributors said, what the used market said. I know, it's hard to accept the truth when it doesn't fit your agenda.

    #173 55 days ago

    Fact: they are nearly sold out everywhere. Perhaps there are a few left but generally speaking there will be no NIB around very soon. Most of the distributors are completely sold out of their allotment even if physically they do not possess the last few that they ordered because they are waiting for them to be built.
    Speculation: there will be another version of Pirates built next year or whenever. I don’t think so but as it is not the future yet no one can say for sure.
    Fact: the main playfield line is being prepped for game 5 alongside the last Pirates being finished up. Meanwhile the new version of WOZ is being built on the secondary line.

    #174 55 days ago
    Quoted from gliebig:

    monkey can't grab balls

    might be a little NSFW

    #175 55 days ago
    Quoted from Pinballomatic:

    Fact: they are nearly sold out everywhere. Perhaps there are a few left but generally speaking there will be no NIB around very soon. Most of the distributors are completely sold out of their allotment even if physically they do not possess the last few that they ordered because they are waiting for them to be built.
    Speculation: there will be another version of Pirates built next year or whenever. I don’t think so but as it is not the future yet no one can say for sure.
    Fact: the main playfield line is being prepped for game 5 alongside the last Pirates being finished up. Meanwhile the new version of WOZ is being built on the secondary line.

    Fact. If they game is selling gangbusters and there is a continuous demand for the title, you don't mothball it.

    Unless you are losing money off of it, and if that is the case, the management is incompetent.

    Fact.

    -1
    #176 55 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    What distributors said, what the used market said. I know, it's hard to accept the truth when it doesn't fit your agenda.

    Fantasyland.

    #177 55 days ago
    Quoted from jfh:

    Stern raised their prices but significantly cheapened the machines. I’d hardly call that upping their game.
    With JJP the higher price got you a better quality game. More for more. With Stern you got the opposite.
    .

    "more for more"... Not more fun IMHO! Say what you want about Stern build quality, but their games are fun and their themes are much better than JJP. I had WOZ and DI both were quickly sold and now I have BM66 & Maiden and they are both fantastic! Jack is one of the most decent people I have met in this industry but he needs a home run game ASAP and going back to the well on WOZ is not what most had in mind.

    #178 55 days ago

    I put mine up and had 14 offers within 12 hours, including several that wanted me to kick original buyer to curb and pay significantly over my asking price. How is Fantasyland, Sinestro?

    -10
    #179 55 days ago
    Quoted from SheriffBarclay:

    I put mine up and had 14 offers within 12 hours, including several that wanted me to kick original buyer to curb and pay significantly over my asking price. How is Fantasyland, Sinestro?

    Congrats. You found 14 JJP fanboys.

    #180 55 days ago

    See ya all back here in 3 years. I'll bring tabasco sauce to make your hats taste better.

    Ciao!

    #181 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    Fact. If they game is selling gangbusters and there is a continuous demand for the title, you don't mothball it.
    Unless you are losing money off of it, and if that is the case, the management is incompetent.
    Fact.

    It's quite clear you don't understand how a business like this works. No need to continue wasting our time on you.

    #182 55 days ago
    Quoted from SheriffBarclay:

    I put mine up and had 14 offers within 12 hours, including several that wanted me to kick original buyer to curb and pay significantly over my asking price. How is Fantasyland, Sinestro?

    He's an anti JJP troll, don't waste your time. He's been drinking the Stern Kool-Aid for too long along with a few others on this site.

    Go read his comments in Stern threads, they can do no wrong. Comical.

    #183 55 days ago

    What color is the sky in his world?

    -20
    #184 55 days ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    So i won't go through the ridiculous diatribe you posted line by line because its not based in any sort of reality as to what is actually going on

    No I don't have to gather my thoughts moron, I don't live in Pinside as clearly you do! I own my own business I build amusement attractions, and understand this a whole lot better than you. I go to all the same shows as Stern to JJ to everyone... you don't know anything you just think you do.

    Pinball is a niche business, most entertainment centers do not buy them. Many social bars are buying them because what was old is new again, its trendy. Pinball games don't have the best return on the investment, what moves money is redemption games.

    Collector games like WOZ sell very fast, and WAY ABOVE MSRP if you really want to know the truth. A high end retail store will sell those Yellow Brick Roads will end up selling for like 15k each. Bank on that. You can also bank on every single one they're making is already SOLD to their outlets. BANK ON THAT AS WELL!

    So all the little snide remarks about how yellow brick road is dead on arrival are wrong. Lastly, the yellow brick road will ONLY INCREASE the value of current WOZ games, because of the price and how much new ones cost. WOZ owners have nothing to fear, it will go down as the most collector sought after game ever.

    Do I play WOZ anymore, not really... but I can't bring myself to sell it. That is the type of relationship i think most people have with their WOZ.

    NO MATTER WHAT ALL THAT MATTERS IS JJP keeps making games, stays in business, and offers the best games they can offer.

    Some of you people ripping on this company like there is no tomorrow and if you ask me its really unfair!

    #185 55 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    Ah the old "Stern makes more games so JJP isn't successful" argument, have never understood it. As a customer I don't care if Stern has made 30 games as they still have 1/2 the code, animation quality, code variety, build quality, and features of a JJP pin. 1/2 is being generous I'm some cases.

    As long as other companies are comparing themselves to Stern then they will know they are #1 just like the 90s Yankees and the Patriots

    #186 55 days ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    A high end retail store will sell those Yellow Brick Roads will end up selling for like 15k each

    Not digging on ya so don't take it this way! Do you really think this will be the case? If, as you say, these sell out Jack has stated that more will be made as long as there is a demand so I would think that it would make it hard for a YBR version to increase in price, especially with it being at the price point it's at now. I had the opportunity to purchase a RR at 8k which is a k below selling price so obviously the RR isn't increasing in price either.

    #187 55 days ago

    First off, neither stern or JJP suck. Both have things they are really good at and both have things they need to work on. Both have made some awesome games. The constant back and forth with people crushing one and cheering another is tiresome.

    Quoted from drfrightner:

    Collector games like WOZ sell very fast, and WAY ABOVE MSRP if you really want to know the truth. A high end retail store will sell those Yellow Brick Roads will end up selling for like 15k each. Bank on that. You can also bank on every single one they're making is already SOLD to their outlets. BANK ON THAT AS WELL!


    You might be an expert at what you do. But if you think any version of WOZ is selling for 15k in "high end retail stores" you do not know anything about pinball. Randomly saying BANK ON THAT does not make it true.

    most collectable and sought after game ever? You are going to have to relinquish your doctorate after that one.

    I was gonna get that King Kong but I got this banana WOZ instead....

    -9
    #188 55 days ago

    Its real simple folks, JJP games are too f*cking expensive and honestly they just arent that fun either. No way in hell they stay in business with the prices that they are charging. Give me a Stern game anyday, they are much more fun and they have the best designers and coders in the business!

    $11,500 dollars for a Yellow Dick Toad Edition WOZ? Give me a f*cking break, nobody in their right mind can defend JJP’s prices. I’m not trying to be a dick but thats just laughable.

    #189 55 days ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    First off, neither stern or JJP suck. Both have things they are really good at and both have things they need to work on. Both have made some awesome games. The constant back and forth with people crushing one and cheering another is tiresome.

    Finally someone else has said this! I am a big JJP fan but Stern, by no means, sucks! Has Stern made some less then desirable machines .... hell yeah but at the rate they're producing not every game is going to be a hit. As for price gouging ..... Stern and JJP are guilty of this! Whether it be the Beatles cash grab or the YBR cash grab!

    It's a great time for pinball but yet with every release its another shit show of (insert pinball manufacturer) sucks!

    #190 55 days ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    No I don't have to gather my thoughts moron, I don't live in Pinside as clearly you do! I own my own business I build amusement attractions, and understand this a whole lot better than you. I go to all the same shows as Stern to JJ to everyone... you don't know anything you just think you do.
    Pinball is a niche business, most entertainment centers do not buy them. Many social bars are buying them because what was old is new again, its trendy. Pinball games don't have the best return on the investment, what moves money is redemption games.
    Collector games like WOZ sell very fast, and WAY ABOVE MSRP if you really want to know the truth. A high end retail store will sell those Yellow Brick Roads will end up selling for like 15k each. Bank on that. You can also bank on every single one they're making is already SOLD to their outlets. BANK ON THAT AS WELL!
    So all the little snide remarks about how yellow brick road is dead on arrival are wrong. Lastly, the yellow brick road will ONLY INCREASE the value of current WOZ games, because of the price and how much new ones cost. WOZ owners have nothing to fear, it will go down as the most collector sought after game ever.
    Do I play WOZ anymore, not really... but I can't bring myself to sell it. That is the type of relationship i think most people have with their WOZ.
    NO MATTER WHAT ALL THAT MATTERS IS JJP keeps making games, stays in business, and offers the best games they can offer.
    Some of you people ripping on this company like there is no tomorrow and if you ask me its really unfair!

    Calling me a moron is not very nice DR!

    We have already established that JJP games are NOT "collector games" and to expect that kind of thing is crazy and if you don't like it then don't buy it.

    Thus, "a collector Woz" is an oxymoron. The most sought after game ever? I have to cut you some slack since you have only been around a year or so and managed to make a lot of friends in the process but.....wow

    And clearly, you have shown your ignorance re the statement about high end retail stores selling those YBR's for $15k! I am ROTFLMAO right now.

    I have a friend that is in the "amusement business". I trust his opinion and judgment on things i don't know first hand about. And it ain't jiving with you

    #191 55 days ago
    Quoted from meSz:

    Finally someone else has said this! I am a big JJP fan but Stern, by no means, sucks! Has Stern made some less then desirable machines .... hell yeah but at the rate they're producing not every game is going to be a hit. As for price gouging ..... Stern and JJP are guilty of this! Whether it be the Beatles cash grab or the YBR cash grad!
    It's a great time for pinball but yet with every release its another shit show of (insert pinball manufacturer) sucks!

    Completely agree.

    -3
    #192 55 days ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Its real simple folks, JJP games are too f*cking expensive and honestly they just arent that fun either. No way in hell they stay in business with the prices that they are charging. Give me a Stern game anyday, they are much more fun and they have the best designers and coders in the business!
    $11,500 dollars for a Yellow Dick Toad Edition WOZ? Give me a f*cking break, nobody in their right mind can defend JJP’s prices. I’m not trying to be a dick but thats just laughable.

    You do realize Stern is charging $9k for LE's that have half as many features and have as much code right? I'm happy to keep selling my Stern pins for more JJP pins that are more fun to play, have more to do, are better built, and have far more code work going into them.

    10
    #193 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    They have? Pirates took 10 months to ship after announcement.

    Woz was longest to release, Jack had to build the factory, Hobbit 2 years and underwent changes, Dialed in a year, Pirates ten months. Keeps getting shorter.

    And the main assembly line has the story boards going up and the next game ready to be shown at MGC and start shipping within a few weeks after that.

    Plenty of time to clear the line and get it ready for an Expo 2019 reveal of the next game.

    They aren't sitting in New Jersey twiddling their thumbs, they are learning what has to be done and when.

    I'm in tech support. Hyperbole is my middle name.

    Quoted from Sinestro:

    I doubt JJP will have a big part in that.

    Me too. I believe JJP will have a HUGE part in it !

    LTG : )

    -2
    #194 55 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    You are in the top 5 Stern fanboys on this site, constantly bashing JJP and going gaga over anything Stern. Sorry but you have no credibility if you always show a biased towards one manufacturer and yes I've been critical of JJP many times.
    To this day I think some people are still pissed JJP came out of nowhere and started making more loaded pins with far better code support then a majority of Stern pins. JJP's very existence seems to piss them off lol.

    OMG Panzer next thing out of your mouth is going to be fair and balanced I bet. I regularly see you bashing on Stern threads don't act like you are not biased toward JJP

    #195 55 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    You do realize Stern is charging $9k for LE's that have half as many features and have as much code right? Next.

    I dont buy LE’s so that doesnt affect me. I can also get a LE for far less than 9k if i want one.

    #196 55 days ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    And the main assembly line has the story boards going up and the next game ready to be shown at MGC and start shipping within a few weeks after that.

    Can't wait for MGC, I'll be there!

    #197 55 days ago
    Quoted from JY64:

    OMG Panzer next thing out of your mouth is going to be fair and balanced I bet. I regularly see you bashing on Stern threads don't act like you are not biased toward JJP

    Panzer isn’t JJP’s #1 fanboy but hes near the top thats for sure!

    #198 55 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    You do realize Stern is charging $9k for LE's that have half as many features and have as much code right? I'm happy to keep selling my Stern pins for more JJP pins that are more fun to play, have more to do, are better built, and have far more code work going into them.

    Quite the exaggeration there.

    #199 55 days ago
    Quoted from JY64:

    OMG Panzer next thing out of your mouth is going to be fair and balanced I bet. I regularly see you bashing on Stern threads don't act like you are not biased toward JJP

    I like Stern pins as well (still have one I bought NIB) and have complimented them many times in addition to being critical. Biased towards JJP? I have a Stern Pinball hat on right now lol. Next.

    20190327_181251 (resized).jpg

    #200 55 days ago
    Quoted from Sinestro:

    Pirates was not selling well. That's why they stoped making it.

    They stoped for other reasons. They needed the line. They build Pirates into Fall, we wouldn't see a new title until next year.

    LTG : )

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