Still waiting to see if Stern will ever get a true competitor in the marketplace. After just returning from TPF, and playing the other new pins like Oktoberfest, and Alice Cooper, and that Cosmic Carnival game, not to mention JJP's rehash of the same game, I am starting to doubt it. CGC is the only other company that is selling real units other than stern, and from an operator's perspective the only other company that can be trusted to deliver on what they promise. And within a reasonable timeline. Hopefully Jack can finally get it all together.

My underlying question is why make Pirates when there is one already out there? It appears to me it was an ego thing against Gary. I like both pirates but I am content paying 4700 for a stern and having just as enjoyable of a game experience. I think JJPOTC was just a bad call to begin with. I truly hope JJP isnt in financial trouble as I am looking forward to seeing what is next. My recommendation - they need to hire some people away from Stern who can help design and make these more quickly and efficiently.

JJP POTC and Stern POTC are nowhere near the same game experience...

Why does everyone keep saying JJ isn't making money? Did I miss that point of fact somewhere?

If they sell ~3k WOZ/~2k DI @ 9k each...there has to be some profit.?

How is Toy Story outdated and doa? One of the biggest movie franchises of all time. Toy story 3 Made over 1billion at the box office. Toy story 4 comes out in a couple months. JJP needs to capitalize on this. Could be a huge money maker for them if done properly

I think the issue is that JJP's goal was to be a premium pinball machine maker. That's why WOZ pulled out all the stops. It was ideally a step up from Stern in toys, innovation, LCD, and code. Stern then upped their game and raised prices according - but stayed just under JJP costing to appear more 'affordable'. Also they kick out so many games so fast it has a better chance of landing on someone's game preference.

Now we are expecting JJP to go against what they set out to do and be more like Stern or CGC. That just isn't in their blood. I think Jack should stick to their model - and not try to get into direct competition with Sterns approach. The next few releases will be key - I just think JJP underestimated the manufacturing costs, ramp up time, and that their pins did not have as much appeal to the average Pinside pinball buyer and player.

Maybe their next pin will have more universal praise and appeal for new and experience pinball players alike. I sure hope so...

It's not rocket science. JJP has been in business since 2011, and since that time have produced <10,000 games among all models. When you factor in your factory, parts, salaries, tooling, legal issues, etc. over that many years and divide it up it doesn't exactly show profit. There are more Fish Tales games produced by Williams in one year in the 90's than all of the JJP games put together over 8 years.

Again, no facts, just assumptions. Show #'s. Not being a prick, but if no one knows the numbers, you can't make factual statements.

You must be joking people bitch like the sky is falling when Stern makes the annual $200 price increase. A $2000 price increase if something was added but with subtraction

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How many times since JJP’s inception have big investors had to come in and sink big money?

Hasn’t upper level mgmt changed a few times since 2012 as well?

I think we all want them to succeed as they do build the best quality game but something just seems off with how the company is run.

How much money you really think they make per machine? I think we would all be surprised how low it is.

No we're not asking them to drop prices to stern/CGC level. But they also can't be thousands more than those two. I'm happy to more more for a better product, but within reason. I'm a buyer at $9k-ish for a JJP LE level machines.

It's well known from numerous sources that JJP was bailed out by an angel investor after WOZ and again before Hobbit. since that time they've had 2 sales flops (Dialed In ~1500 units) and (JJPOTC ~1000 games) over a couple year period including many delays. I don't know the numbers but if I had to guess i would think they are still heavily in the red. I'm hoping they can turn this around this year as I think Willy Wonka has the potential to be a huge hit for them!

I know this statement is funny as shit. I needed a good laugh today!

Facts WOZ sold 4000 TH 2000 sales number drop with every price increase jaws dropped at $8000 than at $8500 $9000 $9500 if the new price is $11,500 JJP goes under

IMO, this should have been done the proper way. What was expected, was added value for the "limited" rehash of the game. Some simple (not too costly) additions would have went a long way.

They could have :
Added led eye lights in the trees (tree mod)
Added the flying monkey mod (not removed mech entirely)
Dressed up Dorthy's spinning house
Sparkling matching yellow gold armor (not the bright yellow)
A powder coated coin door

Total = $500 give or take.

A true limited 200 run on the YBR model (not "we might do it again")

This model is $2000 more than a RR, so make these truly special. One can't help but be insulted watching how this transpired.

I own a WOZ RR and am a big JJP supporter/fan, and want to see them do well, so don't get me wrong here. I also run a company, so I know you can't expect the customer to pay more for less! This is what everyone is annoyed about.

1) They are both equally fun to me hence why I didnt buy one.
2) They are nowhere near the same price either.

My point is I think this game turned people off (hence its not selling) because there is another already out there. Now, Toy Story I cannot wait for and JJP may get my money then.

I think JJP needs to spend some time and money on market research.

YBR = You Better Run

Your last statement is key.....

I know Wonka is pretty popular amongst pinsiders but I view this title as a major major risk. It isn’t widely beloved as is WOZ, even more so outside of the US.

Toy Story on the other hand will sell well globally. Still very popular amongst families.

i agree, nobody wants less for more. but we can all vote with our wallets. this thread takes it personal. that’s all i’m getting from it.

Great list of upgrades, those would be what I suggest and these would have made game feel special. And those are the mods new customers want. All those plus switch over to boardset 2.0, which is something JJP wanted to do. These may have cost $1k including boards, and now for the fantasy ... imagine price was kept at $10k. Give the people a great game and quit raising prices. They could have sold many more WOZ at 10k as opposed to very very few at $11.5k.

"3) Jack had destroyed the "collectibility" of any JJP game."

I couldn't agree more with this statement, which is why I stopped my support of JJP after taking delivery of The Hobbit. First there was WOZ Emerald Green, then Ruby Red and now Yellow Brick Road. If I buy another JJP game it will be on the secondary market. JJP won't be getting anymore of my money.

I agree. Ice hates Jack and thats fine. Are his prices high, hell yeah. Do you have to buy his pins, no. All i have to say is Sterns 9k LE is not worth it as well. Thats a fact. If these prices continue, i will just enjoy the older B and C titles.

True. Honestly I am going with HUO for a while (maybe forever).

In fact - keep me in mind when you go to sell your Toy Story in the future!

I’m all for them making more money. However, they don’t seem to understand that short term moves like how YBR has removed mechs can affect things like their reputation longer term which has far larger costs.

My first pin was a WOZRR as Jack sold me on his vision of a company as being nothing but the best - pinball without compromizes.

After the JJPOTC mech removals including stating openly that they could not open and close a trunk(!), you would have thought they would have learned a simple lesson - removing sh*t does not appeal to collectors and enthusiasts.

Now they reveal their finest and sparkling vision of WOZ with a mech removed? And apparently with no thought given to the fact that mech removal is precisely what enthusiasts like me hate the most?

Think about this... after the pirates mech removal debacle, they focused on removing a mech for their next pin release! And for a mech the entire community is familiar with! And even now surprised (again!) at the reaction of the community to YBR edition!

I’m sure things will turn around again, and I’m just speaking for myself here, but JJP seems lost right now like they have no concern or care for their reputation long term. To me it’s sad.

Truth. Ice and I have had a long road with JJP. Mostly a waiting game.

Jack should have kept the monkey in and called YBR a CE and held to making just 200 of them. This would have been more palatable as it could be seen as a price reduction in the CE line (down from the $12.5k POTC CE).

It probably isn't too late to do that. They really should call it a CE...

JJP would have been better off limiting the YBR version to 200 games. At that price point they might have a chance to sell it out if they limited the run. That being said I really don't understand the logic of removing the monkey from the game....they've built thousands of units with the monkey .... its completely illogical...my guess is that JJP investors have put management on on short lease, and time is running out........at some point throwing good money after bad takes its toll....people with $ like to make $

I wish somehow Jack could maybe just go with an SE edition - much like Hobbit did with Smuag and keep the LEs for - you know - LEs. They do need to find a way to do SE/LE model under the 10K mark. They can dabble with 11.5 and 12.5K with CEs - but they need to sell more pins in that SE/LE segment at volume.

Can't argue with the price. I will never pay 11,500 for a pin. Thats my point. If you dont like the price and did not want the YBRWOZ anyway, why worry about it. I will never buy a Stern LE for 9k. Never!! There comes a time and price point where we all feel like, thats enough. For me, its now. I will hold tight and just buy B and C titles. Its become very stupid for JJP and Stern to be at 9k and above.

Exactly. It just seems nuts. So, without any other information, we search for other reasons. I too am left with a feeling that things are not stable at JJP - hope I’m wrong.

In any case, JJP must explain to the community WHY they took out the monkey mech. Was it broken and unfixable? Why could they not fix it? Was it that expensive that it was worth taking out at any cost to reputation?

Do you see how this along with being unable to open and close the pirates trunk could lead us to believe that something is not right at JJP?

Monkeygate. It's all a big monkey conspiracy. Monkey can't grab ass...monkey can't grab balls.

So just thinking out loud and was curious if the monkey mech being taken out had anything at all to do with the monkeys from Octoberfest turning into an emotional mess?
I don't know but was thinking...maybe?
-Mike

Diskgate, trunkgate and now monkeygate.

For heaven’s sake, if we hear about mechs removed on their next release...

It all turns into one giant massdebate.

I do have a question though :

Has anyone ever had a problem with the monkey mech?

It hasn't ever given me an issue and out of the 4 owners that I know, none of them either.

I know this is senseless at this point, but I do wonder.

Never had an issue with my RRWOZ.

Re the monkey, either JJP could not fix the issues after 8 years (if there were issues), or they removed it for cost savings on their most elite and most expensive version.

Whatever the reason, the optics are terrible.

I want to give you a thumbs up and thumbs down.

I do agree that YBR is stupid cash grab and PotC didn’t sell so they decided to halt production to make people ont he fence feel like it was now or never and move a few more units. Heck look at CGC they keep making AFM aid there is demand no need to rattle the cages and say buy now or never (???).

However when you said who cares about Woz and DI that I disagree with because they are both great.

I don't think we should care about an offshoot model costing a ridiculous price. We didn't get upset about Spiderman Home Edition Supreme (if you did, get an additional hobby). We get it. It's for outsiders. Don't buy it. I prefer my RR and told Jack the price on YBR is high and that POTC should have come with a manual for the price.

I think what we, as potential buyers of JJP games should look at is on April 12/13th when Willy Wonka is revealed. What will be the price and what will be the features?

Butch Peel (JJP employee) said last weekend that they won't do something like Pirates again. He kind of backed away from what he was saying, but I took it to mean that JJPOTC was very ambitious and they can't afford another delay. I asked if that meant they won't have all the features and asked him to keep it awesome. I love Pirates. Waiting sucked. Supposedly WW ships within 60 days after reveal.

Let's see what happens, and save the doom and gloom talk for when the service and build quality from JJP takes a dip. Because it hasn't yet.

LE still means something
Standard = Expensive
LE = Lots more Expensive
CE = Crazy more Expensive

Shake my head. At least have the decency to give a reach around. I mean if you are going to charge $11500 don’t remove mechanical toys at the same time.

All thatmoney and no cliffys....love their games and all others but I refuse to sell 3 games to get a new one.

Pricing is crazy ....CGC remakes at 6k sounds like a deal

Gary is trying to bury them in bad themes and incomplete games. He's like the Vince McMahon of pinball.

Some of these JJP doom and gloom comments make me laugh. Jack said at TPF they are sold out of every game at the factory. They are more successful today then they have ever been and have a big release with Wonka right around the corner and a second game being announced later this year.

Personally I think JJP is only going to grow as a company. I wouldn't be surprised though if Wonka is scaled back a bit in regards to featues.

YBR is a cash grab though lol. JJP also needs to stop with their unlimited "limited editions" and make LE counts lower. Theres only one true WOZ LE, it was made over 5 years ago and is called the ECLE.

It's been said in many other posts complaining about every manufacturer...if you don't like it, don't buy it. None of these pinball companies are perfect - either JJP is too expensive, or Stern's quality sucks, or Spooky is making pins too slowly, or there is a decal crack on a CGC machine, etc. etc. Whatever a companies motives are - either to get richer or to stay in business, it is their prerogative. Speak with your wallet. If a company truly makes bad decisions they will go out of business and perhaps that is what should happen. I don't want any of these companies to go out of business as I think they all provide something cool and unique to the world of pinball.

Sold out at factory doesn’t mean highly profitable.

I think this was spot on.. YBR was a cash grab to keep the business going. Jack said it himself they have 0 pins in stock right now, this also means 0 money coming in on sales to keep paying people to work. Wonka was slow to ship (again), and that means no pins / pre-orders for cash flow.

Stern does need competition for pricing and innovation. I really believe JJP is the only reason we have larger color displays in pinball today. I think Spooky has also stepped it up with ACNC. If YBR gets JJP over the lull great, but consider me worried.