If my shit looks like this , I am going to scream !

Wow that looks bad. I don't see it nearly as bad on the CPR website. Paying for a new product I would not expect to see fractures in brand new inserts. That would bother me.

I ordered a pinbot from them and it was it was a second or whatever not the gold class, but it didn't have anything wrong with it like that. Betting that one just slipped out unnoticed, cause my personal experience with their quality has been phenomenal. Did you email them?

I don't think they do a lot of Quality checks on shipment. They just grab and ship. I've had to send a pf back before. But they will work with you on exchange. You eat the shipping, but if it gets you a better pf, it is worth it.

Maybe someone else who got their playfield could chime in with a few photos. I hope this isn;t the norm, have one on order.

That blows.

I'm no expert but those colors seem bland.I honestly think my original has more "pop"

That's terrible. I just sent off my $800 and will not be happy if I receive one that looks like that.

It's hard to judge colors from non-professional photos, so I'd suggest ignoring them if you're reading this thread. However that "S" insert does look rough.

what causes these cracks?

I saw one unboxed this week and it did not have any problems like this. The inserts were smooth and the clear looked great.

Friendly suggestion...if you ever have a problem with a CPR product, send Kevin an email explaining the problem, and give him a chance to make it right. In my experience, he's pretty good to deal with when things go wrong.

For me it is worth the hassle. At least they work with you to try to make you happy. QC is lacking - I agree. But when you want to restore a game, you do what you have to - That is what does it for me, bringing a game back to life...

If they sent me a playfield like that I would want them to foot the shipping bill.

I heard from my friend with the playfield I saw earlier this week. He said his playfield has the same problems.

My buddy and I just ordered two playfields -- one each. If they look like that, I'm sending mine back. I'd rather keep the original.

Disappointed with your pics and now concerned about our playfields that will be here any day.

What is the cause of all of the fractures in the inserts? Do they come like that when they get them or is it caused by the install in to the playfield?

Inserts are simply epoxy'd into the the playfield, there is nothing we do during production that would cause inserts to craze like this....Mis-Handeling during Shipping maybe? No idea as I'm not involved in the actual "hands-on" Production process, but I do know what the process is.....

I'd say follow up with CPR and they will make it right. I've had nothing but good experiences with Kevin. Your pic has more crackling than one of my bargain basement playfields (not WW).

Chris

The crackled inserts is the reason why I sold all of my Fathom playfields. Each one had this issue.

I was hoping after all these years, CPR would have learned how to prevent this mistake.

Better than nothing?

Well, I brought this issue up to Kevin with a previous playfield purchase. I've attached my comments and his responses below. I talked to the guy who does my playfield work now about this and he did affirm that this is not unique to CPR. He couldn't say Kevin was wrong is his analysis, but he did have a different theory. His take is that when you have crystal clear inserts (clear meaning not frosted/light diffusing), they get crackling/crazing when they get pressed into the playfield and it is very noticeable. The recent clear coats are really clear and shiny which makes the cracks much more apparent. He showed me examples of some original B/W playfields (DMD era) and the same kinds of issues are there but to a much lesser extent. But, we also talked about ways that the playfield could be screened and cleared that would prevent it from being noticeable.

I am disappointed in CPR for not taking this issue and trying to improve on it. There ARE solutions but their attitude is to simply say that's the way it is. CPR recently had offered playfields without clear and took advantage of that recently. On those 2 playfields, I had my guy clear them and I see NO crackling/crazing on a single one of those inserts. They're gorgeous top to bottom. So, I'm not convinced that there is a "just have to live with it" scenario. If CPR had offered that on the Whirlwind playfield, I would have gone with it.

For the record, my Whirlwind playfield that I just received from CPR is full of crackled/crazed inserts (as noted and photographed in this thread by others) and there is nothing much you can do about it since it's already got a coat of clear on it.

I'm not trying to bash CPR here. I'm just trying to make the point that the issue noted here is not unique to the Whirlwind run. But, I am disappointed in CPR for not making a concerted effort to improve things.

Jaz

*****************************
Jaz said: "The playfield looks pretty good. I'm a little disappointed in that a number
of inserts show some crazing. Did some of those inserts come from old stock you had in stock? I'm hoping that the crazing won't show once installed and illuminated. I've only had a few minutes to look at them, but it's possible that the crazing is between the insert and the clear. Have you heard of this before? Is there a chance it will clear up in time?"

Kevin said: "I'd have to see what you mean by crazing. Yes, the inserts are from 2005. But
that shouldn't make them any different than inserts molded fresh. Clearcoat
reveals in pure clarity whatever the body of the insert looks like, and all of
them are different. Clear doesn't "do" anything to an insert, but it does make
it look permanently wet as with the whole surface. So whatever was in the
insert when it was molded (crystals, bubbles, ripples, pressure fracture lines,
etc) will all be there forever. Inserts are like that in every one of our
playfields - especially if they are transparent. And clearcoat is not forgiving
in hiding the details of inserts. It reveals all."

Jaz said: "What do you think is going on with these inserts?" (pics attached)

Kevin said: "Those are molding crackles from when the insert was molded and cooled.
They are found in probably 1 in every 10 inserts, if they are
transparent style plastic. I explained it a little bit in the prev
email you had attached. Just so you can see it's common in all our runs,
here are some examples from the old Fathom photo gallery from our site
(photos attached).... the image on the left in each frame is the 2004
Fathom run, the right is 2009 Fathom re-run."

_{Post edited by Jazman : typos}

I believe that the defects were in the plastics from the very beginning. That "V" insert shape seems very prone to cracking - I've seen this problem on the "ladder" inserts of a few F-14s (same exact shape). My theory is that the plastic took more force to pop out of that "V" mold, and that's when the damage occurred. I doubt that handling by CPR is what caused the problem.

My guess is that the original mold for that "V" plastic is no longer available, and CPR is just doing the best they can to meet the demand with the stock they have on hand.

Those "V" molds are readily available at 3 different Insert manufacturers....

Ah, then never mind. Actually I'm surprised there's more than 1 insert manufacturer!

I've seen liquid that you squirt into a crack and it fills it in. Could something like this work on a pinball insert? Has anyone ever tried this?

Ok Guys,

Here is a Detailed explination of INSERT "CRACKLES"......

The Inserts are Not Cracked, There is No "seperation" going on between the Insert & the Clear-Coat, Inserts are Not "Forced" into the playfield Wood (they are actually 'loose' so that there is room between the Wood & Plastic for Epoxy), they are Not cracked during Shipping....

Here is the explination (in Detail with Photos) Click on the Photos to make them larger....

Halfway down the page: INSERT "CRACKLES"......
http://classicplayfields.com/standards.html

Stu, great explanation - it makes perfect sense. However I don't think it's just "first-time buyers" who get surprised by things like this, so I'd suggest taking that phrase out of the section title. Basically it sounds like anyone who doesn't know this stuff is a newb...and I would guess MOST people wouldn't know this.

As always, thanks for what you guys do.

It happens, just be happy you got one, I think there will be guys who will be dissapointed that they dont! Plus CPR doesnt make the inserts, they just buy them.

Guys;

I have seen this since before CPR started making playfields. Many of my original games have this on the PF inserts, some of my worse original games seem to have it on every insert. When we started noticing it on our new reproduction PFs we immediately started making small changes to try and isolate what was going on. We made the insert holes larger to eliminate the chance that it was pressure from the wood, we cut them lower into the PF so they would get sanded less, we tried examining the inserts first to try and spot defects, we tried different glues in case it was a reaction with the glue, we tried different clear coats. We have tried everything and to this day STILL try little things. In reality, after speaking with Foremost and sending them pictures it appears to be stress lines from the molding process. The injection molders they use are up to 800 ton units which forces molten plastic into tiny cavity molds then they are forced cooled and in a couple of seconds they are ejected and the process repeated. They think the lines we are seeing are lines that are formed during the cooling process. The lines are normally difficult to see, but in this case we are a bit of a victim of our own success as we always want everything to be near perfect so we actually go to GREAT lengths polishing each insert with finer and finer grit sandpaper. When the clear hits the insert it is PERFECTLY clear, which really highlights ANY issue. That of course is not the way most people who make PFs do it. Gene uses a slightly milky polyester clear to seal the PFs which tends to make the inserts not quite as clear, even a tiny bit milky which of course masks the problem a bit. We even tried using inserts from different suppliers....from Mirco in Germany and there was no difference in them and recently ordered from still a different supplier. I have some further ideas and will of course be trying them out on a small number of boards so that my possibly flawed fix doesn't ruin too many boards. Hopefully, we'll find a way to isolate the inserts from the clear which is what I think highlights the issue. But of course, we need clear on the inserts so we'll never truly eliminate it. Our next attempt is to try and use a thicker based clear as a first layer, something that will sit on top of the inserts and not highlight the stress marks. Of course using a different clear first raises the specter of adhesion issues between different clears. That's why we only test on a few PFs at a time. If that fails my next idea is to actually stop polishing our inserts so much which would have the effect of making the inserts a little less transparent which would to some extent hide this effect and have the added bonus of making it harder to actually see a light bulb filament though the top side of the PF. Something I never really had an issue with on my old NOS PFs as the inserts just weren't that clear. Our new ones are just too clear and any issues just leap out at you.

If anyone out there has some ideas, feel free to shoot me an email as even though we have tried many things over the years and continue to try new things you never know if someone else has an idea that just might work.

Mike

Mike,

I appreciate the response and what you guys are doing for the hobby but the OP's PF should have never gone out the door as a first with the 'S' insert looking like that.

If I paid full pop and got a field with inserts worse than my original it would be sent back and I would expect you to ship it on your dime.

Of course and that's ALWAYS your option. We stand 100% behind everything we make. If you don't like, send it back. We try to present real pictures of an average product and not a cherry picked one.

There used to be a time when you could cherry pick. When Greg and I made the Fathoms so long ago there were all so different that finding two that were perfect was impossible, in fact, finding two that were very nice was nearly impossible. Now, Kevin and I don't even cherry pick for ourselves as the difference between the best and the worst is usually very small and often is something cosmetic with the wood itself, a blemish etc. We still get small issues with printing and the inserts have always been an issue. But really, why some inserts have the crackling issue more than others is still a mystery but from the information given by the insert maker does make sense as the issue seems worse with larger inserts, and they would be the ones whose dimensions change the most as they are forced cooled before being ejected from the mold. So the lines are in EVERY insert, but our process and the clear seems to highlight the issue more in some inserts than in others. We have to find a way to minimize this effect and I think having the inserts super polished and glass clear is not helping.

We are ALWAYS trying to improve everything we make and it's nuts to think otherwise, we don't like having anything turn out less that perfect anymore than the guy who buys it. In fact we like it less as we have to deal with every issue that guys have and anything we can do to minimize the issues is a HUGE step in the right direction. We WANT to make parts that you guys are over hill with and not parts you're not happy with. We have made some very expensive upgrades to wood, processes and equipment to be able to make the parts better and better.

Mike

CPR.

I received mine and it has a couple of these crackly inserts on it. To me it gives the
PF character and doesn't bother me. The artwork and CC on the PF is gorgeous. Thanks for making them.

I also sent my cash out and am waiting for my pf to arrive. Insert crinkles or not, i will be happy. Ive been waiting for a long time and would dread the thought of removing the mylar on another system 11 machine after the last abortion.

It's only pinball. I am very thankful CPR even exists and is making playfields. Sorry you're not happy, but as someone here educated me early on; the enemy of good is 'perfect'. Nothing is ever perfect. Even the most amazing games that come out of HEP or whereever will always have something. And nothing lasts forever either. Put the playfield in the game, enjoy it, share it with people.

I understand paying $800 is a lot for a playfield, but I think given the amount of time and effort it takes to make the playfields, that the price is fair. There's going to be imperfections. I'm fully prepared for that when my Taxi playfield comes this year.

So if Whirlwind in OK shape fully functional is going for 1400-1700 or so, if you swap the playfield, do you think we will get the full $800 added value?

Personally I would pay the extra 800 for one that had already been swapped. Too late for me now but i think this PF will really add to the value of the machine.

From other conversations on here, probably not.

You'll rarely get your money back on a swapout, unless you place no value on your time. If you're planning to sell the game instead of keep it, you're better off selling the new playfield with the game. Buyers simply do not understand the value of the swap labor ($500-$1000, depending on how much cleaning and tweaking you do).

Really?...You do Playfield Swaps that cheap?...Hell 10 years ago I couln't find anybody to a KISS swap (approx. 20 hours) for under $ 2,000.....So I did it myself (my first playfield swap)....Which was a great learning experience. Since then I have done a dozen swaps and now I see why everybody wanted $ 2,000 + for the Labor. If I was to do a swap for someone I would Start at $ 2,000 for a Classic Bally/Classic Stern and go from there....later model WPC, System 11's, ect would be priced higher....

Stu

Problem is the process used to make inserts. Been like that since day 1 of using injection molding. I made all of the inserts for Forbidden planet using SLA Rapid prototyping in VeroClear (Objet). This removes "cold spotting" and eventual cracking of inserts due to induced stress (since the UV light both hardens and anneals the insert). Also removes problems of retooling for non existent inserts. Only real downsides i have found is that you can't do colours (but I got round this by coating them in glass paint), is relatively expensive and slow .
It's really out of the hands of CPR as you won't see cracks until too late in the process but I'd happily RP some inserts for them to test.

I totally agree, $1000 would be the minimum for me on most games. One of the dumbest things I ever did was offer to do a Centaur playfield swap in exchange for a repro "Say It Again" board and some time on the game. It was a months-long death march, and I only kept my word to show my son that it's the right thing to do.

My last swap was CSI, and it was much easier than an 80's pin. No ground braid, and the large components were connectorized.

yeah I did my Centaur swap and I can honestly say that Centaur is one of the most diffacult of the Classic Bally's to swap....so much going on under that playfield....

Agreed, and I've done two recently..!

Firepower was my 1st playfield swap - and DAMN that ground braid!! I'm about to tackle Paragon, but the thought of removing all those ground braid staples is making me procrastinate big time.

Don't reuse the original braid, replace it with new.

I've heard this suggestion before.....but ...I'm scared I'll screw something up.