(Topic ID: 143882)

My Art-Grail Pick-up *OR* A Family Pinball Vay-cay: '64 Bally Hay-Ride

By RyanClaytor

8 years ago


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  • 296 posts
  • 55 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by dmarston
  • Topic is favorited by 17 Pinsiders

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There are 296 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
#251 7 years ago
Quoted from Joey_N:

time consuming

Hey, a party! ...and here I am with no time to respond to anyone. Next week!

For now, I'm off to pick-up a little something this weekend.

In the meantime, I did a bit of cleaning this evening and manged to get this much complete:

IMG_7615 (resized).jpgIMG_7615 (resized).jpg

Just a few comparisons...but as always...SOOO difficult to adequately photograph those ball swirls in the "before" shots. Anyhow, here they are:

BeforeAfte (resized).jpgBeforeAfte (resized).jpgBeforeAfte2 (resized).jpgBeforeAfte2 (resized).jpgBeforeAfte3 (resized).jpgBeforeAfte3 (resized).jpg

Here's hoping you enjoyed zooming-in.

#252 7 years ago

Looking great. Man that machine has some dorky guys to go along with the hot chicks.

1 week later
#253 7 years ago

Been a little busy. Be back soon.

1 week later
#254 7 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Nice try. You're qualified! Now just respond to my PM offering to give you free stuff.

Ryan I wanted to be sure to thank you for the gift you sent me for the #200 contest. We all enjoyed your book. Didn't realize you were from out CA way previously!

I have successfully posted an animated gif too as you probably saw in your other thread. Now I'm going to try it from an iPad lets see if it works....

BC3DBC9A-8D67-4DCA-9E3D-ECCF5F569A63-760-000001080B8E339D_tmp.pngBC3DBC9A-8D67-4DCA-9E3D-ECCF5F569A63-760-000001080B8E339D_tmp.png

(Nope)

1 week later
#255 7 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

Ryan I wanted to be sure to thank you for the gift you sent me for the #200 contest. We all enjoyed your book.

Awesome! Glad to hear it! ...and thanks for keepin' up with this thread o' mine. Really appreciate it.

Speaking of [not] keeping up with this thread, I've been doin' some artwork in the background:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-pinball-podcast-100th-episode-anniversary-commemorative-artwork

Pretty excited about it!

Hope to be back here with the customary minuscule updates you've come to expect.

#256 7 years ago

After a month of getting sidetracked, I did some more M.E.-ing today. IMG_8215.jpgIMG_8215.jpgIMG_8215 copy.jpgIMG_8215 copy.jpg

Some of these comparisons are easier to show the before/after difference than others. In the latter pictures here, I found it difficult to really capture the"Before" ball swirls. You might be able to see it a bit better with a zoom, but still the pictures don't quick capture reality in these next cases:

IMG_8215G.jpgIMG_8215G.jpgIMG_8215B.jpgIMG_8215B.jpg

Finally, I'm getting closer to a completely cleaned PF:

playfield.jpgplayfield.jpg

...and I'm really pleased with the results:

IMG_8236 (resized).jpgIMG_8236 (resized).jpg

'Night!

#257 7 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

Looking great. Man that machine has some dorky guys to go along with the hot chicks.

Reminds me last time this hobby had a "post your wife playing pinball" thread. Some of those pickups were more incredible that they happened than a rare game pickup! Just kidding, just kidding.

-------

Great work Ryan! It looks FANTASTIC! (Also, great job not totally destroying the playfield artwork, that magic eraser needs some like nordic mythology or something to go along with it owning it and using it: "use it wisely with good intentions... but do not abuse it or you will face it's wrath...", you definitely can't go overboard or you will have a very very very regretful day. Looks like you did a good job at balancing this out!)

#258 7 years ago

It does look great so far. I was able to see the swirls in the before pictures, if you know what you are looking for you can see them.

The next question will be what to do after all the cleaning is done. The most protection would be a clear coat. Another option would be mylar or other plastic protector. Or, you could wax it and play it, But I don't know if I would want to try that after all of that ME cleaning. The paint will be pretty exposed I would think.

5 months later
#259 6 years ago

hiiii.gifhiiii.gif

Pardon my absence. Nice to be back. I'm still REAL into this game, but gosh-darn-heck life and stuff. Nothing bad, just busy.

boring.gifboring.gif

But I did a thing!

boredKim-Kardashian-yawn-gif-bored.gifboredKim-Kardashian-yawn-gif-bored.gif

...and exhibited my work at this thing last weekend...

boringScott.gifboringScott.gif

...and finished hosting and producing the first season of this thing...

boredSo.gifboredSo.gif

Oh yah, and directed the 10th anniversary of this thing.

boringScroll.gifboringScroll.gif

Let's see...did anything else happen the last 5 months...

boringStare.pngboringStare.png

Probably, but maybe pinball, huh?

----------

When last we spoke, I was paralyzed with fear.

Quoted from xsvtoys:

The next question will be what to do after all the cleaning is done.

scared.gifscared.gif

Right.

I'm ashamed to admit how much time I've spent fretting over this. I guess there are essentially 4 ways to go:

1) Play on it as is and expect the worst hope for the best.
2) Wax frequently to protect
3) Make a playfield mylar
4) Clear-coat it

...and after months of stewing I've come to these conclusions:

1) Nope
2) Yep
3) Hate it.
4) I'm too cheap and fearful.

I actually called around a number of clear-coat-ers to price this out. I think I'd be willing to give it a go if I hadn't heard so many stories of adverse clear-coat reactions from older machines. Plus, taking the waxing route allows me to go-ahead and clear-coat it at some point, should I decide that is the thing to do. Since the main area of repair is under the pop-bumpers, I've ordered some mylar rings I'll put down after airbrushing and before waxing.

In the meantime, I'd like to do some...

Quoted from RyanClaytor:

...airbrushing...

...that I was mentioning and testing so very long ago. To that end, I purchased some masking material, measured the area...

measure.jpgmeasure.jpg

...made the vector files I needed...

illy.jpgilly.jpg

...and found a source for cutting said material at the university where I teach.

IMG_20170503_161930 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_161930 (resized).jpg

Once I got home, I weeded the areas to airbrush...

IMG_20170503_174022 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_174022 (resized).jpg

...applied the transfer mylar...

IMG_20170503_174219 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_174219 (resized).jpg

...pulled off the paper on the back of the mask to reveal the adhesive area...

IMG_20170503_174237 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_174237 (resized).jpg

...which allows me to accurately position it without the piece flopping all around or trying to center that middle portion.

IMG_20170503_174359 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_174359 (resized).jpg

However, an unfortunate thing happened once the vinyl mask was applied...

IMG_20170503_174534 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_174534 (resized).jpg

...the mask was not cut accurately. If you look ^^^ above, that outter edge should sit dead in the middle of that black keyline. It was outside of it.

Then another unfortunate thing happened when the transfer vinyl was removed...

IMG_20170503_174505 (resized).jpgIMG_20170503_174505 (resized).jpg

...the blue paint of the pop ring pulled up along with the mask itself. But, I'm actually looking at this as a positive. If that paint is coming up, it's not stable AT ALL. I think I'll probably end up sanding it completely off and airbrushing the bare wood. Since there is actually bare wood around that area, I don't see that as being a problem.

Okay, so back to the other problem, the inaccurate mask. Where did this go wrong? In an effort to find out if it was

a) my measurements
b) my files
~or~
c) the cutter...

...I printed out the vector file of those same masked areas on my black and white laserjet printer and compared them with my vinyl masks:

IMG_20170509_112553 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_112553 (resized).jpg

While the print-out seems accurate, the vinyl mask appears to have printed larger:

IMG_20170509_112529 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_112529 (resized).jpg

That seemed to be the case with the rest of the masks as well.

Outter keyline:

IMG_20170509_112449 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_112449 (resized).jpg

Nope:

IMG_20170509_112436 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_112436 (resized).jpg

Inner black fill:

IMG_20170509_112754 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_112754 (resized).jpg

IMG_20170509_112738 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_112738 (resized).jpg

nope.gifnope.gif

Bummer. But at least I'm reasonably certain that I narrowed down the culprit to the cutter. SO! There is a different cutter on campus, one that is a large flat area, not a sheet-fed version. I'm curious if the flatbed cutter might be more accurate (since it doesn't have to move the vinyl around while it cuts). If not, I'll likely need to resize my files manually and measure after they're cut to find the correctly-sized version. Not ideal, but it'll get done. ...and worst case scenario, if they're a 1/16"-1/32" off and I've completely sanded down the pop bumper paint, no one will know the difference anyway (except us). If it comes to that, I'll need each of you to...

brassy.gifbrassy.gif

Happy summer. Good to be back. Wish I could promise daily updates, but I'm gonna keep this low pressure and not hold myself to that.

soon.gifsoon.gif

#260 6 years ago

The cutter, by design, will cut outside the edges of the lines you set. Resize as appropriate is the correct answer.

#261 6 years ago

And welcome back from the dead, darn it!

#262 6 years ago
Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

The cutter, by design, will cut outside the edges of the lines you set. Resize as appropriate is the correct answer.

Good to know. Not a big deal on something like a cabinet stencil, but at a smaller scale it kinda borked the job. I'll resize the file for my second attempt tomorrow.

Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

And welcome back from the dead, darn it!

thriller.gifthriller.gif

Feels good to be back. We'll see if I can keep it up with any regularity.

#263 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

I think I'll probably end up sanding it completely off and airbrushing the bare wood.

IMG_20170509_221618 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_221618 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_222556 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_222556 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_225534 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_225534 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_230122 (resized).jpgIMG_20170509_230122 (resized).jpg

#264 6 years ago

Ok so my question is why use all of those tiny key line masks? Why not paint the whole bumper area black for the outer key line? Then make a smaller mask for the blue and another smaller mask for the final black in the center. Lightly sand between coats to prevent build up.

Edit: or do it in two sprays. Paint the whole area black and then paint the blue ring on top.

I imagine that little sliver of bare wood between the blue and inner black isn't seen with the bumper in place. Even if it was I think I could live without it.

Also I think your slightly bigger masks will work since you sanded that area completely.

#265 6 years ago

You're gonna hafta clear......one way or the other

After reading Vid's thread over and over and reading all the ways that many others have done this, I've come to the conclusion that the only good way to redo a playfield is with multiple coats of clear, as described in Vid's thread. One to lock down the original paint, another to lock down your paint, one to lock down decals, etc.

Just like you, I haven't found a good way to get clears done and I don't want to try it myself, but I want to restore a playfield like this so I am trying to figure out a way.

#266 6 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

You're gonna hafta clear......one way or the other
After reading Vid's thread over and over and reading all the ways that many others have done this, I've come to the conclusion that the only good way to redo a playfield is with multiple coats of clear, as described in Vid's thread. One to lock down the original paint, another to lock down your paint, one to lock down decals, etc.
Just like you, I haven't found a good way to get clears done and I don't want to try it myself, but I want to restore a playfield like this so I am trying to figure out a way.

Many people have had very good success with rattle cans. I've been wanting to get a compressor and spray gun but I think I'll try my first with rattle cans. Wait for a sunny day and do it outside.

I also think you should clear Ryan.

#267 6 years ago

All my EM's get the clear, but I have a local restorer do it. Big knowledge hill to climb there.

#268 6 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

Why not...do it in two sprays. Paint the whole area black and then paint the blue ring on top.

Not a bad thought. I sincerely appreciate the feedback (not just lip-service, you know me and my threads, user feedback is how I learn), but for a few reasons I'll likely stick to the other route:

1) If there was a large black circle painted first, then I had to position the blue circle atop that, I would have a healthy challenge trying to align it to the exact center. If I misregistered at all I would have an uneven outer key-line.

2) If I painted blue on top of black it would obliterate the blue. I did some tests a while back in which I sprayed blue paint directly on bare wood (a relatively light color of wood, actually), and then tried a section that was underbased with white and then sprayed the identical blue color on top of it:

comp (resized).jpgcomp (resized).jpg

It probably goes without saying that the section on the left is underbased with white, and is far more true to the color I sprayed. So, I could probably spray black, then white, then blue, but even if I could somehow avoid...

Quoted from RyanClaytor:

...an uneven outer key-line...

...that leaves me with point number:

3) I'd like to keep this paint job as flat as possible. With all those layers, I fear a tall build-up of paint.

Anyhow, hope that helps.

Also...

Quoted from xsvtoys:

You're gonna hafta clear.

Quoted from dmbjunky:

I also think you should clear Ryan.

Quoted from NicoVolta:

All my EM's get the clear

About this...ha-ha! I know I'm likely being overly concerned about this clear-coating process (I mean, which process have I not...really), but I've heard horror stories of clear-coat not reacting well with particular paints or lacquer or dust or WHATEVER! I have a diamond in the rough, and my sincere aim is to keep it that way. My thoughts are these:

1) Mylar the pop area once I retouch in order to keep it protected.
2) Wax the playfield...REAL GOOD.
3) Keep a close eye on it in a home environment.

Remember, this is my baby-boo. I'm not gonna let her get beat-up. I'm not gonna put her on route. If I'm being honest with myself, I'm probably too selfish and protective to take her to a show. So, in a low-play environment, I'll be able to see the first signs of wear and make a plan to deal with it accordingly. Perhaps that will involve reconsidering my thoughts on the clear-coat process. ...but perhaps if I maintain a proper waxing regiment (I'm poised to set calendar reminders), I won't have to worry about wear.

Them's mah thots raught now,
Ryan

#269 6 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

Also I think your slightly bigger masks will work since you sanded that area completely.

I'm starting to think this, too.

#270 6 years ago

I know you're trying to do it as a paint exercise ... but you could also go the coloured vinyl cut decals route

Your sanded areas are bringing Back all too vividly memories of my C 37 episode !!!

Great stuff Ryan – thanks for continuing to post on this and your other topics

#271 6 years ago

Nobody does a restoration thread like Ryan Claytor. Accept no substitutes!

Welcome back Ryan!

#272 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

There is a different cutter on campus, one that is a large flat area, not a sheet-fed version.

IMG_20170510_151520 (resized).jpgIMG_20170510_151520 (resized).jpg

Quoted from RyanClaytor:

. I'm curious if the flatbed cutter might be more accurate (since it doesn't have to move the vinyl around while it cuts).

Boy howdy, was it!

IMG_20170510_202239 (resized).jpgIMG_20170510_202239 (resized).jpg

It also had a sheet of low tac adhesive to keep the substrate in place:

IMG_20170510_153058 (resized).jpgIMG_20170510_153058 (resized).jpg

...and some knobs and dials for fine tuning cuts:

IMG_20170510_161607 (resized).jpgIMG_20170510_161607 (resized).jpg

...which I was able to experiment with to find some desirable settings for fine line cuts (for another project):

IMG_20170510_161549 (resized).jpgIMG_20170510_161549 (resized).jpg

So now I'm confident in this newfound cutter and have a bunch of accurate circles cut.

Woo!

However...

Quoted from dmbjunky:

I think your slightly bigger masks will work since you sanded that area completely.

I agree. I'm thinking I might actually enlarge these cuts ever so slightly (purposefully this time) just to ensure that the paint completely covers the light area of wood. My OCD might pitch a fit if there was a little halo of lighter-colored wood peeking out from underneath.

#273 6 years ago

I just found this thread. Welcome to the fraternity of people trying to determine the identity of the "1960s Bally Mystery Artist"!

Quoted from AlexF:

I've heard speculation from a fellow collector that Louis Reynard is the unknown mystery artist. Sometimes credited as George Molentin on these 60s Williams and Bally machines. No way to verify that info though.

I can at least verify that it is ABSOLUTELY NOT George Molentin! While he was still alive, I cornered George Molentin one year at Pinball Expo and walked him over to one of the "Mystery Artist" games (Trio, I think). He said it was not his work, and he did not know who the artist was. I collaborate with Jay Stafford and Sam Harvey on trying to answer this. We need some Bally insider of the era to tell us more.
.................David Marston

#274 6 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

I just found this thread. Welcome to the fraternity of people trying to determine the identity of the "1960s Bally Mystery Artist"!

I can at least verify that it is ABSOLUTELY NOT George Molentin! While he was still alive, I cornered George Molentin one year at Pinball Expo and walked him over to one of the "Mystery Artist" games (Trio, I think). He said it was not his work, and he did not know who the artist was. I collaborate with Jay Stafford and Sam Harvey on trying to answer this. We need some Bally insider of the era to tell us more.
.................David Marston

That's interesting. Did Bally not keep any records from that time?

#275 6 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

I just found this thread. Welcome to the fraternity of people trying to determine the identity of the "1960s Bally Mystery Artist"!

I can at least verify that it is ABSOLUTELY NOT George Molentin! While he was still alive, I cornered George Molentin one year at Pinball Expo and walked him over to one of the "Mystery Artist" games (Trio, I think). He said it was not his work, and he did not know who the artist was. I collaborate with Jay Stafford and Sam Harvey on trying to answer this. We need some Bally insider of the era to tell us more.
.................David Marston

Keep at it Dave. I have to say the mystery artist is probably my favorite with George coming in second. It would be great if we could finally discover who he was.

#276 6 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

I just found this thread.

Yay!

Quoted from dmarston:

Welcome to the fraternity of people trying to determine the identity of the "1960s Bally Mystery Artist"!

Nice to know I'm not alone in this search.

Quoted from dmarston:

I can at least verify that it is ABSOLUTELY NOT George Molentin!

Good to know. I had high suspicions it was not him, but nice to have that confirmed from a first-party source.

Quoted from dmarston:

(Trio, I think).

Hm. Tough to say on that title. There's not a lot of figurative work on the playfield. (Weird title, that they ripped the musical instruments from the playfield artwork on the production games! Makes it look awfully barren.) Anyhow, the figures on the backglass look different to me. Wide-set eyes and anatomy that doesn't quite live up to the Hay-Ride/Harvest artist (in my eye). ...but maybe s/he was rushed and on deadline. It happens. *shrugs*

The titles I'm pretty certain are by the same artist are Bullfight and Sheba (at least the playfield artwork on Sheba...the backglass figures look more Molentin to me).

To complicate matters, I talked with Jim Patla yesterday and asked him specifically about this artist. We looked at Hay-Ride/Harvest, as well as Bullfight and Sheba and he could not recall who that might be. So there's another Bally connection who won't be able to help identify this artist.

Quoted from dmbjunky:

That's interesting. Did Bally not keep any records from that time?

You'd think SOMEONE would be able to figure this out. However, Patla's closest estimation is that it was someone at Ad Posters...but who knows which of their stable of artists may have worked on it...or if Ad Posters even has any records remaining? I sure would love to know.

Quoted from AlexF:

It would be great if we could finally discover who he was.

Amen, my fellow brothers of the Bally Mystery Artist fraternity. (I think a T-shirt might be in order.)

#277 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

(I think a T-shirt might be in order.)

A t-shirt from you is always in order.

#278 6 years ago

Colsond3!!! You're like Casper the friendly ghost. I never know when or where you'll appear, but it's always a pleasant surprise.

#279 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Colsond3!!! You're like Casper the friendly ghost. I never know when or where you'll appear, but it's always a pleasant surprise.

Too funny...I've been following your thread here since the beginning. I'd jump back into the project thread, but I'm about 1,000 posts behind and already beyond capacity. Preparing for Pinfest kept me busy, but getting back to some level of normalcy now. And I have no idea who this mystery Bally artist is...but I'm looking around.

#280 6 years ago
Quoted from Colsond3:

I've been following your thread here since the beginning.

I'd better watch what I say.

Quoted from Colsond3:

I'd jump back into the project thread, but I'm about 1,000 posts behind...

The past few days are all that matter in that thread, anyway. Everything else is long gone.

Quoted from Colsond3:

...and already beyond capacity.

You show great restraint. Your wife should be proud.

Quoted from Colsond3:

Preparing for Pinfest kept me busy

SO wish I could have gone. Wait, wait, wait...how's it go? "If only I were closer!!!" *LOL* That line just isn't as satisfying without you in the project thread, man.

Anyhow, the [conflicting] VFW show this year held some real treats as well. I sincerely hope to attend A-town one year.

Quoted from Colsond3:

I have no idea who this mystery Bally artist is...but I'm looking around.

You would be a hero to many if you could unearth that secret. I think I'd HAVE to make a brotherhood shirt if you made that discovery.

#281 6 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

Did Bally not keep any records from that time?

Bally probably did.

Ad Posters likely also did. They were bought by one of the sons of the founders of Ad Posters, Thomas A. Grant. They, in turn, were bought by Illinois Pinball.

I'm assuming all the records are now in the same place with PPS, but finding them is likely going to take a lot of effort.

#282 6 years ago

I thought one of the two commercial art places that did pinball work burned down? Must have been the other one?

#283 6 years ago

Reproduction burned down. Not once, but twice!

The second time, Gottlieb switched their business to Ad Posters, too.

#284 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

The titles I'm pretty certain are by the same artist are Bullfight and Sheba (at least the playfield artwork on Sheba...the backglass figures look more Molentin to me).

I agree about Sheba. I think this artist did: Bongo, Sky Divers, 2 in 1, Big Day, Harvest/Hayride, Bullfight, Sheba (as qualified above), Discotek, Trio, Blue Ribbon, and maybe others.
.................David Marston

#285 6 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

I think this artist did: Bongo, Sky Divers, 2 in 1, Big Day, Harvest/Hayride, Bullfight, Sheba (as qualified above), Discotek, Trio, Blue Ribbon, and maybe others.

Hi David,

Thanks for chiming in. This topic is one that occupies my thoughts, as artists, history, pinball, and the intersection of those three, interest me a great deal. To that end, I thought I'd throw my two cents in here. First, for some context, I'll list the assumed titles chronologically:

Chronology
Bongo: Project Date - January 22, 1963
Sky Divers: Project Date - February 05, 1964
2 in 1: Project Date - May 02, 1964
Big Day: Project Date - May 28, 1964
Bullfight: Project Date - October 24, 1964
Harvest/Hay-Ride: Project Date - August/Sept, 1964
Sheba: Project Date - December 23, 1964
Discotek: Project Date - May 21, 1965
Trio: Project Date: July 27, 1965
Blue Ribbon: Project Date - August 25, 1965

Then I'll go through them alphabetically (in order to more easily locate titles) to discuss my thoughts:

- 2 in 1: I would agree. There's a high probability 2 in 1 and Hay-Ride were done by the same artist. I did a comparison shot of the Hay-Ride and 2-in-1 faces a while back, which looked like this:

comp.jpgcomp.jpg

...and a small write-up, which went like this:

Quoted from RyanClaytor:

Both Hay-Ride and 2 in 1 are done by uncredited artists, so we'll likely never know. However, artists will usually have sort of a signature style to their faces/people. I've heard suggestions that Hay-Ride might be done by other known artists in pinball of the time, but I'm not convinced. However, if you look at 2 in 1's females next to those of Hay-Ride:

21HayComp.jpg

...from where I'm standing, I'd say there's a definite possibility. The eyes of the "2 in 1" queen on the left look really similar to those of the brunette from "Hay-Ride", as do the noses, the poofy, sketchy bangs and the way the hair flows. Granted, the Hay-Ride gals had more room on the playfield for this mystery artist to get a little more detailed (with the multiple colors for shines in the hair and shadows on the faces), but I'd say there's a high chance these two games shared an artist. Just my opinion, though.
Still wish I knew who this artist was, though.

I'd also say that, while this is likely another piece in the Bally mystery artist's portfolio, I'd argue it's not one of his strongest. The composition seems far less environmentally conceived (like Hay-Ride/Harvest or Sheba), and more small elements scattered around the playfield.

- Band Wagon: You may have noticed this was absent from the chronology listed above. I am going to respectfully disagree on this one.

image-35 (resized).jpgimage-35 (resized).jpg
image-34 (resized).jpgimage-34 (resized).jpg

The female faces and body postures on this look too stiff and identical to be the Bally mystery artist. They look more like a Stenholm face than a mystery artist face. Look at the fluid body postures on Hay-Ride and compare those to the manikin-esque, staccato, poses on the Band Wagon backglass. If I were writing a pinball history book, I would not include this title in the mystery artist's oeuvre.

-Big Day: Wow. This is an interesting playfield...

image-A (resized).jpgimage-A (resized).jpg

...and I would agree with you quite readily on this title. I talk a lot about the Bally mystery artist's "environmentally conceived" playfields in which s/he transforms the whole layout into a singular environment. No doubt that's been done here. The faces are hard to compare because 1) a lot of them have masks on and 2) they're a lot smaller in scale than many of her/his other more recognizable works (Bullfight, Hay-Ride, Sheba). But just look at everything that's artistically crammed into the bottom 1/3 of that playfield: an arc of 9 full-sized inserts, 14 separate faces, and several figures IN ADDITION TO A CARRIAGE! *phew* So, while the clothing and faces aren't as detailed as we might be accustom to seeing, I call scale on this one and would happy concede this as the Bally mystery artist's work.

-Blue Ribbon: This playfield is a difficult one to make a judgement call on. It's basically littered with inserts that were illustrated into a giant shield:

BlueRibbonPF.jpgBlueRibbonPF.jpg

...not much room for illustration, but there's a goodly amount of plant life strewn about, which the Bally mystery artist seemed to fancy, and that big plastic in the upper left has a well illustrated female, so I could get on board with this being a mystery artist work. The backglass also used that uncommon metallic gold ink that was also seen on Sheba and Trio. Not to mention the garments worn by the figures are either flowing or a lot of attention was paid to the ruffles...which also seem to be present on mystery artist work. Not my favorite work by the guy/gal, but this is likely their work.

-Bongo: I'd probably agree on this one, too:

Playfield (resized).jpgPlayfield (resized).jpg

That playfield is an abomination of color fields and concentric circles, the likes of Christian Marche's work at Williams in the 70's. Yeesh. With that said, the lower plastics have that distinctive interest in flora, and some gorgeous figurative work on the upper plastics complete with detailed and flowing clothing. The backglass has more of the same things I just mentioned, so, this is a likely candidate.

-Bullfight: Hecks. Yes. Look at those giant figures on the bottom of the playfield, like you'd see in Hay-Ride/Harvest and Sheba, a couple games I feel as though are PREH-TEE unquestionably the same artist.

image-12 (resized).jpgimage-12 (resized).jpg

Also, there are a healthy number of similar elements in the figures' faces, many of which I listed in the 2-in-1 description.

- Discotek: This one is really tough for me. On one hand, you have that playfield, which doesn't have much in the way of figurative subjects, so that's a tough call.

image-2 (2) (resized).jpgimage-2 (2) (resized).jpg

Really, it doesn't tell us much. So I'll give a big shrug to the pf. The backglass, however, is another tough call. It has a number of figures to compare, but there are elements that make me think...MAYBE THAT'S THE ARTIST! ...and other elements that make me think, not a chance.

- Maybe that's the artist! 1) The faces look pretty accomplished, 2) the postures, by in large, have more implied movement to them, as you would see in Hay-Ride, 3) There's that characteristic hair-with-volume that the artist is so great at.

~However~

- Not a chance! 1) Occasionally the postures will appear uncharacteristically awkward, this guy for example...

discotek.jpgdiscotek.jpg

...what in the world is going on with his legs. I mean, I like to dance and I understand a good ole' fashion James Brown "HIT MEH!!!" punctuated by a sweet spin-move, but this ain't it. Also, a pose like this...

discotek2.jpgdiscotek2.jpg

Feels so much more forced than the fluid, relaxed, motion found on the Hay-Ride playfield...ESPECIALLY since Discotek had a production date AFTER Hay-Ride. Typically artists get better over time, not worse. Also in the "Not a chance" category,

2) There's this slightly feminine quality to the men's faces on the mystery artist's work. There's sort of a lipstick look to those guys on Hay-Ride and a slightly softer feel. This is one I can chalk-up to experiential learning (maybe the artist told the colorist to pull back on the male lip-gloss or maybe there was a different colorist who colored this in such a flat/bland way, but all this struck me as...different.

Ultimately, I'd put this one firmly in the maybe category.

-Sheba: If ever there was a "hell yeah", this playfield is it. Huge figures. Accomplished faces and bodies. Fluid/relaxed postures. Environmentally conceived layout (just look at those extended trees moving up the playfield to the star-lit sky on the plastics...*gasp*).

IMG_20170519_225146 (resized).jpgIMG_20170519_225146 (resized).jpg
IMG_20170518_202644 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202644 (resized).jpg
IMG_20170518_202631 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202631 (resized).jpg
IMG_20170518_202618 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202618 (resized).jpg
IMG_20170518_202608 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202608 (resized).jpg

In my eyes, this is unquestionably the Bally mystery artist and in my humble estimation, I'd rank it as his second-best playfield illustration...VERY VERY close to that of Hay-Ride. The backglass, however (as mentioned before), I wholely believe is done by another artist. I even showed this to my PhD Art Historian wife and without prompting she immediately thought the same thing. We also have this in our collection now (as of a couple days ago) so I feel like I can speak to this title with even more certainty.

- Sky Divers: Figures are passable and more recognizable on the backglass than the playfield, but I think the title actually gives this one away. There's this uniquely mystery artist quality to the fat, san-serif, block letters, the interior string of...SOMETHING (diamonds, squiggles, whatever) running inside the letterforms, and slight drop shadow that makes me think, sure, this was probably another mystery artist package:

skydivers.jpgskydivers.jpg

hay-ride.jpghay-ride.jpg

- Trio: I'd put this one in the "Probably" category. It doesn't scream out "YES!" to me like Bullfight, Hay-Ride, and Sheba do, but there are more check marks in my "probably" category than "probably not".

Probably Not: Playfield, again, is not environmentally conceived but rather haphazardly composed, but I understand it doesn't have to be every time (deadlines, motivation, etc)...so...maybe. Instruments get kind of flat/two-dimensional:

trio.jpgtrio.jpg

trio2.jpgtrio2.jpg

Not to mention, the backglass seems awfully sparse. Just a huge field of blue with some flat gold up top and flat vertical rainbow bars flanking that.

trioBG.jpgtrioBG.jpg

Probably: On the backglass you'll find accomplished and detailed clothing/drapery, full-flowing hair, similar construction of facial features that you would find on games in the "YES!" column, and even use of metalic gold on the backglass...which is sort of a rare use of color (in my experience) and one that is found on the Sheba playfield.

#286 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

[Re: Trio] Probably: On the backglass you'll find accomplished and detailed clothing/drapery, full-flowing hair, similar construction of facial features that you would find on games in the "YES!" column,...

I usually go for the mouth and chin renditions as my first indicator, and those ladies on the Trio backglass definitely have the mouth and chin that is characteristic of the Mystery Artist (and decidedly non-Molentin).

I think deadlines are an important factor. For playfields, it could also be the case that Ted Zale insisted on art that showcased some particular curve or flow that he considered a highlight of the layout.
.................David Marston

#287 6 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

I usually go for the mouth and chin renditions as my first indicator, and those ladies on the Trio backglass definitely have the mouth and chin that is characteristic of the Mystery Artist (and decidedly non-Molentin).

I have a feeling we're treading in dangerous territory of getting into a minutia war, but regardless...I actually thought the mouths of the "Trio" gals looked a bit...different...than those of the titles that I would dub as the classic/undeniable trilogy of the Bally mystery artist (Hay-Ride, Sheba [playfield], and Bullfight), but ultimately I'd be willing to chalk it up to the unusual pose (singing) that isn't present on any of the other titles and maintain my ruling of "probably". Ha-ha!

Thanks for discussing, David!

#288 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

I have a feeling we're treading in dangerous territory of getting into a minutia war,

In today's society, I'll take this over the real world outside. No politics and family friendly. And somewhat interesting even!

Shawn

1 week later
#289 6 years ago

IMG_20170531_214528 (resized).jpgIMG_20170531_214528 (resized).jpg

I realize this likely looks the same as my last update, but I swear it's different. I decided to expand all the circles by, like, a nanometer so that they would be sure to cover the lighter wood when airbrushed. So that involved a bit of measuring, resizing, and revisiting the campus cutter.

I'm excited to try these out, but I'm about to embark on a couple weeks of vay-cay, so this project will continue progressing at a progressively glacial pace.

In the meantime, I'll leave you with some glamour shots of my new (to me) 1965 Bally Sheba:

IMG_20170518_202236 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202236 (resized).jpgIMG_20170519_225146 (resized).jpgIMG_20170519_225146 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202644 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202644 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202631 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202631 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202618 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202618 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202608 (resized).jpgIMG_20170518_202608 (resized).jpg

#290 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

I realize this likely looks the same as my last update, but I swear it's different. I decided to expand all the circles by, like, a nanometer so that they would be sure to cover the lighter wood when airbrushed. So that involved a bit of measuring, resizing, and revisiting the campus cutter.
I'm excited to try these out, but I'm about to embark on a couple weeks of vay-cay, so this project will continue progressing at a progressively glacial pace.
In the meantime, I'll leave you with some glamour shots of my new (to me) 1965 Bally Sheba:

Wow! You've managed to get four EM pins (none of which I've ever ever seen or played before) with beautiful play-fields on them (both design and condition) in the last two years! Way to go!

#291 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

I'll leave you with some glamour shots of my new (to me) 1965 Bally Sheba

She's a beauty!

#292 6 years ago
Quoted from girloveswaffles:

Wow! You've managed to get four EM pins (none of which I've ever ever seen or played before) with beautiful play-fields on them (both design and condition) in the last two years! Way to go!

One of these days my beginners luck is sure to wear off. In the meantime...don't jinx it.
superstitious.gifsuperstitious.gif

#293 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

One of these days my beginners luck is sure to wear off. In the meantime...don't jinx it.

I think you're more likely to run out of room with your ever increasing über cool collection of EM's.

#294 6 years ago
Quoted from RyanClaytor:

However, Patla's closest estimation is that it was someone at Ad Posters...but who knows which of their stable of artists may have worked on it...or if Ad Posters even has any records remaining? I sure would love to know.

I should add that I can pick several games as likely being neither Molentin nor Mystery Artist #1. We need more photos on IPDB for some of these games, but consider the following:
Cue-Tease
Magic Circle
Six Sticks
Loop the Loop
Six Shooter
Safari
I don't think all the above were done by one person, either. I have little to suggest Art Stenholm or Christian Marche, though the latter has some surprising credits.
I guess Ryan would add Band Wagon to the above list.
Let the rampant speculation continue!
.................David Marston

#295 6 years ago

Still on vay-cay over here, but managed to update my mystery artist musings with some photos:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-art-grail-pick-up-or-a-family-pinball-vay-cay-64-bally-hay-ride/page/6#post-3780896

Less IPDB-ing for you now.

#296 6 years ago

Ryan: Thanks to your well-chosen details, I'm switching Band Wagon from Mystery Artist to Molentin.
.................David Marston

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