(Topic ID: 234899)

My 1st GTB system1 - HELLLLPPPPP! :)


By DropTarget

4 months ago



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  • 56 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by DropTarget
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There are 56 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 months ago

Hi,

I just picked up a Count Down. It's my first experience with a System 1 game.

I've come across some issues and am hoping to get advice/input from the group.

1) When I first got the game, the displays worked. I "tinkered" with some connectors on the CPU and now they no longer light.
2) I've been checking voltages, The Bridge rectifiers are good, the power supply is putting out +5VDC and -12VDC on J2. I'm getting 4VDC and 8VDC on J3 7,8.
But am not getting either 42VDC or 60VDC on J3 1 or 3.
3) I'm guessing that the attached picture is not a good sign for the CPU (corrosion?)

so.....HELLLLPPPPP!!!!!

thx
IMG_2626 (resized).JPG

#2 4 months ago

Order some parts and start repinning connectors.

Remove that battery and neutralize the acid.

The 42V and 60V have their own special ground, are you measuring from that?

pasted_image (resized).png

The displays aren't working. Is the game still booting? On my Count Down, sometimes it wouldn't boot (or won't boot properly) until you reseated the connectors on the right.

Consider just buying a replacement MPU or LISY1 if you continue to have trouble. The original system 1 MPUs aren't really worth bothering with that much in my opinion.

#3 4 months ago

Thanks,

As per Clay's youtube video, I'm taking ground from the 200mf cap that's just below the male connector. I'll double check, maybe the 1/4a fuse is blown, but it checked good before.

I'm hoping that I didn't blow the little transformer when I was jiggling connectors with the power on. I didn't see, hear or smell anything.

I'm considering a new CPU. perhaps the all in 1 board.

I'm going to be locked in a hotel room for a few days, maybe I can bring the harnesses with me and start repinning.

#4 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

I'm going to be locked in a hotel room for a few days, maybe I can bring the harnesses with me and start repinning.

Is this because your wife is angry you brought home another machine? A not working machine! Just giving you a hard time.

Enjoy the challenge of the new machine!

#5 4 months ago

no comment!

but on a serious note....do you know what size pins to use? .100 or .156?

#6 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

I'm guessing that the attached picture is not a good sign for the CPU (corrosion?)

That Data Sentry is the original battery; I can see lots of corrosion damage just from the picture, not good.

I'd say check out the Janin all in on board: https://www.flippp.fr/boards.php?lg=en; this will eliminate the lower connector to the driver board that must have damage from the corrosion.

#7 4 months ago

Thanks, That's where I was leaning

#8 4 months ago

I'm a Bally guy. The .100s are the smaller ones used on the MPU and the .156 are on the power supply and larger size on solenoid driver board.

I'm sure someone else can provide more detail for this Sys 1 game.

My wife said no to pin #2 and then said no to pin #3. Guess who was playing them tonight with me! I don't think there will be a 4th. We ran out of space on the wall in the basement. Maybe time to remodel...to fit more pins.

#9 4 months ago

lol,

When I first moved into my house, I told my wife that I wanted a pinball machine. She said "OK, you can have one (1)" I'm up to 20 or so now.

She ignores it all.

#10 4 months ago

I recently rebuilt a Count-Down machine. Found lots of broken/cold solder joints on the original power supply. Fixed those and installed some caps that were dried up and out of spec. Also did the ground mods on that, the driver, and the MPU board.

You'll definitely need to clean the edge card contacts and re-pin some of the connectors on the cable. I'd relocate the battery off the board and clean up all the corrosion. The original board may be revived as long as the spider chips are ok.

#11 4 months ago

Thanks. I was just about to hit the purchase button for the all in one board, but damn, it's expensive.

How would you clean up the corrosion? Vinegar?

#12 4 months ago

I'm still trying to figure out why the displays stopped working

#13 4 months ago

I would suggest reviewing the Wiki on the System 1 games to start with:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1

And this site:

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/

and also this one:

https://www.flippers.com/servicing_the_gottlieb_system_1_.html

Check/verify all your voltages and check the connections. That can clear up a lot right there. Do not plug and unplug those displays when it is one. I've heard that can cause issues.

#14 4 months ago

I'm going to update my checklist tomorrow. There is an easier way to measure voltages on the power supply. In a nutshell. The 5, -12, 4, and 8 volt use the ground in the top connector. The 69 and 40 use the ground on the right connector

#15 4 months ago

Thanks,

Maybe It's a bad ground? Should I be taking ground from the ground pin on the right connector instead of the capacitor lead?

#16 4 months ago

I checked incoming voltage across pins 6 & 7 and got 79V

BTW, I'm an EM guy, not that much experience with SS, yet alone a System 1.

The thing that perplexing me about the displays is that they did work. I noticed that now, after the game had been off for a while, I turned it on and the #3 player display lit dimly for about a second before going out. Also, the heaters seem to work, I connected them to an external 6VDC source, and they glowed.

#17 4 months ago

OK,

After going back and forth on what to do, order an all in one board, which seems the easiest but most expensive way to go, or order a new power supply and CPU, which is less expensive, but might not repair all issues, or repair the power supply and cpu myself, which is time consuming and may not work in the long run, I've decided to 1st repin the connectors and then recheck voltages and go from there. I suspect that I'll need a CPU as A1-J6 just slides right off of the CPU, nothing left for it to grip and I haven't had great luck when trying to clean up CPUs in the past.

Stay tuned....This may take a while!

#18 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

Thanks,
Maybe It's a bad ground? Should I be taking ground from the ground pin on the right connector instead of the capacitor lead?

Not a bad ground per se but the split ground on the sys 1 power supply is confusing. The displays have worked. You've seen them. You have power. It's likely connectors at this point.

The top and bottom connector on the power supply, the power connector and all the bottom connectors on the mpu are suspect.

I have never had to redo a display connector on a system 1. Either at the mpu or the display.

#19 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

I'm considering a new CPU. perhaps the all in 1 board.

Before you do, you can always try giving the repair attempt a fair shot. You may get it going again, would be good practice, and if you butcher anything too much, you always have a backup plan.

However, I must say, that Pascal All-in-one board is worth every single penny. Everything is socketed, and the board has some really nice circuit protections and redundancies, and minimizes connector failures; plus it adds nice features like a modern attract mode and updated rules (that can be turned off if you're a purist).

Still, if you decided to go that route, you still need to repin all the connectors at a minimum.

#20 4 months ago

Thanks,

I that's going to be my plan of action. right now, 'm trying to desolder the old battery. What a PITA!

#21 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

Thanks,
I that's going to be my plan of action. right now, 'm trying to desolder the old battery. What a PITA!

If you can reach the legs top side just cut if off

#22 4 months ago

I simplified the instructions for testing the power supply in the checklist

#23 4 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

If you can reach the legs top side just cut if off

Couldn't get to the legs. I had to cut the top of the plastic housing off and remove the batteries. Then I was able to grab the legs with some pliers and desolder them.

#24 4 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

I simplified the instructions for testing the power supply in the checklist

Thank you. Is it the same link?

#26 4 months ago

Great!

I'm going away for a few days and won't be able to get back to the game for a little while. Boy I hate being away when I want to keep working on the machine.

Oh well, work calls.

to recap (no pun intended), here's where I'm at.

1) Game used to light displays, although no 5 second delay. Player 2 display was dim.
I jiggled some connectors on the CPU while power was on, I didn't play with the display connectors though. Then lost power to the displays.
2) Started running Clay's procedures, using your Spreadsheet.
The fuses are good, Bridge Rectifiers show proper resistance.
3) The 5V and 12V outputs to the CPU from the power supply are there and within tolerance.
4) No High Voltage output to the displays even though the input across pins 6 & 7 to the power supply is 74V.
5) The 4 and 8 volt output to the displays are there and correct.
6) I removed the CPU, desoldered the battery.

Here are pics of the CPU. Do you see ay reason to scrap the repair and buy a replacement?
Any thoughts one why no high voltage to the displays?

My plans are to start re-pinning connectors when I get back home. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that that will restore the high voltage, but am not optimistic at this point.

Thank for all of the help so far.

-W
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#27 4 months ago

So the only things affected that is not a resistor or small cap (cheap) is Z8 SN7404N $3-5 and Z28 DM7405N $1-5

If this was my board I'd take a shot at it.

Here's the pinwiki on this damage: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1#Battery_Leakage_and_Corrosion

#28 4 months ago

Thanks, I was concerned about some of those chips.

#29 4 months ago

I think what you have if fixable, but I am concerned about a couple things.

You say the displays used to come on, but instantly with the power? This suggests to me that the Slam Tilt is open.

On the CPU, as long as the spider chips are still good, then the board is repairable. If that board were mine, I would use thick, acid-based toilet bowl cleaner on the corroded areas, then scrub those areas with a brass wire brush

1acidtoiletbowlcleaner (resized).jpg1wirebrush (resized).jpg

#30 4 months ago

Warning: never use acidic bowl cleaner in a stainless steel sink

#31 4 months ago

Next thing I would do is repin the connector housings that's under that battery-damage zone.

Watch videos on using this tool. They are easy to break
1molexextractor (resized).jpg

#32 4 months ago
Quoted from songofsixpence:

Next thing I would do is repin the connector housings that's under that battery-damage zone.
Watch videos on using this tool. They are easy to break
[quoted image]

Docent has the Economy pin remover @$2.50 https://www.docentelectronics.com/httpdocs/AmusementGames/Pinball/Gottlieb/System%20One.htm

#33 4 months ago

Those card edge connector housing use Molex 08-50-0106

1molex08-50-0106 (resized).jpg

7 cents each, when you buy 100 through Mouser.

#34 4 months ago

for the card edge fingers, it is recommended to clean these with a pencil eraser. You should not use anything abrasive, except as a last resort.

My new favorite thing to clean card-edge connectors is a Brightboy. They were designed to clean model railroad tracks, and do a phenomenal job with edge connectors. They also work well on IC-chip legs.

1brightboy (resized).jpg

#35 4 months ago

GPE can supply all you need without having to order from two suppliers, Ed is one the best guys in the business and will take care of you. Great Plains Electronics

#36 4 months ago

If you would like further advice, I'd be happy to drop by one day for a visit.

#37 4 months ago
Is that made by Micro engineering co.? Curious to try one as I too use a big pink eraser. Is the site under same name?

#39 4 months ago

Thx songofsixpence I'm going to order one and give it a go!

#40 4 months ago
Quoted from songofsixpence:

You say the displays used to come on, but instantly with the power? This suggests to me that the Slam Tilt is open.

Yes, both the door slam switch and the tilt switches are/were open.

Quoted from songofsixpence:

Warning: never use acidic bowl cleaner in a stainless steel sink

Now you tell me!

Quoted from songofsixpence:

Next thing I would do is repin the connector housings that's under that battery-damage zone.

Thanks, There's an old timey electronics store not too far from where I live. I'm sure they have the tool. I know they have .156 connectors. I already have a bunch from a previous project.

Quoted from RWH:

GPE can supply all you need without having to order from two suppliers, Ed is one the best guys in the business and will take care of you. Great Plains Electronics

Yup great guy. I may pick up new edge connectors from him.

Quoted from songofsixpence:

My new favorite thing to clean card-edge connectors is a Brightboy. They were designed to clean model railroad tracks, and do a phenomenal job with edge connectors. They also work well on IC-chip legs.

Cool. I've used pencil erasers on Seeburg Jukebox formats. I'm wondering if that "we buy Lionel Trains" place on rt.46 in Parsippany would have them.

Quoted from songofsixpence:

If you would like further advice, I'd be happy to drop by one day for a visit.

That would be great, I'm away from home right now. I'll be back in a few days. You're always welcome to come over, worse comes to worse, if we don't get this game going, we can play some pinball, hell we can do that either way.

#41 4 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

So the only things affected that is not a resistor or small cap (cheap) is Z8 SN7404N $3-5 and Z28 DM7405N $1-5

Do you think this would substitute for a DM7405N as they are out of production. Mouser and Newark Electronics recommend them instead. I can always get a DM7405N on eBay if needed, but I for 1.91 I ordered the recommended replacement from Mouser.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/595-SN7405N

#42 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

Do you think this would substitute for a DM7405N as they are out of production. Mouser and Newark Electronics recommend them instead. I can always get a DM7405N on eBay if needed, but I for 1.91 I ordered the recommended replacement from Mouser.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/595-SN7405N

you want this:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/SN74LS04N?qs=sGAEpiMZZMutVWjHE%2fYQw%252bapLJeN9MxpLZ2LWnfirGs%3d

I have some you can have. Plus Wayne Electronics likely carries them. That's the old timey electronics store you're referring to, right?

Don't forget the sockets:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/1-2199298-3?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiJXpyNSCmeIGM6DzzoVc4nhSZHzOok1pM2dZZPNM9TKQ%3d%3d

#43 4 months ago

oops, Mouser recommended the other chip, so I ordered one. If you have an extra, I'd gladly use that.

Quoted from songofsixpence:

I have some you can have. Plus Wayne Electronics likely carries them. That's the old timey electronics store you're referring to, right?

Yup, Wayne Electronics. I called them today re: the pins, but he only had 10 pieces.

Quoted from songofsixpence:

Don't forget the sockets:

Guess what I forgot!. I saw the chips were soldered to the board, so didn't think of sockets. Maybe Wayne Electronics has them.

#44 4 months ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Docent has the Economy pin remover @$2.50

I can't believe the Molex brand tool is $22.00

I found that a probe from my multimeter works perfectly.

#45 4 months ago
Quoted from songofsixpence:

I would use thick, acid-based toilet bowl cleaner on the corroded areas, then scrub those areas with a brass wire brush

here's a thread...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stripping-battery-corrosion-with-a-strong-acid

#46 4 months ago

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#47 4 months ago

Great news. What did you do to get it to work?

#48 4 months ago

Well, It's not exactly working, But the displays power up.

I cleaned and neutralized the CPU. I re-pinned A2J1.

I was still not getting high voltage, and now the +5V output was intermittent. Then I noticed that pin 7 on the input header was pushed in about an 1/8th of an inch. I pulled it out, and voilÀ.

I had given up and ordered a new Power supply, then figured this out about 5 10 minutes later. I went to cancel the new power supply, but tit had already shipped. I'm trying to decide to put in the replacement or keep the game original. I guess I'll keep it original if the CPU is good. If I have to replace it, I may as well replay both.

I won't get around to re-pinning the other connectors until sometime next week.

Stay tuned, and thanks for the support/help.

-W

#49 4 months ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

I was still not getting high voltage, and now the +5V output was intermittent. Then I noticed that pin 7 on the input header was pushed in about an 1/8th of an inch. I pulled it out, and voilÀ./help.
-W

The header pins on the bottom of the power supply? Good indicator of cracked solder joints

#50 4 months ago

Yeah you'd better reflow those pins, 7 shouldn't have pushed in or out.

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