Even set up tough and brutal, all you've done is made a repetitive, relatively shallow game brutal, which is even less reason to play it. MORE reasons to play it are needed, not less. The code base is so thin on Munsters it's almost not there at all, and there are annoying "featured" pauses in the gameplay like Dragula countdown which gets VERY old VERY fast. This game's earnings died fast on route once the VERY CASUAL players at the location it was at figured out what it had to offer. Our quickest in and gone pin ever at less than 6 weeks.

We'll see how it looks a year from now, but if someone wants a new pin, I would NOT recommend Munsters. Get a Deadpool Premium - THAT machine is now a choice purchase after languishing with crappy, incomplete code for like 6 months post-launch. Stern has established a pattern of crappy code at launch, maybe fun a year or more later, so this Munsters terrible code should be no surprise. It's literally almost equal to the sad state Batman '66 launched in and was stuck with for 18 months.

Well that means you're only wrong sometimes.

He also did Game of Thrones, which is one of my favorite rulesets, and Star Wars, which started out crap and is now pretty great. So he CAN do good work. It's not like he's a Lonnie or anything.

Even I can agree with this. But the price of admission for mediocre is still very steep. That's the core problem. Dwight needs to rethink his approach to the code. It has X-Men/TWD/Batman'66 launch code-itis.

They have, it's called Midnight Madness and it's one of the best MM modes ever done, I heartily recommend every owner change the clock if they're not late people so they can see it. On the route, I reversed the clock so noon players could see it.

MM has excellent theme integration, which proves Dwight CAN do it if he wants to.

It's the most finished-feeling part of the game with fun and theme integration, which is weird since it's essentially a bonus feature, and most people won't even know it's there. First time he got it, my son was like "THIS is what the game should be like."

jjPotC DESTROYS Stern's PotC. Destroys. And the music is without peer. The only reason it didn't win best music is not enough people even had access to a machine to hear it. EVERY theme is good in it, and many, many are AMAZING. You don't need movie voices to make a good pirates game, and jjPotC proved it. You need to spend a lot more time with it.

Layout is much closer to AC/DC. Much.

The super jackpot counter on the screen is definitely WAY too small. WAY.

And then there's the people that bought it, recognized the familiar stench of the Batman'66 launch state and said "aw, hell no!" and dumped the machine within weeks, deciding to jump in again in a couple years IF it is improved. Instead of upgrading Munsters Pro to a Premium for the route, we dumped the Pro, cancelled the Premium order and brought in Deadpool Premium instead. It was a great change.

I think that's changing, at least in the US. It mostly has to do with how terrible Deadpool was at launch - and it was BAD. In the last 3 months or so of great software updates, it's turned a corner and at least here seems to have become a sought-after pin. Lots of people buying Premiums and LEs recently. We added a Premium to the route I help with and it's doing great.

People that dumped Munsters and spent months (or YEARS) enjoying a pin with good code while Munsters does whatever it does will regret nothing. Why waste time with a crap pin, especially in a limited home collection? Enjoy a pin with mature code (Deadpool has recently graduated to awesome) and circle back to Munsters IF it ever gets code worth playing.

Those same people you have over would enjoy Deadpool or another "easy to play, hard to master" pin with mature code that you can still enjoy when they're not there. There is no sense in having an expensive crippled pin just for the special case of non pinheads you have over being able to play it. There are PLENTY of great pins that non-pinheads and low-skill players can have a great time with.

This isn't just picking on Munsters. I dogged Deadpool for like 6 months because it was TERRIBLE, but with energetic and imaginitive code updates it's become a great pin that I now highly recommend. Maybe one day Munsters will be that way, too. But given Dwight's public comments that the game is basically finished, I think it's that in more ways than one and would never recommend it, much as I *love* the theme.

You're talking about two different things. AfM is relatively shallow compared to modern games, but the theme is WELL INTEGRATED and the code has good progression which makes it FUN. Munsters is very shallow with a very poorly integrated theme, so it makes it much more boring than Attack from Mars. After only about 2 weeks the year-old AfMr already was out-earning the brand new Munsters we had on the route I help with. That's really bad for a new pin, usually the honeymoon lasts longer. Ghostbusters has problems with buggy code and some bad code progression choices, but I wouldn't call it crippled because it again has great theme integration, and the depth of code that's already there is substantially more than Munsters.

Munsters has the double whammy of poor theme integration AND very shallow, repetitive code, which makes it exceptionally boring to play. THAT is crippled.

But hey, it can pull a Deadpool or Batman'66 and get a major code fix or fixes that makes it worth owning eventually, but we're definitely not going to have one on the route while Dwight figures out if the code really is mostly done like he's said.

Not entirely true unless you delete old PMs from them. As long as they have a PM in your inbox, they can still PM you while ignored. Also, they can still harrass you with downvotes that are visible to you despite being ignored. I know this because one especially huge loser shill account has done this.

Oh, I've totally moved on from this particular ego-driven idiot (which is a badly-disguised shill account for a much better-known senior pinsider), but it was interesting that they found cracks in the ignore system. Once I deleted the last PM from him, he had no way to PM me, and I do just think "wow, no life" when I see his serial downvotes (easy to spot as he's 99.9% of the time the only downvote on a post). Robin's aware of the cracks now.

Gary said on video that he could sell a box of lights with (I think it was Star Wars? Don't remember.) the game name on it. So, uh, that's the mentality.

Isn't he on Elvira 3?

Lighting both PF multipliers using Kitty with Mystery/Lilly/Herman activation can be done pretty easily (too easily, IMO) on Munsters. Stack that with the stacked super jackpots for a big super jackpot over and over. Boring.

Ugh. I just need to take that out completely since it gives people the wrong idea. I don't update the collection because it changes too much, and I limit myself to two pins at home at a time max as a recovering pin-a-holic. But I've hooked up with an operator a couple years ago to recommend what pins to bring in and to maintain those pins on his route, so I see and extensive play almost every new pin out, including Munsters. It's just a bad pin. Lasted like 3 weeks on the route because the regulars hated it after a week, too. Needs a complete code re-think. As has been noted, Iron Man has very basic code, but is a great pin - a blazing fast ballbuster. Simple code can be awesome IF it's well integrated into the theme and well executed. Munsters is neither.

7, 8 maybe.

Speed isn't the only component to a great pin. It's speed, code, and theme integration. Munsters has one of those. There's almost no theme integration, and the code is very flat and single-minded. It's a dull machine in desperate need of a complete code overhaul. John Borg did his job reasonably well (I don't think the Herman bash toy makes any sense, but other than that, decent). The problem is mainly with Dwight's anemic code and scoring structure.

Iron Man hits all the marks with speed, code, and theme integration. The code could use a little more depth, but there's plenty there to make an enjoyable pin. I don't SEE most of the people on a day to day basis that play these pins on the route I help with, but it was pretty clear that they did not like Munsters very quickly. The "new pin honeymoon" cash bump that usually lasts a month or more lasted a week or two with Munsters, then earnings fell off a cliff. Granted at this location they had AfMr and Iron Maiden Premium to choose from as well, but to have a new pin drop off so fast says a lot about the pin. We got rid of it. Literally the fastest pin in and out since I've been helping with that route.

Not "everywhere" - as I said, Munsters was a huge fail in Northern California (we had the first and only Munsters on location north of Sacramento). Earnings honeymoon was the shortest of any machine we've put out, then it dropped off a cliff. Dialed In lasted almost three times longer before its earnings fell! It's a bad pin due to terrible code.

Good news is, Deadpool that SUCKED at launch and for like the next 6 months is now doing great at the location it's at here. Tanio's code turned the corner in the .90s and never looked back. Players love it.

Munsters can be fixed, but the first step to recovery is admitting there's a problem. Mike? Paging Mike? It's time for some of that programmer whispering you're known for...

Well here, at the location it was at, earnings rank was:

1> AfMrLE
2> Iron Maiden Prem
3> Munsters Pro

But once Munsters almost immediately fell off a cliff, there was a big gap between 2-3. After the lineup change, it's now:

1> jjPotCLE
2> AfMrLE
3> Iron Maiden Prem

But 2/3 are very close and swap constantly, whereas 1 is still in its honeymoon earnings phase. Munsters almost didn't perform like a new pin at all. It was bad.

Server's been laggy, hanging, and throwing occasional cloudflare errors the last few days for me. Is that what you're talking about? Double posting because it lagged or seemed to hang up?

So what you're saying is Bible Adventures is doomed? That beats these "old man themes" by centuries.

None of the n00bs know what Attack from Mars is on the location I help with when they first come in. They are almost all soon addicted. It's code. Ask Facebook about making the most mundane thing addictive with code.

People understand monsters, too (I mean Frankenstein and Dracula monsters are front and center). Even "good" or "goofy" monsters. In Munsters that goodwill is being squandered because they aren't being presented in a funny, fun, and addictive way. Code. Well, and theme integration. Munsters has a TON of great slapstick that's not being used.

Understatement of the year.

Do yourself a favor and play Midnight Madness on this pin. It is the single best Midnight Madness mode I've played. Fantastic theme integration, and just spot-on. I set the machine we had on route (before it was sold off in under a month) to opposite time so people playing at noon could get it. DEFINITELY something you want to play.

That said, you made the right choice by passing on Munsters. Circle back in a year and see if a lot has changed to make it worth a buy.

Gary (aka "Sam" in this story) agrees that doing math to play pinball isn't fun:

The comparison is obvious because, having had both from launch, BM'66 and Munsters have started with almost exactly the same level of extremely shallow, almost nothing-to-do code. There's almost literally a direct correlation of limited things to do.

However, Batman started getting better 18 months later. I don't think Munsters will improve that much because historically Dwight leaves his machines and moves on. GoT and Ghostbusters are still bug-fests years after release, and Munsters is much less involved than either of those at launch. If he goes back and does a Lyman-like overhaul it will be the first time in history. Seems very unlikely.

Lily isn't "do nothing" it's is actually a VERY easy way to do the first step to qualify the initial kitty multiplier target. Basically they should have just called Munsters "Kitty" because that's key to getting the multipliers maxed and getting score. Keep getting kitty lit, keep hitting kitty keep skipping super jackpots until you have them all, then collect.

Problem is, none of it is fun after a while. Zero. It's just a boring grind with super-poor theme integration. We had the same experience as your operator friend on the route I help with. It was gone in less than a month. Fastest in and out for a machine since I've been helping him. N00bs hated it, experienced players were bored. It earned really bad. It's not the theme, it's the terrible software. Plenty of people sampled it when we had it out, but few came back to it.

Top 10 Pinside on which list? Disappointments?

Lyman

Lonnie, Tanio

Lonnie, Waison

Keith

Lyman

Lyman

See any Dwight machines on your list (though he did help on Keith's WPT)? No? Well, that's because Dwight has a bad reputation of leaving his code unpolished and buggy (see: Ghostbusters, Game of Thrones). There would be more hope for Munsters if A> Dwight didn't have a rep and B> Dwight hadn't said on the record he considers Munsters mostly done instead of in need of a complete serious overhaul.

Using Lyman machines as 50% of your stated examples and Dwight machines as 0% of your examples doesn't really help your Munsters thesis.

So, yeah, Munsters code is poor and literally about as wide and deep as the initial terrible Batman '66 software. And it's a big (REALLY BIG) gamble betting it will get the overhaul it needs. If you like it as-is, great. But don't bet on or suggest Lyman level improvement on a Dwight game - it's a losing gamble.

Iron Man is another Borg title that is not especially deep, but it is FUN. Munsters is one-note and just boring in a very short period of time, even for n00bs (as evidenced by how fast the route earnings here and other places fell off a cliff). The key problem is not breadth or depth (though more of both would be welcome) but the lack of FUN.

Still makes bank on route, too. Unlike, say, Munsters.

I spent an EXTENSIVE amount of time on a Pro and some time on a Premium. It's a boring, one-note game with terrible theme integration. The Kitty shot is all it's about right now, and that's not fun. I hope it gets better, but with Dwight's public comments, it's not looking good.

And forget my opinion, it's not earning on route. That's the death knell. Every real operator I've talked to says it's meh to bad earnings (it fell off an earnings cliff faster than any other pin on the route I help with). Only Stern says it's doing great. I believe the operators.

You know, you can drain the thread so you never see it again if it upsets you so much.

Unless the code author is on record as saying what he's already released is almost done, and he also has a record of buggy abandonware. That's the Munsters situation. It's almost graphable now. This is not a Batman'66/Lyman situation, though the starting point is almost equally bad.

Absolutely. I like Dwight's "chess pinball" from Game of Thrones and to a lesser extent, Star Wars. I just never imagined he'd stop at checkers and call it a day like he has with Munsters (as he stated). So yeah, a much different BFD than expected.

Ghostbusters has been riddled with bugs and incomplete since release over three years ago. Almost no updates at the beginning, either.

Game of Thrones (while I like the code) has a fair amount of annoying bugs that should be easy to fix. No fixes forthcoming.

Star Wars fared a little better (maybe because of the Disney license?) and got enough updates to take it from blah to pretty good.

Munsters is literally almost point for point at the same place Batman '66 was when it launched very poorly. And Dwight is on record saying it's pretty much done, so no Lyman rehab of the whole thing is coming to save it.

So based on what Dwight has said on the record about Munsters code, it will not follow the dribbly trajectory of incremental improvements over time that a Lyman game would. I hope Stern changes this, but we didn't stick around to find out.

This is a thread about "worst code ever" - what about that title led you to believe there would be constructive comments about the code? This isn't a club thread where everyone talks about how great it is not to have all that code to learn. It's a thread about how bare-bones awful Munsters code is - easily the worst since launch time Batman '66. It DOES seem like conversation about that reality is upsetting you.

Psst. You can also ignore me and anyone else that upsets you forever with just a click. There are ways to fix your angina on this subject. You have the tools, why not use them? I do. My ignore list is not long, but a few choice cuts made the pinside experience much better. I highly recommend it.

Dunno about BK3 (we passed for location), but Munsters DID NOT EARN. Honeymoon period that usually lasts a month or more with a new machine lasted about a week with Munsters before it fell off a cliff. And this is not a location with pro players. It's mostly recreational n00bs. They just didn't like it. jjPotC earned more in a WEEK than Munsters earned in a MONTH on the route. Granted, jjPotC is at $1.50/Play $5/4 Play with 4 balls and Munsters was $1/play with 3 balls, but that price difference doesn't explain the huge earning disparity.

I haven't heard anyone but Stern say Munsters is earning great. All the OPs I talk to say Meh to bad earnings IF they still have it. So no, the "let's do less code" Stern model isn't automatically an earnings hit on routes.

Also, the recent report from the Stern tour where Deadpool and BK:Sor were all over the place on the floor and Munsters was absent reinforces the reality that Deadpool is suddenly very hot and Munsters remains very cold. If the demand was anywhere near the levels Stern implies, there would be a lot more Munsters being made.

In addition to the personal experience on the route I help with (Munsters was the fastest in-to-out of any new pin ever), your story or variations of it are what I'm mostly hearing. Munsters is bombing on routes. It's not hard to imagine why. Stern CAN fix this, but will they?

So, that's why Bible Adventures hit the skids? Lack of faith in the ancient theme? Ironic.

Seriously though. Wizard of Oz. I could never imagine playing one, let alone owning one. The code is what makes it good, and it does great on route. Real staying power. Code is more important than theme for lasting power.

Much better code would make Munsters do better. But as it is, it makes no sense (why is the player bashing Herman?), the theme integration is terrible (except for Midnight Madness - the best integration of this in any pin), and it's just boring to play after a while. I totally believe that it can be saved, but I don't think Dwight will do it. I'd love to be surprised, though. Make this another Deadpool terrible to awesome transformation with code alone and I'll happily promote it.

Don't waste your time. Pinside is a curiousity for Stern management, nothing more. You'll get PR BS and probably some outright lies. Play your pinball machines, it's more productive.

Seems like the 1 month in and out for Munsters is a common location refrain...

Just my personal experience helping on a route. The pins with the best code are the ones that last the longest - in general. Ghostbusters would be an exception (although there's plenty of code, there's a LOT of bugs), and there are are few others. Theme seems to carry it the first few months, but code keeps it going, on the locations here, at least.

So still no one saying it's earning great, but one better than meh and two more pulled after a month. That's not a great record. There's a reason Munsters came and went on the line, it seems.

I really hope Stern revamps the code to put an actual game in the cabinet, but if they don't, it's dead.

If it was selling so well, it would still be on the line. They made the initial machines, pushed them out, and that was that. Recent tour was all deadpool (heating up to white hot sales now that the code is good) and BK:SOR. When used Munsters pros were under 5k a month in, that's not a good sign. And with Operators taking it off routes in a month or less due to bad earnings (us and others) or watching Munsters perform at the bottom of earnings, it's not a hot title. It's a dud.

Casuals on location here hated it, too. It's not just hardcore.

But if you drain the thread you disagree with, solves the problem completely. You don't need the agitation.

And crying when people come into the Munsters club thread "being rude" by pointing out the machines clear shortcomings, but then doing the EXACT SAME THING by coming into the clear anti-club thread and spouting "Munsters is great" nonsense nonstop is hypocritical.

Thank you for making my point just one post later.

Well, it's better than one person doing enough delusional posting for the other "five" with a realistic take.

Well, that doesn't actually matter to anyone except you. The point is you're being hypocritical and annoying by breaking your own "rules."

Fortunately, I'm ON TOPIC in this thread. You are NOT. That's the point. Would you like to post something negative about Munsters? There's lots to choose from...

Don't change my words to fit your agenda. That's not what I said. I said I was ON TOPIC, as in this thread is ABOUT MUNSTERS HAVING THE WORST CODE EVER. The fact that's what this thread is FOR is not open for debate, it's not an opinion. It's a fact. You are in a thread about how awful munsters code is constantly deriding people for posting that it does indeed suck.

You whine when this happens in the Munsters club thread by people that don't like it and post there. If you notice, I haven't posted there negatively since I realized I was accidentally posting in it via notifications. Probably at least 6 weeks ago. Why can't you extend the same courtesy to people in this thread that don't share your OPINION by just dialing back (or off) your "Munsters is the bestest ever" posts here or being churlish to people that are ON TOPIC in this thread?

Okay, that's your OPINION, but why are you HERE dogging the people that don't share your OPINION when they've stayed out of your kumbaya Munsters club thread out of respect? The point is, you've expressed your opinion over and over and over in a thread here that's NOT ABOUT your opinion. You're just being disrespectful now.

I don't ignore button lightly. But point taken.

Are you SUUUUUURE?

saint-vic (resized).jpg

I could not disagree with this more. Did you actually PLAY jjPotC where you could HEAR it (or play it at all? You replied like you've only watched it)? The soundtrack, callouts, and light show are AMAZING. Easily the best soundtrack so far this century. Nothing else comes close. There's a lot to do and it can be overwhelming for a while, but it's a sight and sound smorgasbord and so much fun with two players because of the novel plunder mechanic.

Gibbs does a TON of great callouts, and you also have the pirate "Arrrrrs" and the random parrot callouts. I don't feel like I'm missing something when playing it. If someone didn't know this was based on a movie series they would think it was an extremely good pirate pinball game. The best yet. Destroys Black Rose and Stern PotC

I don't know many people who would be of this opinion after playing both extensively. Stern's is SO BORING. The ship's a great toy, but that's about it.

OMG, you're right I'd take jjPotC ANY DAY over Hobbit. THAT is JJP's biggest mess, er...miss. No matter how they dressed it up, it just was a bad design that wasn't fun and those drop targets proved there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

The Wayne years. Bleaugh...

It can absolutely be fixed, but Dwight on record saying he considers it almost done is the main concern. It's nowhere close to acceptable in its current state. Hopefully Stern gives it to one of the newer programmers to fix up while Dwight moves on (or back to Ghostbusters and GoT to finish those).

What revamp of the operator menu? They basically are using the same one as the DMD games. It's nowhere near making use of the extra screen real-estate of the LCD.

GoT only took 3.5 years to get a reasonable update and its code was in WAY BETTER shape than Munsters. One thing's for sure, Stern needs to get Dwight on a major code overhaul for Munsters or they aren't making any more and it's DoA. Munsters Pro are already frequently down in the mid-low 4's on the secondary market - owners taking a $1000 and up bath to dump it. Premium prices are doing better but only because they're not selling at the asking prices.

Munsters is definitely a wait and see machine. The license and design has lots of potential, but the anemic, "The Kitty Show" boring code is really holding it back. Dwight really shot Stern in the foot by saying publicly he considers it mostly done. It's nowhere near done, and the market knows it. Pricing doesn't lie.

You're better off selling and spending 2 years with a game you will enjoy, then circling back and later seeing if Munsters ever got the overhaul it needed. There are PLENTY of great pinball options right now that you will enjoy more while Munsters is worked out over time.

Like the original Batman'66 code that current Munsters is VERY close to bare-bones code features-wise, Munsters needs a COMPLETE rethink overhaul of the code. That will not happen overnight, if at all. It took 18 months for Batman'66 to START to get better, and it had Lyman on code. Dwight saying he considers it done doesn't help matters.

Well, you have to bear in mind that Game of Thrones took like 2 years since the last update and 3.5 years since release to get fixed, and it had some pretty significant bugs. Great job with the code update, but 2 years for even bugs fixes is pretty ridiculous. Munsters needs a lot more than GoT, that's for sure. It'll probably be a loooooong wait, if ever.

Kicking your butt is not equivalent to fun. It CAN be fun, but it doesn't MAKE fun. Munsters is not fun in any current configuration and is almost 1 to 1 matching to the box of lights code Batman '66 had for over a year that still was more fun and less repetitive than Munsters.

Just an FYI, changing someone else's quotes is a pinside no-no, even if it's fun/funny. I learned this the hard way. I'd change it or a mod is eventually coming.

Maybe sales aren't there and Stern won't give him time to re-do the game code? I know it was literally the fastest pin in to out on the route I help with. Lasted about a month, which was shocking. Terrible earnings, and I've heard similar from other OPs.

Well, if there wasn't real-world evidence from routes where Munsters did very poorly with casuals and was pulled pretty quickly, that statement might be debatable. It lasted less than a month at the location I help with. It was the BOTTOM EARNER for that month. That's unheard of for a brand new pin. Other locations have similar stories and no longer have it out. It's bad. Real bad.

Hopefully a complete overhaul. "The Kitty Show" is not fun.

Casuals where we are at least will give every new pin put out a try. The theme doesn't matter that much for the regulars, but if it's not fun, they will not keep putting money in. They stopped putting money in Munsters in a record short time. It was a shockingly short route honeymoon. jjPotC currently has the record for longest route honeymoon at almost 10 months and counting (still earning 2x the next nearest pin), while Munsters has the shortest (I didn't clock it to days, but it was less than 1 week before the mediocre earnings fell off a cliff).

If it's NIB at launch, we generally route Stern Pros to get them out immediately, then upgrade it to the Prem/LE when they start shipping a month or more later. Same plan here, except that the Munsters Pro did SO BAD it went and the upgrade to Prem was cancelled. This isn't a Pro/Prem issue, it's a bad code issue. We suffered through the Batman'66 SLE launch, and Munsters is almost exactly point for point as sparse as that initial Batman'66 code.

It's literally the ONLY GAME we have ever put out where earnings fell off starting the FIRST WEEK and never recovered. It's not like we intended to get rid of it. We had planned to put out a Prem once they were shipping, but the Pro did SO BAD SO FAST that those plans were cancelled. The only time it's ever happened on this route.

Glad your Munsters LE is doing well, but it's an exception, not the rule for Munsters from every other OP I've talked to, and my firsthand route experience with it.

It's the newest pin in that lineup, but it makes the least money? Maybe not as bad as what we experienced on the route there, but essentially the same story.

Look, maybe it's PTSD from Batman'66SLE, but Munsters feels like deja vu all over again. And since I RECOMMENDED bringing the pin in to the OP with the route and we planned on selling the Pro to get a Prem/LE when they shipped, I came in with an extremely positive bias for it. No hate here for the game. However, reality smacked that down, and it comes down to terrible, bare bones code on the Pro and Prem/LE. IF Dwight reconsiders the code being basically finished and they overhauls it like Lyman did to Batman'66, then there's plenty in the mechanical design to work with and it could be very fun. But that's some unknowable future.

You're changing what I said. I did not say "every other OP." I literally said every other OP I TALKED TO. Don't change the quote and then chastise the misquote.

I don't know pi past 9 digits. I also don't know what I don't know, so that covers quite a lot.

Six or so, but they are from all over the US, so it's not a CA-only story, and all of them have the underperforming or bad or gone already version of The Munsters story. ALL of them. I'm not saying there can't be locations it works, but I haven't heard of a single location where it rose above middling on location earnings compared to other pins. That's not a success story. And even without the route earnings component, it's clear that the code is bare-bones, in the same category as Batman'66 at release, almost point for point, mode for mode. That's sad.