There is absolutely ZERO reason to say “I’d rather have shallow code versus deep code”

NONE. Deep doesn’t necessarily mean complex rules.

How about a game that incorporates all the assets and shots creatively.

Lyman is the best and it’s not close.

If you have deep code it potentially satisfies everyone

Even the basic stiff who will never see it all can have mini wizards and objectives to go for

And the good players have something to play for a LONG time

Btw, I don’t care how many they made TAF sucks!

agree with your previous post, but loved me some TAF back in 90's

It might not be deep, but has amazing theme integration. Thing hand is such a cool toy. Still probably the best multiball start up ever created. Raul Julia frickin' KILLS it. The way he screams TRIPLE JACKPOT! is amazeballs to this day. Invented "Dirty Pool".

I understand I view through a lens of nostalgia... but one can't just throw out how much of a game changer it was back in 1991 either.

// oh hey, look at my avatar

Depth = good is a myth. Addams is exactly deep enough for a pinball machine. I love good deep games like LOTR and TSPP, but in 10 years, I've never seen the final wizard modes. If you never see them, does it even matter that the game is that deep? I'd rather play Addams, and get to the wizard mode every so often, honestly.

I just wish there was more energy going into small, distributed LCD's on the PF (which has more potential for impacting the gameplay). For example, DI's virtual images in the Quantum Theatre. Star Wars LCD on the PF is another example...cool but used sparingly.

Just feels like a lot of the "energy" within Stern being applied to an area that has limited utility for single player games (common in the home).

A game with "meh" mechs and generic layout isn't helped that much by a wiz bang graphics show on the back box. Again, I'm all for great graphics, but it needs to be icing on the cake...not the cake

Re TAF: 25+ years later people are still quoting lines from the Addams Family game. It truly is one of the all time classic games in all arenas.

With respect to Munsters, I don't agree with the title of this thread-IMO there are worse games to play, but I am not going to fuel that fire by naming them.

I think The Munsters game is fun and enjoyable, just not for what it costs. Probably applies to a lot of games.

I think the issue (with all of the game manufacturers) is that buyers keep monitoring more each year the Cost to Gameplay ratio. Making a game more complicated with War and Peace length reading rulesets and adding new TV screens and tons of toys does not necessarily equal more fun.

Buyers today are basically expecting the game and code to be mind blowing, because of the price. Many people probably feel they are way beyond "Oh what the heck, I'll get one" money. Certainly everyone wants to feel they are getting what they paid for with their hard earned dollars.

I have seen people completely ignore $7500 LE games to play all night on $750 EM games

depending on how fast you drain two games is plenty. If it doesn't make you want to play more after 2 games, it's not going to get any better after 100.

While I disagree with the first part of your post (I think GotG gameplay is fantastic), I do agree with the LCD assessment. I don't understand the desire to have a pinball machine show clips from a movie I've seen a dozen times. I think JJP Pirates is better for not showing Johnny Depp every 5 seconds. It would be fine to use dialogue and lines from a movie(s), but using the LCD as a DVR seems wasteful. DP's LCD graphics are inspired (whether or not you like them is another discussion).

Give me something new to look at...not cut-scenes that everyone knows by heart. I'd bet that Wonka goes the clip route, and I think it'll be the worse off for it.

I cant wait to find out which side of the aisle I'll fall on. When it was first announced it was a must buy for me. Love the theme. Got to look at my first pics and thought, wow its gorgeous. Looked like tons of fun. As I waited for one to purchase I heard about and saw for myself the mono targets. Being the type that thinks the more shots the better this gave me pause. Then the avalanche of oh my God this code sucks and it's so shallow all about points and jackpots and that's it.(ouch) I like modes, I like deep, I like when you feel like your in the game. For that reason I've decided to wait and see for myself on this title. Looks like I'll find out which side I fall on at pinfest. I'm hoping I love it. Either way it's a great time to be a pinhead!

Your definitely in the minority there! Next thing you'll probably say Gottlieb System 3's are far superior to the 90's Bally/Williams era pins!

Had enough of this thread. Was pretty ridiculous from the start. Just think... in two hours people can start ripping apart the next game release.

Not to mention the best toy by far among both games, the sinking ship.

Nah, game and code bashing is pretty much aimed at Stern games only. All the other companies, even the shitty ones seem to get a free pass for whatever reason.

Uh ... okay.

Perhaps we can discuss this objectively in a few years when you've gained a little more perspective regarding JJP POTC.

I was talking with a Stern programmer a fews years back at Expo (2016 maybe? Starts to all blur honestly). Was around 2am, just hanging in the hall by the tournament games shooting the shit. He told me two things that stuck with me despite the late hour:

1) Everyone at Stern loves the 90s era of pins, and wants nothing more than to make games of that caliber

2) The programmers are given half the time that they had in the 90s to make the games

I'll leave his identity a mystery, but let's just say you could all guess it easily. It's not that these guys don't care or are bad at their job, it's just that games get pumped out, time is short, and we expect more and more from the code, while they're given less and less time to get it done.

All of the above, but sometimes less is more when it comes to code as far as the rule set being simple to understand.

Otherwise, Yes, more everything. Theres always System 11 pins that are great to play if you want something with less going on than modern pins, but still fast paced.

Btw. I think you're spot on with your opinion of TAF. Probably the most perfectly coded game ever, IMHO.

I agree with Lyman on this topic, can't remember the podcast he was on, but he said the thing he looks for in a game is are there multiple ways to approach it? His example, and a favorite of mine, was The Shadow. It's not a deep or complicated game, but you can walk up and play it multiple ways. Are you going for the modes? Trying to get the secret laughing mode started? Comboing ramps for Super Vengeance? Working on your loops?

Sometimes I'll play Shadow with the intent of getting to Final Battle, but I get distracted by Super Vengeance because it's just so fun and satisfying to hit those ramp combos with the diverter switches. It's like driving stick shift, you feel like your whole body is engaged in the experience.

Honestly I give two shits about rule depth, I just want to know is the game fun? If it's deep and fun, great! If it's deep and a grind, hard pass. If it's simple and fun (TNA) then that's a really good game to have around. If it's simple and boring who the hell cares about that game? Fun needs to be the watch word imo.

You're too close to it. I'm glad you enjoy it. I'm never going to play the game ever again, I have all the perspective I need. It's a licensed game that didn't get the assets for its license. Stern had the same problem. They solved it with a good Jack Sparrow sound-alike & other "generic" pirate voices, the Yo-ho song, and an awesome sinking ship. Their game had what it needed to be a successful POTC game & became one of Stern's top sellers. JJPOTC was released at the wrong time with the wrong approach. There's a reason they're canning it and moving onto Wonka.

Upon announcement of Munsters I got into a quasi pissing match in the ‘Dwight deep code’ thread. His games are basic rules.

THEN...Dwight goes on a podcast and stated Munsters rules are shallow. That’s why I don’t buy his games for a HUO environment. Deep is better, but well integrated? Magical. Dwight is neither of those. Fine for location I guess.

No expert but game rules and depth should be an option of the machine just like flipper strength. Zero reason a game can’t have more than one rule set to cater to different range of players. I mean yes it’s cost but.

Other option would be stock rules but also a “maker” mode. Let the community design the rules. The best would quickly float to the top.

I've heard much the same sentiment. There is a solution to the problem but it is going to take someone like Deeproot, JJP or Spooky to force the hand.
First company to have an SDK and CICD process in place and allow for some crowdsourcing and hobbyist to pitch in on code will be the winner. It's going to take an SDK / public api or likewise to really get some of my friends interested in Pin ownership.

Great idea. People might be ok with crap code and say BS like "well it so cohesive and kicks your ass so shallow doesn't matter like IM".

You buy a game today for the $$$ that you pay, DEEP F ING CODE ought to be mandatory on the checklist.

That satisfies EVERYBODY

And if the companies won't do it let the community do it

jjPotC DESTROYS Stern's PotC. Destroys. And the music is without peer. The only reason it didn't win best music is not enough people even had access to a machine to hear it. EVERY theme is good in it, and many, many are AMAZING. You don't need movie voices to make a good pirates game, and jjPotC proved it. You need to spend a lot more time with it.

Potentially the biggest selling pin from stern in a long time...and Gary you gave the programming to dwight (no capital D on purpose). I had my check signed, then had to tear it up. The game mght be fine in a big collection, but man, how disappointing after IMDN. The bar has been set with IMDM, now match it.

It seems like every Stern pin has been getting mad code updates lately....except Ghostbusters. Grrrr.

“Part of this world”
What gives with this?
I read people on the Wonka thread saying “I want to FEEL like I’m going down a chocolate river”
WTF go watch the movie
Munsters has a bunch of quotes,clips that are fantastic
A MAAAAD GENIUS

My family and I love this game, to a person who wants a saga rules set sure it can use more. For the person who wants to shoot and have a blast this is great and also has a decent rule set, great flow and shots especially when you hit kitty that’s awesome feeling. Would love to hear grandpa more and some more substance to Eddie and Maryilin shots but it’s still great as it is. They are all having a blast and that’s all that matters, it’s a great game that will still be polished over time.

Just updated my LE, always fun to play. To those comparing Sterns POTC to JJP, mine has is heavily modded, less than
700 plays, and cost 60% + less. How much pirates does anyone need. JJP has issues just trying to keep it playing.

Played MM 3x over the weekend..awesome!!!......the code/ shots are in there to make this thing sick...hoping it manifests in later releases

The code definitely doesnt suck and its very addictive. Shallow maybe but it doesnt suck by any means. This game was coded like an older game on purpose to make it feel nostalgic. Its Sterns MB and they delivered big time.

What he said x 100

Exactly the same, had the coin ready, this theme actually got my spark interested in pinball again after a 3 year exit with no games

Stern to release Munsters....AWESOME NEWS.

So I watched every post, hoped for the best, watched the Dwight / Borg release video, heard the comment she's basically finished, saw the big paddle board targets, secretly hoped game still ok, PLAYED THE GAME MYSELF, within a few minutes of play the game had scored Lily for me, thankyou big paddle, and I had Herman sorted and one other so quickly and yet felt like I had personally done very little.

I walked away so disappointed then spent said saved money on a HUO basically brand new BM66 and also bought a Deadpool Premium.

Game is 8850 new in AUS $ and recently a PRO owner who tried to offload it after short ownership took 2-3 weeks to sell it on AUS most popular forum, for ~ 7500.

Making Open Source work requires strong (technical) leadership/planning on behalf of the company releasing the project. I was an early Open Source pioneer working on GCC and later LLVM/clang (two very popular compilers in Open Source land). I've also observed many other Open Source projects. I'm skeptical that Stern would ever adopt this model (licensing issues aside).

In theory, I agree it sounds like a viable solution. I just think the pragmatics (of how Stern operates) would make it very difficult.

If there was no Stern and the only players were JJP, Spooky, and Deeproot this hobby would f*cking SUCK!! Stern is making killer games right now and has been for years. All Pinheads should be extremely thankful for Stern Pinball, i know i am.

Munsters is a great game! Code is fine as is and will get better

Can’t even put Deeproot in that list

This . Stern has put out a LOT of product - something for everyone . For me - Munsters is an awesome game . Love it ! I don’t think it’s perfect ( Wonka doesn’t even come close to what I imagined it could be but I’ll wait to flip to decide if I like it ) but I love the game and think it will only get better with updates . My only regret is I would’ve bought secondary market if I had known people would dump it ( an LE for 8200 and it’s srill available , are you effin kidding me ?!!! ) but I’m very happy and don’t see it leaving the collection .

If I had $1 for every complainer post on the last 5 NIB releases (from whatever company you choose) I could buy a rum bar in St. Maartin..(wait... )

I bet it’s the same programmer guy that said quote “it takes more than three months to make a baby”

That’s hella funny but those couple games are dudes dumping to jump at Wonka not even knowing what they want
Wonka is cool but can’t touch Munsters come the fuck on

That.......relentless.......brain melting.......sack shrinking.......Broadway stage production music on WONKA......drove me insane after 2 minutes on all streams I have tried to watch.
Just horrendous.

Not just the music - but the canned/stock /slot machine/99 cent app sound FX are THE WORST. The generic clanks and dings and machine sounds....clearly just taken from a library and dropped in without any sound design or mixing. Offends my ears!

This thread sucks balls!! Stop the bullshit!

7-8 years ago, LE’s were $5500 new. I’m not surprised at all that a 9K LE doesn’t hold its value. Stern is outpacing the real market (the aftermarket) on price increases.

...but then they were $10k by Xmas!

Stern & JJP are just cutting out the flipper and fucking you up front.

I thumbs downed you btw...logic has no place in here!!! Get outta here with that attitude!!

Yes, this game is lacking, and there will probably never be a big update with tons more modes.

What Stern tried was a simple game that was fun, like TAF or MB. They failed however making it a ton of fun. You can barely stack modes, awful x rules, sound fx and callouts, bad super jackpot rules, non understandable scoring, Boring and lengthy animations. The ONLY way they can fix this is if they put some Williams magic on it.

I used to own 2 games my Dwight, STTNG and Junkyard. What made those games fun was that everything actually made sense and there was an understandable rule set that was satisfying to play and beat. Look at the Warp awards on STTNG or the Time Machine on Junkyard. Those awards are FUN and any player can get and enjoy them.

Here’s hoping to a solid 1.0 release.

I hope you are right but from what i am hearing i don't think that will happen.

Bullshit Thread.

Shouldn’t it be “worst” not “worse” code ever?