Not sure I have room for this and Elvira 3. Decisions, decisions.
Can't speak to SW, but that's certainly not the case with BM66. There are a few times the game holds the ball for a brief time (e.g. to the Batcave sequence) but that's it. And that's partly because the length of the sequence depends on what the player does.
The biggest issue I have with Batman is that since I'm usually playing by myself I am too busy keeping the ball in play that I haven't actually seen all the video. I've heard that some consider SW and GOTG "jukeboxes" because the video is somewhat disconnected from the game, but that's certainly not the case with BM (and may be opinions based on early code levels).
It's not reasonable to compare MBR to BM66 (or any other modern game). They are from different pin generations with different expectations of play. They were both coded by Lyman and have awesome theme integration- that's about as far as you can go.
MB wasn't ever considered a deep game compared to others in the WPC95 era and a new fancy color display on MBR isn't going to change that. But that doesn't automatically mean Munsters will be "better" even if it has more complex code.
Quoted from J85M:
Of this month? That’s a lot sooner than I was expecting, but great news if true, cannot wait to see this game just trying to keep my expectations in check and fingers crossed the premium artwork that leaked made it to production!
No inside knowledge but an educated guess based on comments from a couple of distributors. I'll be stunned if we don't see anything official this month.
Quoted from kermit24:
Did you really just copy and paste the release notes? Dude. Way over dramatic.
How many of these have you owned / played extensively? You are a serious keyboard commando here. Way over the top vireland
vireland is frequently over the top. He’s never gotten over Batman not being released with 1.0 code. Stern told everyone at Expo what was going to happen, he bought the game knowing the code situation and bitched about it relentlessly for over a year. You want way over dramatic? Check out his posts in the Batman thread.
Stern has gotten significantly better with code over the last couple of years but still hasn’t reached their stated goal of feature complete at release. If that’s a problem for you, don’t buy a game until you are saisified with the code.
I bought a Batman LE because I wanted an LE and was willing to gamble that Lyman would make things right. And it was absolutely worth the gamble. But that’s the last time. I’m not going to buy and bitch.
I want both Munsters and Elvira but if I miss out on an LE because I’m not happy with the code at launch, so be it. Like everyone, I always want the code to be better. But it’s my responsibility to buy a game only when I’m happy with the code not before. I think Stern has finally learned that code matters, but we have to emphasize that by not buying games that aren’t at acceptable levels of code (or quality).
Quoted from Tranquilize:
“Don’t buy it then” is simply a put down, an attempt to limit opinions.
I didn’t say “don’t buy it”. I said don’t buy it until you are happy with the code. Big difference.
Those that buy and bitch are rewarding Stern for bad behavior. If buyers don’t make feature complete code a priority, Stern certainly won’t.
Quoted from Atari_Daze:
Maybe I don't understand modern pins, but aren't these computer games now, could they not have an option of which one the owner prefers?
Or is that the whole 'code' can of worms issue?
Coding wise it’s easy.
The work is having to develop two different versions of every audio sample.
Quoted from aingide:
They're definitely using a Paul Lynde sound-alike, which is absolutely amazing (in a good way).
I never thought I'd see the day we'd get Paul Lynde in a pinball machine. Incredible. [quoted image]
Dwight listed the name of the voice actor in the deadflip stream but apparently my screenshot didn’t happen and I don’t remember the name. The use of a Lynde voice fits in perfectly with a game themed from a 60s sitcom.
Quoted from iceman44:
Think of it this way. It’s kind of like what’s the “story” of BM66
Not hardly. In Batman you are essentially playing episodes of the series, each of which is a story on its own. Each villain mode has a beginning, middle and end. I certainly didn’t see anything like that in the stream yesterday for Munsters.
Quoted from noob-a-tron:
Did this many people cancel on the Iron Maiden LE seems like a few are not happy.
Don’t know about IM but I cancelled my Munsters LE tonight because my wife and I decided the LE art package just didn’t do it for us. We both agree the Premium is a better fit with the theme/show.
Quoted from cpr9999:
Not what I am hearing or seeing.
LEs sold out at most distributors. (Called around most big distributors say sorry no LEs).
Everyone else enjoy B&W if you want Grandpa mini playfield!
Here is another poll on Pinside- looks like all 3 are fairly equal with 280 votes.
Then you aren’t paying attention to the threads. Yes, the LE is difficult to find, but there are many that gave up an LE slot (myself included) that cancelled an LE to go with another model. That LEs are sold out doesn’t mean there was more demand for LEs than Premiums, it means there is more overall demand for the game and that more people that would have been otherwise shut out of an LE now have the opportunity to get one because early LE buyers like the Premium better.
My Sterns have always been LEs. And I was expecting this to be the same. But I really preferred the art package on the Premium more than the cachet of an LE. And that seems to be the case wth a lot of folks. That’s not a knock on the LE, that’s a tip of the cap to the Premium.
Damn. Can’t get down there today. But I’ll be there tomorrow to decide on a Premium or a Pro!
Quoted from DavidPinballWizz:
Can you reach level 2 in a certain mode before playing munster madness the first time?
A bit like monster bash then, you start a mode (level 1) and/or complete it (level 2)
If I understood Dwight correctly on the stream, no. Can’t start level 2 until level 1 is complete. It was also unclear how level 2 was more difficult than level 1.
I’m fine with “level 1 is pretty easy if level 2 is varied and harder”. I’m not going to be interested enough in getting the game if it’s “chop wood and spend more time chopping the same wood again”.
Background - I’m very interested in Munsters. Cancelled an LE order because I really didn’t like the cabinet art and wasn’t sure about the color PF. I liked the looks of both the Premium and the Pro. But I was very concerned that the code was too shallow and wondering if the lower pf would get old in home play, and, whether it is essentially worth $1600 more than a Pro.
Played both the Premium and the Pro today for a little over an hour. Here are my initial thoughts after seeing them in person.
- all that’s missing is the lower PF and two sign boards above the ramps. Certainly a full-featured Pro compared to some recent titles.
- Really like the translite. Best of the three games (not a big fan of the coach on the LE. Although cool, it reminds me more of the Beverly Hillbillies).
- didn’t miss not having the mini playfield during play.
- seeing the game in person changed my view on the color. It looks far too bright. If Franchi had essentially turned down the overall brightness knob and muted the colors ever so slightly it would have been a great compromise between in your face color and the black and white. I like the color far less in person than in the pictures and videos I’ve seen. The other thing that was very noticeable was the the green GI and colored LEDs gave the playfield even more saturated color during play which made the color playfield even more bothersome/annoying to me.
- don’t really like that the art on both sides of the cabinet is just flipped. I would have liked to see a b&w version of the left side Pro cabinet art.
- the lower playfield cover needed adjustment. The ball was noticeably deflected because the cover was not level. I presume that’s because it wasn’t adjusted after being set up but am wondering if this could be a long term issue.
Also wondered if you could avoid this problem by taking off the cover and putting the Pro version of the petg playfield protector (assuming one is made) over the playfield or if the protector isn’t thick enough to cover over that large a hole without dipping.
- I don’t like the Premium translite as much as the Pro. Wondered if the Pro translite would look out of place on the Premium. But not enough of an issue to rule out the Premium
- liked the mini playfield. Fun. Still not sure if it will get old in home play after the novelty wears off. It would be ideal if there is a setting to disable it if ou don’t want the flow of the game interrupted (which I really didn’t mind).
- The black/white/grayscale art looks AWESOME in person. The pictures and video to date has not done it justice. The green GI is absolutely perfect and the other LEDs add enough color (light shows are awesome) to complement the b&w art. If you are on the fence because you aren’t sure you will like black and white or you think it looks dated or won’t fit in your collection go see one in person before you order. Any doubt about the b&w art I may have had is gone.
- I didn’t like the placement of the two sets of flipper buttons. Changing from one to another didn’t feel as smooth as I thought it should, but I’m sure this is more of a personal preference rather than a design issue.
The Premium was on 0.90 code. Don’t know about the Pro.
I was initially comparing the video to that of Batman 66 which is a very unfair comparison because Munsters use more or less random interchangeable clips that enhance the theming but don’t really add anything to the game play and uses a lot more custom art. The font is more annoying in person, but a minor complaint. The strange thing is that it still fits because the game does feel like an homage to the WPC era when games were simpler.
That brings me to what I was most concerned about - code depth. I got to Munster Madness one game. I’m really not that good of a player and I was more interested in seeing how particular shots were than trying to get a great score so I was kind of surprised.
But I found the game very fun to shoot. I have never had a Borg game so although the layout is familiar to some it was new to me. I absolutely loved the ramps and will probably spend a lot of time just trying to do left/right ramp combos. The left ramp disappearing behind the playfield and the 180 on the right ramp are great. Anyone who has a BM66 and doesn’t like how the orbit shots are so tight will love the smooth as butter orbit shots. Didn’t mind the long Dragula target but Lily should have been individual stand ups or drops (I love drop targets).
In a large collection or for those of us that aren’t pro level players I think the game will be fine. What I saw of the code depth doesn’t bother me as much as it did when I was just watching other people play. It was just fun. A little hectic and some “I really don’t know what’s going on here”. I love the music and the laugh track (if you don’t, it will get old. Think Disney and Small World). And using a Paul Lynde sound alike was brilliant and will be appreciated by anyone who remembers 60’s sitcoms. If Dwight’s vision was “old school, but modern” then this game seems to have hit the mark.
When I went in, I thought I was leaning Pro over Premium. That flipped. If there was a b&w Pro, I’d probably prefer that just because I think the lower pf is fun, but not a must have. Or maybe a Premium with a lower pf in color. But don’t think having/not having the lower pf is going to matter either way long term.
Oh yeah - the Dragula car on the playfield is a tiny, disappointing waste of space. I’m sure the modders will come up with a kickass replacement though.
I don’t have too many pictures because the overhead glare in the front of the Game Exchange showroom made it difficult to get some good shots.
Quoted from pinzone:
Is it just me ,,or does the Munster theme song playing throughout get old and annoying? So what to buy ,but theme song gets old fast.Would like to hear from other old school Munster fan's, for I am a big one.
Nope. Played for over an hour. Didn’t get old at all. I’ve always loved that theme and this is a fun rendition.
Quoted from snaroff:
The sign boards above the ramps seem more like a compromise than a "feature". The Pro has PF inserts that represent the sign lights (the Premium inserts were removed to make space for the lower PF).
Good point. I had noticed the insert differences. Don’t think the sign boards are anything anyone is going to miss if they go with a Pro.
I also forgot to mention that the “cut and paste” of the artwork on the Pro covering the lower pf window looks significantly better in person (i.e. the octopus tentacle looks like it’s coming out of the floor)
Quoted from Zablon:
Am I the only one that thinks the LE backglass image is the best one? I keep seeing everyone bag on it. I think the casket is the best cab art. I love the B&W but overall the art on all of the playfields is okay at best.
Talked to a small group of people today and there was no consensus:
Love the mini playfield
The mini playfield isn’t worth the $
Love the B&W
Hate the B&W
Glad I got the LE - love the coffin
Don’t like the LE so looking at the others
The color looks great
The color is too bright
I don’t like the translite as much as the one on the LE/Premium/Pro
That’s the beauty of the three models - something for everyone. Pick the one that has the fewest things you dislike.
But I didn’t hear anyone say “Nope. Not interested in any of them”
Quoted from Captainhook:
Another issue I noticed today while playing the pro at Game Exchange. I was having a good game and then all of a sudden the whole machine completely blacked out? Then booted itself back up. Node board problem? I don't think I'll be buying these new Spike system games till they figure these node Boards out!
When I saw it I thought it looked exactly like a WPC low voltage reboot. It was a little startling. But it’s most likely a power issue, not related to node boards.
However that does raise a good point. My biggest concern about buying any new Stern game is the long term viability/repair ability/availability (and non-standardization) of node boards 3-5-10 years down the road. This is the first Spike 2 game I’ve had any serious interest in other than Batman. There are a number of other threads to talk about those issues, but there is an inner voice aware of that concern slightly tempering the childlike excitement and anticipation of a new game.
Quoted from cooked71:
I listened to the interview before any gameplay reviews and I was a bit concerned he’s deliberately made it too shallow (for home use). It looks as though early gameplay reviews are confirming that.
That’s clearly true in the current code.
However, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It should do well on location and with casual players because of that. And for most home collectors having a game that’s fun to shoot and just score points on is fine as part of a larger collection.
The Munsters may become this pinball generation’s Creature - a good looking game with solid theme integration and catchy music that’s relatively easy for anyone to play.
It’s deeper than ToM for sure and probably similar to AFM/MM however it feels like something is missing compared to AFM/MM (perhaps because it’s easier to figure out what you have to do on those games). Munsters will be fine for most households unless someone is a pro level player.
Quoted from Squizz:
large target for Dragula is fine, BUT not having drops for Lily on the Premium and LE's is just disgraceful....
1000 thumbs up if I could. Most obvious design flaw in the game for sure. I don’t really like (but understand) the Dragula target. But it is very easy to complete without trying and provides near zero challenge. Doesn’t help that the Dragula animation is one of the weakest in the game and yet one you see over and over.
Quoted from JustLikeMe:
The Premium is a good looking machine even if the B&W doesn’t look quite as striking in person as it does in the promo pics.
Interesting. I felt just the opposite - much more striking in person.
Pretty much agree with everything else though have changed my mind from “too simple/easy/shallow” to “shallow may be ok in this case”.
I’m sorry. That segment came across as “fan boys who didn’t pay attention selling the game”. Neither had apparently played the it, but that didn’t stop them from practically drooling over every aspect of the game.
I generally like them but this was too early and over the top.
Bug or feature -
My wife and I played a number of two player games yesterday. After punching in player 2 the game stayed with Player 2 displayed and player 2 played first, then the game went to player 1.
Was this backwards because the norms in the Munsters are backwards? Or just a bug in the 0.90 level code?
Either way, it was very confusing. Should have thought to try a 3 or 4 player game to see what happened with those.
Quoted from Blacksun:
I'm sure Munsters game play will drastically change with future updates just as GOTG has...
Code is at 0.90 now. Not sure it’s reasonable to expect a drastic change without buy in from Dwight and perhaps not even then. Certainly Stern has an idea of early interest (which seems to be far better than other recent titles) which doesn’t seem to be impacted by the currently implemented code.
Quoted from Ven:
Already have my Grandpa shooter rod done, now to just get the pin.
I have a few extras that I made, these are hand painted resin and are mounted to a shooter rod. I might end up making some Herman ones but they take quite a bit of time to make so I will have to see.
I have an ad on the market place for the extra ones I currently have if anyone is interested.
Quoted from bigd1979:
Huh? Ill just make the switch gap as big as possible (so it still registers) that way
it takes a hard direct hit to activate it and not a random bounce or ricochet of something ...
So on the L I L Y targets you only want it to register if you hit the area by first L or the Y? I’m confused.
Quoted from Bublehead:
I think that you may have hit on part of what is goind on, but I think there is a combination of marketing strategy going on here... I think they wanted to target the nostalgia market, but they also want to target a broader casual player market than the HUO and serious competition players. This means game play must resonate with the casual player, so its targeted to the guy who has played pins before maybe in bars, has watched the show when young, and might have the discretionary cash to buy one for his game room. The pro model will appeal to ops and casual players, the LE to cash in on the deep pocketed nostalgia and collector types, and the premium for the more serious players and fans of the show but who may not have THAT much spare change hanging around. All of this makes good marketing sense for this title imo, so I think Stern approached this pin fairly well. That it is not deep enough for the serious pinhead means maybe this title is just not for them? We should see how it fairs in a tournament and see if it gets blown out or if someone discovers an exploit before passing all judgment. I still haven’t flipped one yet and can’t wait to try it at TPF.
Another reason why it may not be deep - Stern may have significantly underestimated how long it takes to develop software for games in the LCD era and effectively use the available video assets (or develop custom ones).
Compare use of AV assets in Batman vs. Munsters - huge difference. The Munsters clips are borderline generic and generally don’t relate to game play other then depicting the related major character. In Batman you essentially play through an episode of the show with playfield shots directly related to the clips used.
In the LCD era people are going to want to play iconic moments of the show or movie or whatever the license brings not just flip through random 5 second clips more suited for a slot machine. But how do you balance that goal with the time and resources necessary to do that? Video is orders of magnitude harder than dots.
As awesome as the Batman code is, look how long it took. Granted some of that may be fairly attributed to growing pains on the new platform and essentially redesigning game play on the fly but imagine the time it took Lyman just to identify the episodes to use and then how to match the play with the flow of the show. Stern can’t afford to do that every game like JJP.
So the idea of “Munsters as a throwback to less complicated games” helps because it reduces the complexity of integrating specific assets and one required to do so. That’s fine for a game every cycle or so, but it shouldn’t become the norm.
Quoted from jonesjb:
I recall the Munsters Today (80s remake) show. It seemed like the humor came from making cheesy puns based around mixing every day words with horror words. Like something the Cryptkeeper may do. Not very funny and gets old. I’m assuming the original Munsters wasn’t as reliant on this type of humor style?
Quoted from Captainhook:
So let's do an in thread poll . If you are buying the game and you have played it give me a up vote. If you are buying the game and have not played it give me a down vote.
I’ve played it, but still haven’t decided. I’m more likely than not to buy one so giving you a thumbs up anyway. But I would have flipped the thumbs up/down criteria.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
So what are your thoughts after playing it jfh? Did you love it, find it to be nothing special and just ok or what?
Quoted from Bublehead:
The only way to know FOR SURE a machine is for you is by playing the machine, but @who-dey I think is right, not all can get to a show or distributor showroom (if they still have one) or even on site to play before you buy, and so the early adopters may need to either take risks or do what ever they can to see game play or reviews...
Except there is absolutely no reason to be an early adopter unless you just have to have an LE. Premiums and Pros will be available NIB for years.
I loved the idea of MB. I kept an original NOS playfield from 1998/1999 for years. Finally had the playfield cleared and had a fantastic restoration done. The game was a crown jewel in my game room. It didn’t last much more than six months. It was beautiful, I loved the music, but it was just so shallow. And I’m not a very good player. Sold one of the nicest MBs that probably exist and don’t regret it for a second.
I think Munsters is shallow (currently) but I would absolutely choose it over MB/MBR
Quoted from Who-Dey:
Would you be happy if Stern raised their prices to where JJP's were and upped their quality?
Unfortunately when JJP looked like it was for real Stern used the cover of JJPs higher prices to raise their own without any significant increase in build quality. The JJP LEs are the best thing ever to happen for Stern.
Quoted from Squizz:
Yup, Sold my Batman 66 to get Munsters LE
OMG! Batman is absolutely an untouchable game for me. Can’t imagine any game I would consider selling it for.
Hope you weren’t a huge fan of it and that Munsters works out for you (or that you can get a Batman back easily)
Quoted from Jvspin:
Will people pay more for the game if they add a drop target bank? Will the lack of a drop target bank significantly hurt sales? If .
It’s pretty clear that for this game it’s made some difference. I know it has for me. I’ve delayed a decision on Munsters and the side unitargets played a part.
I suspect there’s plenty of wiggle room to have included a 4 target bank in these games. But Stern profitability is focused on having us pay more for less. It’s not going to change unless they see it costing them real money.
Take the return of real cabinet braces to games. Did they do that because so many were asking for them? No they did it because the cost of replacing/replacing games damaged by the cheaper cabinets probably exceeded the incremental cost of them by a significant amount.
Quoted from westofrome:
Folks new to pinball also play plenty of 90s and earlier games on location and know full well how awesome and satisfying a real knocker can be.
It’s also awesome to make a great shot on a Gottlieb EM with 2” flippers and hear the score reels turn. Doesn’t mean I need that satisfaction in a modern game.
Of all the things that have been removed from the recent generations of games the loss of the cabinet knocker bothers me the least.
Quoted from benheck:
Why make a game deep when Stern knows you'll barf out cash as long as it's pretty looking with a desirable old man theme?
Because for some of us that like desirable old man themes that don’t like to churn through games or have to sell a favorite to make room for a new game, theme and decent game play is no longer enough. Deep code will almost always tip the scale for a home buyer.
Munsters should do very well on location. But not so sure about homes.
This old guy was excited Day 1 for Munsters. Probably would have bought already at a lower price point despite the code because I have a large enough collection. Still want one, but waiting. I was going to buy Batman no matter what (and I bought early) but the days of “barfing up cash because it’s purdy” are over.
Quoted from Bundy:
And the biggest market for Stern is?
I think sometimes many hardcore Pinsiders forget we are not the only intended customers for the product nor are we the biggest customer group.
I think/hope most Pinsiders know that. These are still commercial machines with a coin door.
I also suspect private sales in general are a far higher percentage than Stern admits (though since thy don’t sell direct they may not care).
And I didn’t say designing a game that will probably do better on location was bad. Just that sales on the Munsters will probably swing more to the operator/location side as long as the code is considered shallow. (Look what happened to Batman after the code matured and got far deeper - sales spiked despite the higher pricing on the Premium)
Quoted from tonycip:
How do you feel about Toy Story or Willy Wonka?
Waiting to buy a JJP Toy Story if done well. Family been wanting this ever since the initial rumors. Helps that we are all Toy Sory/Disney fans.
Probably not intrested enough in Willy Wonka to buy one.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
Hey do you want a fun game with shallow code or a turd with a deep code? Take your pick because you cant have your cake and eat it too!
Your logic is flawed. If I think a game is a turd I’m never going to buy it even if it has deep code.
I’m not saying I won’t buy a game with shallow code if I think it’s fun. One of my favorite games is CFTBL. Not sure there is a modern SS game that has shallower code. It has great theme integration and I love to play it. It will be one of the last games to leave my collection.
I’m saying that if I’m going to buy a new game at today’s prices - and displace a game I already love - it has to have everything for me and have a strong chance of being a long term keeper. It has less chance of being a keeper with shallow code because part of the fun for me is challenging myself to get to stuff I’ve never or rarely done before.
Quoted from Skyemont:
When updating the code, do you have to switch the dip switch settings? I have the usb in, turn on the game and it just boots right up. Bypasses the usb..
No need to change dip switches. Either the game doesn’t recognize the code on the USB stick (usually because it wasn’t loaded properly), the USB stick itself is bad or unrecognized (probably because it’s too big) or the USB port you are using on the CPU board is bad (try the other one)
Hint - run a USB extension cable from the backbox to the coin door down the left inside of the cabinet. Makes code updates much easier.
Quoted from vireland:
I hate to say it, but the more I play it, the more Munsters feels like the launch of bare-bones Batman '66. Almost exactly, actually.
The biggest difference is (and it’s huge) BM66 code was alpha (.64 if I recall) where Munsters is essentially done (.91). And then Lyman essentially started over en route to make Batman the game we have today.
Zero indication we will see any Lyman-like effort to fundamentally change the Munsters. Hope so, but not counting on it.
Quoted from Spacemanratso09:
How does .91 mean done?
.91 doesn’t mean done and the release numbers are somewhat meaningless EXCEPT that George indicated not too long ago that 1.00 was going to be used to mean essentially feature complete. Given that you can surmise that a game at .91 is close to complete than one at .64
Quoted from Spacemanratso09:
You don’t know what people are thinking and you certainly don’t know what’s coming.
No, I don’t. But I never claimed too.
I too love the theme. I really enjoyed the few games I have played so far.
I was planning to buy Day 1, but have decided to wait and see what happens with the code because I’m concerned it will get old FOR ME at home if the current code is pretty close to all there is going to be. My impression is that this is similar to a modern Monster Bash, a game I coveted for years, but lasted a very short time when it was in my game room. Not sure how that makes me a basher ...
I may still get a Premium or a Pro, but they will be making them for years. I don’t have to have one tomorrow.
Quoted from JayLar:
People who have actually played both the Pro and Premium - which one do you prefer and why?
I preferred the Premium because I like the lower playfield (and the fact you can disable it if you want and use Pro rules). But I loved how smooth the Pro was.
When I played it was on a Premium where the playfield cover wasn’t flush/level so there was some ball misdirection and speed loss so it felt slower than the Pro. IMO, the Premium was fast, the Pro blazingly fast. Game play is all but identical except for Grandpa’s lab. If you don’t have a strong preference then the question boils down to “Is the mini playfield worth $1600 to you?”
I happen to like the black & white art package better, so I suspect if I get one it will be a Premium if I am reasonably confident the cover can be leveled correctly. But waiting to make a final decision (probably until fall) to see what happens with the code.
Quoted from iceman44:
Stern included, except for that low quality POS garbage box of lights called BM66
Hmmm, how did that one start out day one?
People were squealing like a bunch of stuck pigs
Nah. The only one really squealing was vireland and that was his own fault. The impatient ones sold and those that hung on were rewarded with a Lyman masterpiece and a game that will probably go down has having one of the best thematic integrations ever. Yes there are a few design flaws, but demand for HUO games exceeds supply (no apparent price softening) and Stern is running another batch soon because distributors want more. And the LEs have gone up, perhaps because the LEs were actually limited (SLEs are another story).
Munsters Pro should hold its value reasonably well because it’s not really dumbed down game play wise. I suspect both the Premiums and LEs will take a resale hit because of the “is the lower playfield really worth $1600?”, the divide on the color vs Black/White art and the relative number of LEs.
Quoted from vireland:
I'm serious when I say in its current state it's VERY similar to the condition Batman'66 shipped in. Almost 1 to 1 comparison on what's there right now. It's a poor start and I hope Dwight is committed to making it as great as the art package and license demands.
Then, just like you didn’t pay attention with what we were told about the Batman code at the time, you haven’t been paying attention to what Dwight has said.
While I agree with you that the Munsters code feels shallow and unfinished at release (though not quite as BM66) Dwight has made it quite clear that the current code is pretty much the intended design/direction for the game. Although many would like to see a Batman-like code transformation I just don’t see that happening.
Batman Premium sales initially floundered because of code. By all accounts Munsters is selling very well. I may be in the minority as I cancelled an LE order in part because of the level of game play. I’m waiting to see what happens with code and may get a Premium or Pro, but I don’t think Stern is going to beef up the code unless they believe sales are being significantly impacted.
What’s the initial thinking from LE owners on long term playability of the lower PF? Do you think the novelty will wear off?
Quoted from Colsond3:
I’m not an Munsters LE owner, but I have played some pinball.
I don’t think any lower playfield will ever top the likes of Black Hole or Haunted House: reversed orientation, pop bumpers, drop target banks, orbits, captive balls, etc. Those were stellar, especially for the time period, and still are today.
I agree about HH/BH. Was just playing HH today and thinking how much of a difference full size flippers and drop targets make compared to what I remember from the few games I’ve played on a Munsters Premium. I like the Munsters implementation much better than Stewie pinball but having a hard time deciding if I would like it long term to pay the difference between a Pro and a Premium.
Quoted from Colsond3:
Definitely. Having 3 inch flips on the lower PF makes you feel like you’re just playing another playfield, not some “sub playfield”.
I’ll have to put some games up on a pro and premium, but truth be told, I’m not real fond of the artwork on the LE. And the red cab stripe seems a little out of place. The premium might be the way to go.
I cancelled my LE because I just didn’t like the art package. I really like the b/w on the Premium over the color on the LE/Pro but just haven’t decided if it’s worth $1600 for the lower playfield. The Pro may be good enough even though it seems to be cheating by having the color playfield when the series is so identified by black and white.
Quoted from bohunr:
Mine arrived yesterday driver didn't call ahead and dropped it off at my front door, got it in the house when I got home but no unboxing yet. I got a call I might be getting my MBLE tomorrow unless then messed up and have 2 unboxing's.
Glad there are no pinball loving porch pirates in your area ...
Munster Madness was already pretty easy. Not sure why a new version was made easier.
Quoted from Spacemanratso09:
Come back in six months and see if your right and you can tell me all about it
I am not a code junkie
I like more but I like the game now
This game always makes me smile
I’m glad you like the game. I like it too but am waiting 6 months or so to see if I actually want to own one long term.
Quoted from 1956PINHEAD:
Since new game code has just come out I have a basic question for those who are all knowing when it comes to coding. My question really pertains to general game settings found in the utilities menu to set the game to Home play, Directors, Medium, or easy, play etc. When changing those particular settings what exactly does that do with respect to changing or altering game code?, and is that built into all game code updates so as game code progresses those other parameters change along with it ?
I leave the bulk of all game settings to factory defaults, with minor adjustments to slings, eject power, ball saves, or other top level menu adjustments, but have never changed any of those other settings I made reference to above. So I was just curious what all happens to a game (not specific to Munster's), but in general for Stern Whitestar, Spike, etc. when you change those settings.
Thanks in advance!
The Install settings you mention simply set a series of individual adjustments. Think of them as a shortcut for entering a series of specific values for some number of adjustments. Each of those adjustments are static and don’t change the game code but change parameters the code uses (e.g. how many shots to x are required to satisfy goal y or is a required to do b).
For example, if there is an adjustment for a HARD setting it might disable ball save and set the number of shots needed to complete three different modes (or whatever) to the maximum number (e.g. don’t spot any S-P-O-T lights) or an adjustment for HOME would automatically set Free Play to YES.
Quoted from Durzel:
Funny how the hype dies out immediately as soon as a new pin is seen. Black Knight, and now Wonka. People (some, not all) just lose their minds and all sense of perspective when it comes to new stuff being announced.
There has been less than one page of "hype" posts for Munsters in the last month... That speaks volumes to people's attention spans in my opinion.
Is hype a damaging thing for new pins, or is it just that it's natural that people want to get excited for the latest, greatest pin and that it's ultimately harmless?
No need for hype once a pin is available and people can see it, play it and decide for themselves.
Quoted from robotron:
i see many munsters for sale. le pre and pro, i know there are alot of new toys but this is still not a good sign.
Agree. It has more to do with the depth of code than anything else. Some are upgrading from Pros to Premiums, but it seems like there is a fair amount of concern about longevity in a collection and the quick exits from collections are more than normal flipping.
Assuming there is no significant code update the next 4-6 months will give us an idea if Munsters is a true hit or a could have been that benefited from early sales and a theme so many wanted to see succeed.
Just saw the first Pro for sale under $5k at $4800. Pretty sure it’s the TPF raffle winner but it’s disappointing to see all these Pros for sale so quickly and the $5k line being broken so soon.
I have a sad feeling that Stern doesn’t have much more time for Munsters sales and that if Elvira 3 comes out this fall as expected that will further cannibalize sales since I expect the two games will appeal to the same buyers and Elvira certainly won’t have shallow code with Lyman at the helm.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
There is certainly no guarantee that Elvira will be as good as Munsters is. Maybe code wise but definitely not design wise. John Borg is awesome and he did a fantastic job on Munsters. I also suspect that most of the people who like horror themes will probably want both of these games in their collections along with Monster Bash as well, i know that i definitely do.
As far as resale value goes i could care less. I dont buy games to sell them and if i do i realize that im going to lose a little money. The Munsters is one of Sterns best games ever in my opinion and its really a shame that it is receiving so much hate because it damn sure doesn't deserve it. Most of the negative bullshit is coming from people that dont have a fucking clue and are nothing but haters wanting to shit on Stern and the people who own this great game. Its the kind of shit that makes me mad about this site.
If its a bad game and it deserves the hate then thats one thing but if its not people seriously need to shut up because they are ruining this hobby. The Munsters is a good game people and Stern put a lot of work into this title. It sucks that a bunch of Pinside babies have to do this to this game.
Much of the handwringing on Munsters is not coming from Stern haters but from Munsters fans that really wanted the game to be a success but are concerned that the code is too dumbed down for a modern game. Fun layout (except for the stupid monotargets and lack of drop targets), fantastic ramps and good/great art packages.
And yet you trash the Elvira design before you even see it to make Munsters look better? Come on. You have fanboy blinders on and that is just as bad as those that hate for the sake of hating. Bullshit is bad whether it’s positive or negative.
Like you, I don’t worry about the resale value of my games because I’m a buy and hold type. But resale concerns me as part of the overall market and as an indicator of how well a particular title is received because that will determine what level of resource Stern will put into a game post-release. That’s especially important to me for games I want (like Munsters). Yes, I’m sure there will be some that buy both Munsters and Elvira. But more will have to choose one or the other because of money and/or space.
For me, it should have been easy because I like the Munsters theme a lot more than Elvira. I’m upset not because of what Munsters is today but that it almost certainly will not become what it could have/should have been. And Stern has telegraphed pretty clearly that what we see now is pretty much it which means a Munsters Premium in my game room has gone from a certain lock to less than a 50/50 proposition.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
Where the hell did i trash Elvira's design, care to point that out to me? I am a Stern fanboy, you are 100% right about that, and thats because they make great games. I am a fanboy of any pinball thats good.
Dude all i can tell you is, that you are missing out on a great f*cking game especially if you like this theme. I asked you once and you never responded, when you played Munsters at the shows or wherever you played it, did you have a decent understanding of the rules or were you just flipping? If you think getting to Munster Bash is the pinnacle of this game then you are way wrong.
Read the first line of your post I responded to which clearly inferred that the Elvira design won’t be as good as Munsters even if the code is.
I’m pretty sure I did respond to your other question elsewhere. I have played both Munsters Pro and Premium multiple times (easily over 100 games) in multiple venues with both early and current code. Did I have a decent understanding of the rules the first time I played? No. But I learned them quickly and discovered that, with a few exceptions, Munsters is essentially a one-trick-maximize-the-jackpots-pony. That’s not enough for me to own an $8k game no matter how much I like the theme. If that’s enough for you, great. I hope you enjoy the game for years.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
Just remember though that no code usually is great fresh off the assembly line and Munsters has only been out for 2-3 months. The foundation of the code is definitely there and wont change a lot maybe but i wouldn't neccessarily say that the code wont get better just yet either.
What you seem to be forgetting is that unlike many other games just off the line where the code was just the foundation, Dwight has made it very clear that the Munsters code is essentially done. If that changes, I’m sure many will reconsider the game. ST and BM66 are great examples of games whose sales improved as a direct result of code improvements. But if Stern doesn’t believe they will get enough of a sales boost by improving the code they won’t spend the money to do so.
Stern dumbed down Borg’s design by removing the drop targets, the very cool Grandpa’s trap door and an unspecified mech in the back of the game so we already know John planned for Munsters to be better. If buyers keep settling for “good enough” why should Stern change? It’s too late for the hardware. Maybe they have met their forecasted sales targets and don’t care. But if all Stern hears is “Munsters is the greatest game ever” there’s no need for them to beef up the code. There is absolutely no reason why Munsters can’t be more approachable for casual players as Dwight wanted (as it is) and be deeper for better players or home buyers.
Not every game Stern makes is great. Some are. Munsters should have been great. It still can be and I’m hoping that it will. But I’m realistic enough to know that’s more unlikely than not. And with the number of games for sale so soon in the lifecycle it looks like others agree. Every secondary market sale is one less potential sale for a distributor and one less game off the assembly line which doesn’t do anything for Stern.
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:
How do you know this to be true?
I don’t. Only a few people in Stern know the actual figures, but it’s a pretty safe assumption.
There is a concept in business known as ROI (return on investment). Most successful businesses don’t make an investment unless the investment is expected to return more than what would have otherwise been expected. In the case of software that return could be measured in incremental unit sales (Munsters games) or customer goodwill (buyers have faith that Stern will improve the code and are willing to gamble on being an early adopter).
Look at Batman 66 - perfect example of both. Stern said at the outset that Lyman would be allowed to complete the code to his vision. As it became clear that was happening, Premium demand increased and multiple additional runs of the game resulted. Early buyers of the game - most of whom spent more money on a Stern game than ever before - had their faith in Stern renewed/increased because the company fostered goodwill by keeping that promise. Win-Win.
If Stern is happy with sales to date and projected sales meet expectations then the only reason to change course on the software plan would be to improve goodwill and that still involve some sort of ROI decision.
Quoted from Colsond3:
attention spans will shift quickly these days with Stern pumping out several games a year. The hype used to last much longer when they were only releasing one game a year.
Let’s not fool ourselves. Stern is certainly about making money these days, not pumping out the best games possible. That is actually an impossibility when you are releasing multiple titles per year.
I agree 100%. I’ve long given up on ‘best games possible’. I expect Stern to have some so-so games, some good games and some great games. I’m just disappointed Munsters isn’t likely to end up in the latter category.
We should all be grateful to the cash infusions to both Stern and JJP that allowed both to stay relevant in pinball.
Quoted from Durzel:
I'd suggest buying the pins whose themes you actually like, rather than getting sucked up in the hype. That way you won't be disappointed.
Buy pins whose themes you like AND code you can be happy with.
I *love* almost everything about the Munsters game. Except the code. I’m disappointed I don’t own one. But I would have been *pissed* if I hadn’t cancelled my LE order when I did and feel badly for those let down by Stern (especially those who got an LE only because there wasn’t a color Premium option)
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