(Topic ID: 217394)

The Munsters Hype (Because every evening its Halloween)

By Macca101010

1 year ago

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  • Latest reply 8 months ago by guss
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Post #550 Munsters Premium and LE cabinet art Posted by pinsanity (1 year ago)

Post #8004 0.96 Code change summary Posted by PanzerFreak (10 months ago)

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#3775 1 year ago
Quoted from vireland:

That's the Beatles topper. You can tell it's the Beatles because you can kind of make out the heads, and you have Ringo's bass drum white circle on the backglass.

Kinda looks like the Addams topper to me.

Stern releasing TAFr before CGC do. I called it, please contact me to license this post on other websites, thanks.

#4240 1 year ago

I don't think I ever saw Munsters mentioned before the rumours started, then suddenly it's the new hotness. Like it might as well have not existed before that happened, it was just that slightly memorable show that was on decades ago that everyone forgot.

Is it fair to say that pretty much anything nostalgic that Stern crank out is going to be eaten up by anyone who just wants a new shiny thing? What next? Xena? The A-Team? LeXX?

If it's just people wanting any new theme in a shiny cabinet then that's one thing, but where has this previously non-existant Munsters fan club come from?

#4247 1 year ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

I always loved The Munsters since I was a kid. I even have a Munster's Koach model. But I never go out of my way to talk about them.

Fair dos. I remember watching it a fair bit but I couldn't tell you anything about any episode I saw. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I never knew it had such a big fanbase.

#4380 1 year ago
Quoted from extraballingtmc:

Why is the Addams family quote still in this thread title???

Just to remind everyone what the superior game (and show) is

#4412 1 year ago

The whole Lite thing can be explained quite simply as a popular pinball doing it once upon a time, then everyone copying it from that point onwards. Twas ever thus.

#4748 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

A negative about Munsters - it continues the Stern tradition of "busy artwork for the sake of busy artwork".
Combine this with a gaping hole in the playfield and the color LE looks very cramped. The B&W alleviates this a bit.
On that note - who cares if it copies AC/DC? Stern has realized by this point ya'll are just buying it for the art and nostalgia anyway.

Agreed. Compare this to something like Tron and tell me that you can look at the playfield and can see at a glance where all the inserts are and what shots are likely to involve them..

stern-pfs (resized).jpg

As said though it doesn't seem to matter because people appear to be happy to buy any new Stern pin because it's a) new and b) vaguely nostalgic.

#4880 1 year ago

No one's LE has been made yet has it so I don't know how much significance can be placed on those show plaques only showing X of 500...

#4954 1 year ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Then get rid of “limited edition” and go with model trim 1, 2, 3. Let people buy what model level they want.
Stern doesn’t do this because they get those 500 LE people on the hook before game hits the market. Clever marketing strategy. If they waited offering model 1..2.3 then they might not sell the higher level version out on (there most profitable version per machine).
So in this case Stern messing with LE owners will cause them to be upset and they may not order next time. They may wait it out cause if it is a popular theme “Stern will make more LEs.”
My 2 cents- let Zach know how you feel as an LE consumer!

You could argue that Vault editions mess with LE owners too.

Regardless of how one might feel about people buying pins as investments or with one eye on it, people do, and I think it's poor form to change the number of units you're going to make after you've already taken orders from people.

As you quite rightly point out "trim level 3" might not be enough to sell those units at top money, but "LE" and limited numbers would be. Adding 100 devalues that even if nothing else changes.

#4995 1 year ago

I don't think the extra 100 is the issue, it's the timing.

I don't imagine people buying an LE when it was X/500 would not have bought if it had been announced as X/600, or possibly even X/1000. But, crucially, selling something as limited, taking orders and money for it and then going "we could make some more money here, let's add another 100" is disrespectful of the existing LE buyers, and unprofessional.

Also I don't necessarily buy that Stern could sell an unlimited amount of LEs. The reason many people will buy a LE, at the inflated prices, is because it is sold as limited. The investment potential might not be at the forefront of customer's minds, but it would be a factor, and they would certainly be thinking that it ought to retain its value more. A $10,000 pin that pretty much anyone can get because supply exists to meet demand would simply mean that the value would depreciate in line with the non-limited editions. Limited edition as a concept only works as a value proposition when demand outstrips supply, and where the manufacturer understands and accepts that they could sell more but choose not to in order to create exclusivity. As was said earlier by another member - if they sold it as "trim level 3" it wouldn't have the same appeal. People would quite rightly just compare what you actually get for your extra cash over "trim level 2", and it becomes a different value proposition entirely.

Ultimately though the issue is of trust and professionalism I think. If Stern are prepared to change the parameters of LEs after the fact, when the order books are already open, there's no reason to trust that they wouldn't do it again, or even decide to do something else - more impactful - that would impact the value proposition or exclusivity of a LE purchase.

#5587 1 year ago

With enough LEs sold to prompt Stern to raise the number to 600 any gripes people have about diminishing build quality or weaker features like target banks vs individual drop targets, etc isn't being reflected in demand.

In my opinion there's no justification for the LE/Prems not having drop targets, but it won't matter or change until such time as the market decides it isn't going to tolerate it.

#5747 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

I thought it was a pretty simple question I don't know how I can dumb it down anymore .

Your question is pretty reductive, that's why.

If you want an equally reductive answer - why bother buying the pins at all? Just donate the money directly to the American workers and cut out the middle man completely? Problem solved!

The guy answered your question well already. The cost increases and build quality/feature decreases are nothing to do with paying American workers and everything about profit margins.

#5765 1 year ago

I can't even begin to imagine the cost of shipping assembled cabinets from anywhere in the World to the States, but I would presume it is by orders of magnitude higher than simply sourcing the wood domestically (a win from a PR point of view too, since the cabinet & playfield are the see, touch & feel parts of the game) owing to the volumetric and actual weight of them. I don't think it would be cost effective to even import playfield blanks from abroad.

"95-97%" is a very generous estimate of stuff sourced in the USA though. If you assume that pretty much everything under the playfield has likely come from China then 95% is a pretty high number. I guess it depends on what you deem a pinball machine to be. If it's the intellectual property, the rules, the software and the touchy feely stuff, then certainly it is American made.

1 week later
#6223 11 months ago
Quoted from MapleSyrup:

The only thing crazier than buying an LE before you’re ever flipped a game, is letting somebody else’s impression of said game determine how you feel about it.
This place gets nuttier every day.
This machine is super fun to play.
If you don’t love it, then sell it after enjoying it for a while. How much of a hit are you realistically going to take?! A couple of hundred bucks? You might make a bit of money, or break even. Nobody knows.
The question isn’t, “Is it 8K worth of fun?!”... The question is “Is it (hmmm, anywhere from $300 to me making a few bucks) worth of fun”
When was the last time somebody bought an LE and sold it for ZERO dollars?! The “value” discussion is so pointless. It’s totally out to lunch.
This theme is perfect for pinball. The Black and White Premium is a standout design wise, and people are clamouring for LEs.
Another Stern Homerun, and the accompanying Pinside freakout!!
I can’t wait to play it again.

This is from a while ago, but I'm trying to unpack what you're saying here.

You started off saying that it's crazy to buy a LE sight unseen, but then within a couple of sentences you appear to contradict yourself and suggest that people should buy LEs without hesitation because, to paraphrase you, "when was the last time someone lost money on a LE?". Others have quite rightly pointed out examples where LE value is not necessarily a sure thing.

You also say it's crazy for people to buy an LE based on "somebody else's impression of said game", then you go on to wax lyrical about how amazing it is in your opinion...

If you really dig The Munsters then I can see the logic of plumping for an LE sight unseen - it is the best version of a theme you love. Buying it simply because it's the new hotness, or because you are sucked up by the hype, on the other hand, is a risky proposition. It's very easy to get sucked up into hype, and there has been a lot of hype for this game - no one was really talking about The Munsters before the announcement, and now it's as if it was the theme that everyone was waiting for.

What I would say is that one shouldn't buy a Munsters LE thinking that because there is so much hype now that the value is sure to go up and up. Everyone is talking about it now because it's the latest thing that Stern have done, and people like hyping new shiny things. If/when they announce Jaws, or Elvira, or Xena the Warrior Princess, or Buffy, or The Punisher, or whatever this thread will tail off and suddenly that new pin will be the best thing since sliced bread.

#6240 11 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Agree. I expect the designers are on a pretty tight budget. Probably best to ask which feature(s) would you give up to get individual Lily stand-ups.

Are we being a bit generous in assuming that the price differential between a single target bank and drop targets is so big that it would make the pin uneconomical? It's not as if the pins have got any cheaper to buy.

#6357 11 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Why make a game deep when Stern knows you'll barf out cash as long as it's pretty looking with a desirable old man theme?
I've said it before but this hobby needs to get over art. You are all drunk on it. Look how many people and companies JPOP tricked with just art.
I guess that's the point of art, to create an emotional response. But in pinball that emotion is being used to mask other things. Like a magicians trick, look at the shiny object in this hand while I remove features with the other...

Stern needs competition. Right now they're pretty much the only game in town in terms of consistent releases. JJP have made 4 pins total and Stern have cranked out at least 7 in the past couple of years.

A near monopolistic position combined with a consumer base who will just throw money at new releases uncritically is not a great combo, at least as far as consumer focus is concerned.

#6644 11 months ago

Addams Family, please

I would suspect that side by side Munsters would make Addams look very old. But then it is very old, but is still super captivating to players new and old alike. There's lessons in there to learn I suspect.

I wonder if Stern had one eye on TAF in terms of coming up with a rule set for Munsters. TAF isn't remotely deep but makes money hand over fist.

1 week later
#7160 11 months ago

Is it possible that there is pressure to come up with layouts like this because they're safe?

Coming up with something off the wall might be alright if you're Pat Lawlor and JJP basically tells you to go nuts, but maybe not when you're working for Stern?

I dunno, just throwing ideas out there. I don't know any designer who wants to churn out samey, predictable work - unless they are disillusioned with what they're doing or (more likely) getting pressure externally on BOM, time, or whatever.

#7176 11 months ago

Problem is if you like Munsters then where else are you going to buy a Munsters pinball machine from?

Given the hype there was about Munsters in the first place, when previously there didn't appear to be any real mention of it or people clamouring for it, there appears to be a number of customers who just want to buy the latest, greatest NIB pin and will sing the praises of whatever that theme happens to be.

In that respect there is a captive audience with pinballs to a certain extent. What Stern needs really is serious competition in the "crank several new pins out every year" space. When they start to feel like their customers might not be as locked in as they think they are that's when you're likely to see margins being dialed back and BOM increases, not before, and certainly not because a bunch of people moan about it but still buy their stuff.

#7211 11 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I need to be talked down off the ledge....Ive got a deposit on an LE and I’m seriously thinking of bailing and buying Beatles Gold instead. In fact today I’m going to my distributors to play Beatles and decide.
Unlike some of the complaints, I love the look of this game - it’s pure Borg. I love the Le package. I like lower playfields. The whole game draws you in.
For me it’s purely code related. I know a game can improve with code, but listening to interviews and comments, this one sounds more or less complete - any changes will be mostly cosmetic.
I think I’ll just sit it out and wait for the premium to decide if the game has changed enough. I’m not a big fan of the black and white compared to the LE package but could live with it.
But then I can’t believe I’m considering a Beatles over this. I’m complaining about the simplicity of Munsters code, yet Beatles seems even more simple.

Get a Pro instead? Then if you don't like it sell it. Don't understand the logic of buying an LE when you're on the fence about whether to buy it at all.

1 week later
#7557 11 months ago

The absurdity of spending money on replacement legs, etc on day 1 of buying a NIB pin. What a time to be alive.

#7678 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I agree. I like the theme, but not enough to keep it in my collection.
The good: Great ramps, smooth shooting, beautiful art.
The bad: The clanging Herman toy/mech is pathetic (barely moves). The massive LILY/DRAGULA targets are lame. The rules are really, really shallow and uninspiring.
Mine arrived on 2/21 and I've already decided to sell it to an operator (who already has 3 on route). First time I've moved a game after having it only one week. Just don't have the patience for half-baked rules/software.
I think it works as route game...for home use, it's just too boring (Munster Madness is way too easy to achieve). I prefer games that challenge me. TRON isn't a particularly deep game, but achieving PORTAL isn't easy.

Can I ask a question.. I'm fascinated as to the thought process that went into buying it....

Was it a case that you were going to buy it come what may because it was the new hotness, and not read any reviews in advance or watch Lets Plays, etc? Your views on the game seem like stuff that would easily have been discovered just by watching someone review it, or an extended play video.

I'm curious to know what it was that you were actually expecting, if not what has been demonstrated clearly in reviews and videos, etc.

#7690 11 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Sure, happy to provide more insight/detail....
I grew up with the Munsters show and thought the artwork was stunning. Those were known.
The "unknown" was gameplay, and I believe that software/rules need to be experienced. Watching others play the game isn't the same.
Because of the license/artwork, I placed my order after the reveal but before much was known about gameplay.
Lastly, I sold my AS Pro (a Borg/fan layout with good, but basic rules) and thought Munsters would be better. For me, AS is more challenging. I had no idea that Munsters was going to be so easy/basic. Don't get me wrong, Stern games over the years have gotten increasing brutal (SW is a great example). Dialing down the difficulty for location play is a good move. Not every release needs to have brutal gameplay/rules!
Unfortunately, it's difficult to make a game that works on location AND the home. I think JJP's Dialed In is a wonderful example that straddles the 2...approachable for a novice, yet deep/interesting for home use.

Thanks. That explains it very well. I agree that sometimes you have to experience something for yourself to know if you will click with it.

#7760 11 months ago

Not acceptable, shouldn't have passed QC. Just because you're "only" buying a Pro it shouldn't mean you end up with a "silver" grade playfield.

If there is a perceptible ridge there then the ball will wear against it.

#7793 10 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I have CPR PF's in my Fathom/Centaur...they do great work. Unfortunately, they take forever. I signed up for a Paragon PF more than 4 years ago and it's still under development (with almost no updates along the way).
Considering how many games Stern produces, they do a great job. Since the # of PF providers is likely very small, it's unclear if there is much competition for this aspect of game. It would be really interesting to know how many PF's Stern rejects. If the % is very low, then they should be more discriminating. If they are already rejecting 5-10% and need the slightly flawed PF's to ship games, it becomes a business decision. Try buying a new home...it will come with many flaws

Maybe I'm being overly critical but how did Bally/Williams manage to churn out decent playfields back in the day?

There is a sense that people are making excuses for Stern here, like painting and clearcoating a playfield and getting it right is some unattainable utopia. If CPR, Mirco and co can do it so can they. Having to produce greater volumes is no excuse in my mind, particularly on a pin costing $6k+

I suspect, like many things, playfield finish quality is a function of cost vs desired profit. If enough people don't stop buying the products then why not keep chipping down the costs part?

#7889 10 months ago

It matters not one jot what corners Stern or any other profit seeking entity cut if their customers carry on buying their products as soon as they become available, sight unseen in many cases.

It's easy to see why - who else is going to produce "theme X" ? Who else is releasing new pins consistently. Stern is pretty much the only game in town for new releases on a regular basis, and until someone else competes on their level or customers stop tolerating being nickle-and-dimed absolutely nothing will change.

Stern is basically in that phase in its lifecycle where they are seeing how far they can push cost cutting (features, mechs, QC) before their bottom line is affected by people actually putting their money where their mouth is instead of talking a big game until the next theme is announced and the cycle repeats.

2 weeks later
#8070 10 months ago

LOTR (14) has 371 ratings, TZ (1) has 718.

The rankings appear to be done on the mean value of the ratings, as it should be really otherwise it would quite easily be gamed. TZ has existed 10 years longer than LOTR, too.

1 week later
#8117 9 months ago

No one cares anymore because there's a new Stern pin on the horizon. Such is the cycle of "ooh shiny".

#8121 9 months ago
Quoted from Jaketime81:

So its been a few weeks, but Stern stepped up and is sending an advanced replacement Play-field, with paid return shipping! after I told my distributor, stern had a lightning quick response! At first they were not sending it in advance, but with a little push back from my distributor, stern stepped up! Shout out to Colorado Game Exchange!
I do have the machine on location at my local sandwich shop, but its the only newer game I own so I definitely want to keep it in perfect playing shape!

What's the deal with replacement playfields from Stern, do they come fully populated or are you expected to strip it yourself or get someone to do it?

1 week later
#8132 9 months ago

Funny how the hype dies out immediately as soon as a new pin is seen. Black Knight, and now Wonka. People (some, not all) just lose their minds and all sense of perspective when it comes to new stuff being announced.

There has been less than one page of "hype" posts for Munsters in the last month... That speaks volumes to people's attention spans in my opinion.

Is hype a damaging thing for new pins, or is it just that it's natural that people want to get excited for the latest, greatest pin and that it's ultimately harmless?

1 month later
#8170 8 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?
The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.
I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?
What else can be done?
Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).
I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.
Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.
I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.
I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.
Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.
Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.
On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.
Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!
Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.
With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.
I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.
Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.
As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

You presumably bought Munsters LE because you wanted it. You were happy (I presume) to pay $9000 at the time. What has changed?

The current market price is only relevant if you're looking to sell it, or if you bought it as an investment, and if you did that, knowing that Stern crank out several games a year, each with their own LE, then it was a bit of a poor purchasing decision really.

You need only look at the fact that the hype for Munsters died overnight as soon as Black Knight was announced, and the hype for that will die when Jaws or whatever is announced. Repeat ad infinitum.

I'd suggest buying the pins whose themes you actually like, rather than getting sucked up in the hype. That way you won't be disappointed.

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