Kinda looks like the Addams topper to me.

Stern releasing TAFr before CGC do. I called it, please contact me to license this post on other websites, thanks.

I don't think I ever saw Munsters mentioned before the rumours started, then suddenly it's the new hotness. Like it might as well have not existed before that happened, it was just that slightly memorable show that was on decades ago that everyone forgot.

Is it fair to say that pretty much anything nostalgic that Stern crank out is going to be eaten up by anyone who just wants a new shiny thing? What next? Xena? The A-Team? LeXX?

If it's just people wanting any new theme in a shiny cabinet then that's one thing, but where has this previously non-existant Munsters fan club come from?

Fair dos. I remember watching it a fair bit but I couldn't tell you anything about any episode I saw. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I never knew it had such a big fanbase.

Just to remind everyone what the superior game (and show) is

The whole Lite thing can be explained quite simply as a popular pinball doing it once upon a time, then everyone copying it from that point onwards. Twas ever thus.

Agreed. Compare this to something like Tron and tell me that you can look at the playfield and can see at a glance where all the inserts are and what shots are likely to involve them..

stern-pfs (resized).jpg

As said though it doesn't seem to matter because people appear to be happy to buy any new Stern pin because it's a) new and b) vaguely nostalgic.

No one's LE has been made yet has it so I don't know how much significance can be placed on those show plaques only showing X of 500...

You could argue that Vault editions mess with LE owners too.

Regardless of how one might feel about people buying pins as investments or with one eye on it, people do, and I think it's poor form to change the number of units you're going to make after you've already taken orders from people.

As you quite rightly point out "trim level 3" might not be enough to sell those units at top money, but "LE" and limited numbers would be. Adding 100 devalues that even if nothing else changes.

I don't think the extra 100 is the issue, it's the timing.

I don't imagine people buying an LE when it was X/500 would not have bought if it had been announced as X/600, or possibly even X/1000. But, crucially, selling something as limited, taking orders and money for it and then going "we could make some more money here, let's add another 100" is disrespectful of the existing LE buyers, and unprofessional.

Also I don't necessarily buy that Stern could sell an unlimited amount of LEs. The reason many people will buy a LE, at the inflated prices, is because it is sold as limited. The investment potential might not be at the forefront of customer's minds, but it would be a factor, and they would certainly be thinking that it ought to retain its value more. A $10,000 pin that pretty much anyone can get because supply exists to meet demand would simply mean that the value would depreciate in line with the non-limited editions. Limited edition as a concept only works as a value proposition when demand outstrips supply, and where the manufacturer understands and accepts that they could sell more but choose not to in order to create exclusivity. As was said earlier by another member - if they sold it as "trim level 3" it wouldn't have the same appeal. People would quite rightly just compare what you actually get for your extra cash over "trim level 2", and it becomes a different value proposition entirely.

Ultimately though the issue is of trust and professionalism I think. If Stern are prepared to change the parameters of LEs after the fact, when the order books are already open, there's no reason to trust that they wouldn't do it again, or even decide to do something else - more impactful - that would impact the value proposition or exclusivity of a LE purchase.

With enough LEs sold to prompt Stern to raise the number to 600 any gripes people have about diminishing build quality or weaker features like target banks vs individual drop targets, etc isn't being reflected in demand.

In my opinion there's no justification for the LE/Prems not having drop targets, but it won't matter or change until such time as the market decides it isn't going to tolerate it.

Your question is pretty reductive, that's why.

If you want an equally reductive answer - why bother buying the pins at all? Just donate the money directly to the American workers and cut out the middle man completely? Problem solved!

The guy answered your question well already. The cost increases and build quality/feature decreases are nothing to do with paying American workers and everything about profit margins.

I can't even begin to imagine the cost of shipping assembled cabinets from anywhere in the World to the States, but I would presume it is by orders of magnitude higher than simply sourcing the wood domestically (a win from a PR point of view too, since the cabinet & playfield are the see, touch & feel parts of the game) owing to the volumetric and actual weight of them. I don't think it would be cost effective to even import playfield blanks from abroad.

"95-97%" is a very generous estimate of stuff sourced in the USA though. If you assume that pretty much everything under the playfield has likely come from China then 95% is a pretty high number. I guess it depends on what you deem a pinball machine to be. If it's the intellectual property, the rules, the software and the touchy feely stuff, then certainly it is American made.

This is from a while ago, but I'm trying to unpack what you're saying here.

You started off saying that it's crazy to buy a LE sight unseen, but then within a couple of sentences you appear to contradict yourself and suggest that people should buy LEs without hesitation because, to paraphrase you, "when was the last time someone lost money on a LE?". Others have quite rightly pointed out examples where LE value is not necessarily a sure thing.

You also say it's crazy for people to buy an LE based on "somebody else's impression of said game", then you go on to wax lyrical about how amazing it is in your opinion...

If you really dig The Munsters then I can see the logic of plumping for an LE sight unseen - it is the best version of a theme you love. Buying it simply because it's the new hotness, or because you are sucked up by the hype, on the other hand, is a risky proposition. It's very easy to get sucked up into hype, and there has been a lot of hype for this game - no one was really talking about The Munsters before the announcement, and now it's as if it was the theme that everyone was waiting for.

What I would say is that one shouldn't buy a Munsters LE thinking that because there is so much hype now that the value is sure to go up and up. Everyone is talking about it now because it's the latest thing that Stern have done, and people like hyping new shiny things. If/when they announce Jaws, or Elvira, or Xena the Warrior Princess, or Buffy, or The Punisher, or whatever this thread will tail off and suddenly that new pin will be the best thing since sliced bread.

Are we being a bit generous in assuming that the price differential between a single target bank and drop targets is so big that it would make the pin uneconomical? It's not as if the pins have got any cheaper to buy.

Stern needs competition. Right now they're pretty much the only game in town in terms of consistent releases. JJP have made 4 pins total and Stern have cranked out at least 7 in the past couple of years.

A near monopolistic position combined with a consumer base who will just throw money at new releases uncritically is not a great combo, at least as far as consumer focus is concerned.

Addams Family, please

I would suspect that side by side Munsters would make Addams look very old. But then it is very old, but is still super captivating to players new and old alike. There's lessons in there to learn I suspect.

I wonder if Stern had one eye on TAF in terms of coming up with a rule set for Munsters. TAF isn't remotely deep but makes money hand over fist.

Is it possible that there is pressure to come up with layouts like this because they're safe?

Coming up with something off the wall might be alright if you're Pat Lawlor and JJP basically tells you to go nuts, but maybe not when you're working for Stern?

I dunno, just throwing ideas out there. I don't know any designer who wants to churn out samey, predictable work - unless they are disillusioned with what they're doing or (more likely) getting pressure externally on BOM, time, or whatever.

Problem is if you like Munsters then where else are you going to buy a Munsters pinball machine from?

Given the hype there was about Munsters in the first place, when previously there didn't appear to be any real mention of it or people clamouring for it, there appears to be a number of customers who just want to buy the latest, greatest NIB pin and will sing the praises of whatever that theme happens to be.

In that respect there is a captive audience with pinballs to a certain extent. What Stern needs really is serious competition in the "crank several new pins out every year" space. When they start to feel like their customers might not be as locked in as they think they are that's when you're likely to see margins being dialed back and BOM increases, not before, and certainly not because a bunch of people moan about it but still buy their stuff.

Get a Pro instead? Then if you don't like it sell it. Don't understand the logic of buying an LE when you're on the fence about whether to buy it at all.

The absurdity of spending money on replacement legs, etc on day 1 of buying a NIB pin. What a time to be alive.

Can I ask a question.. I'm fascinated as to the thought process that went into buying it....

Was it a case that you were going to buy it come what may because it was the new hotness, and not read any reviews in advance or watch Lets Plays, etc? Your views on the game seem like stuff that would easily have been discovered just by watching someone review it, or an extended play video.

I'm curious to know what it was that you were actually expecting, if not what has been demonstrated clearly in reviews and videos, etc.

Thanks. That explains it very well. I agree that sometimes you have to experience something for yourself to know if you will click with it.

Not acceptable, shouldn't have passed QC. Just because you're "only" buying a Pro it shouldn't mean you end up with a "silver" grade playfield.

If there is a perceptible ridge there then the ball will wear against it.

Maybe I'm being overly critical but how did Bally/Williams manage to churn out decent playfields back in the day?

There is a sense that people are making excuses for Stern here, like painting and clearcoating a playfield and getting it right is some unattainable utopia. If CPR, Mirco and co can do it so can they. Having to produce greater volumes is no excuse in my mind, particularly on a pin costing $6k+

I suspect, like many things, playfield finish quality is a function of cost vs desired profit. If enough people don't stop buying the products then why not keep chipping down the costs part?

It matters not one jot what corners Stern or any other profit seeking entity cut if their customers carry on buying their products as soon as they become available, sight unseen in many cases.

It's easy to see why - who else is going to produce "theme X" ? Who else is releasing new pins consistently. Stern is pretty much the only game in town for new releases on a regular basis, and until someone else competes on their level or customers stop tolerating being nickle-and-dimed absolutely nothing will change.

Stern is basically in that phase in its lifecycle where they are seeing how far they can push cost cutting (features, mechs, QC) before their bottom line is affected by people actually putting their money where their mouth is instead of talking a big game until the next theme is announced and the cycle repeats.

LOTR (14) has 371 ratings, TZ (1) has 718.

The rankings appear to be done on the mean value of the ratings, as it should be really otherwise it would quite easily be gamed. TZ has existed 10 years longer than LOTR, too.

No one cares anymore because there's a new Stern pin on the horizon. Such is the cycle of "ooh shiny".

What's the deal with replacement playfields from Stern, do they come fully populated or are you expected to strip it yourself or get someone to do it?

Funny how the hype dies out immediately as soon as a new pin is seen. Black Knight, and now Wonka. People (some, not all) just lose their minds and all sense of perspective when it comes to new stuff being announced.

There has been less than one page of "hype" posts for Munsters in the last month... That speaks volumes to people's attention spans in my opinion.

Is hype a damaging thing for new pins, or is it just that it's natural that people want to get excited for the latest, greatest pin and that it's ultimately harmless?

You presumably bought Munsters LE because you wanted it. You were happy (I presume) to pay $9000 at the time. What has changed?

The current market price is only relevant if you're looking to sell it, or if you bought it as an investment, and if you did that, knowing that Stern crank out several games a year, each with their own LE, then it was a bit of a poor purchasing decision really.

You need only look at the fact that the hype for Munsters died overnight as soon as Black Knight was announced, and the hype for that will die when Jaws or whatever is announced. Repeat ad infinitum.

I'd suggest buying the pins whose themes you actually like, rather than getting sucked up in the hype. That way you won't be disappointed.