(Topic ID: 217394)

The Munsters Hype (Because every evening its Halloween)


By Macca101010

1 year ago



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#8151 39 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

And yet you trash the Elvira design before you even see it to

Where the hell did i trash Elvira's design, care to point that out to me? I am a Stern fanboy, you are 100% right about that, and thats because they make great games. I am a fanboy of any pinball thats good.

Dude all i can tell you is, that you are missing out on a great f*cking game especially if you like this theme. I asked you once and you never responded, when you played Munsters at the shows or wherever you played it, did you have a decent understanding of the rules or were you just flipping? If you think getting to Munster Bash is the pinnacle of this game then you are way wrong.

#8152 39 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

Much of the handwringing on Munsters is not coming from Stern haters but from Munsters fans that really wanted the game to be a success but are concerned that the code is too dumbed down for a modern game. Fun layout (except for the stupid monotargets and lack of drop targets), fantastic ramps and good/great art packages.
And yet you trash the Elvira design before you even see it to make Munsters look better? Come on. You have fanboy blinders on and that is just as bad as those that hate for the sake of hating. Bullshit is bad whether it’s positive or negative.
Like you, I don’t worry about the resale value of my games because I’m a buy and hold type. But resale concerns me as part of the overall market and as an indicator of how well a particular title is received because that will determine what level of resource Stern will put into a game post-release. That’s especially important to me for games I want (like Munsters). Yes, I’m sure there will be some that buy both Munsters and Elvira. But more will have to choose one or the other because of money and/or space.
For me, it should have been easy because I like the Munsters theme a lot more than Elvira. I’m upset not because of what Munsters is today but that it almost certainly will not become what it could have/should have been. And Stern has telegraphed pretty clearly that what we see now is pretty much it which means a Munsters Premium in my game room has gone from a certain lock to less than a 50/50 proposition.

No new pins in today’s flooded markets is going to hold value.

All pins will drop $500 or more unless it is something rare or unuptanable.

#8153 39 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Where the hell did i trash Elvira's design, care to point that out to me? I am a Stern fanboy, you are 100% right about that, and thats because they make great games. I am a fanboy of any pinball thats good.
Dude all i can tell you is, that you are missing out on a great f*cking game especially if you like this theme. I asked you once and you never responded, when you played Munsters at the shows or wherever you played it, did you have a decent understanding of the rules or were you just flipping? If you think getting to Munster Bash is the pinnacle of this game then you are way wrong.

Read the first line of your post I responded to which clearly inferred that the Elvira design won’t be as good as Munsters even if the code is.

I’m pretty sure I did respond to your other question elsewhere. I have played both Munsters Pro and Premium multiple times (easily over 100 games) in multiple venues with both early and current code. Did I have a decent understanding of the rules the first time I played? No. But I learned them quickly and discovered that, with a few exceptions, Munsters is essentially a one-trick-maximize-the-jackpots-pony. That’s not enough for me to own an $8k game no matter how much I like the theme. If that’s enough for you, great. I hope you enjoy the game for years.

#8154 39 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

Read the first line of your post I responded to which clearly inferred that the Elvira design won’t be as good as Munsters even if the code is.
I’m pretty sure I did respond to your other question elsewhere. I have played both Munsters Pro and Premium multiple times (easily over 100 games) in multiple venues with both early and current code. Did I have a decent understanding of the rules the first time I played? No. But I learned them quickly and discovered that, with a few exceptions, Munsters is essentially a one-trick-maximize-the-jackpots-pony. That’s not enough for me to own an $8k game no matter how much I like the theme. If that’s enough for you, great. I hope you enjoy the game for years.

I said there is certainly no guarantee that Elvira will be as good as Munsters. That means maybe it will be and maybe it won't be. A John Borg design is pretty hard to beat in my opinion, the guy makes awesome games.

I like chasing the Jackpots, its fun. Its not really a one trick pony though because you do still have modes to complete although granted they are not too difficult, but then theres the lower playfield that is fun also in the Premium and LE.

I just wanted to make sure you understand the code and if thats not enough for you to buy then thats fine, i get it. Just remembet though that no code usually is great fresh off the assembly line and Munsters has only been out for 2-3 months. The foundation of the code is definitely there and wont change a lot maybe but i wouldn't neccessarily say that the code wont get better just yet either. Just one or two little add ons could make all the difference in the world for you.

#8155 38 days ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Just remember though that no code usually is great fresh off the assembly line and Munsters has only been out for 2-3 months. The foundation of the code is definitely there and wont change a lot maybe but i wouldn't neccessarily say that the code wont get better just yet either.

What you seem to be forgetting is that unlike many other games just off the line where the code was just the foundation, Dwight has made it very clear that the Munsters code is essentially done. If that changes, I’m sure many will reconsider the game. ST and BM66 are great examples of games whose sales improved as a direct result of code improvements. But if Stern doesn’t believe they will get enough of a sales boost by improving the code they won’t spend the money to do so.

Stern dumbed down Borg’s design by removing the drop targets, the very cool Grandpa’s trap door and an unspecified mech in the back of the game so we already know John planned for Munsters to be better. If buyers keep settling for “good enough” why should Stern change? It’s too late for the hardware. Maybe they have met their forecasted sales targets and don’t care. But if all Stern hears is “Munsters is the greatest game ever” there’s no need for them to beef up the code. There is absolutely no reason why Munsters can’t be more approachable for casual players as Dwight wanted (as it is) and be deeper for better players or home buyers.

Not every game Stern makes is great. Some are. Munsters should have been great. It still can be and I’m hoping that it will. But I’m realistic enough to know that’s more unlikely than not. And with the number of games for sale so soon in the lifecycle it looks like others agree. Every secondary market sale is one less potential sale for a distributor and one less game off the assembly line which doesn’t do anything for Stern.

#8156 38 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

But if Stern doesn’t believe they will get enough of a sales boost by improving the code they won’t spend the money to do so.

How do you know this to be true?

#8157 38 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

If buyers keep settling for “good enough” why should Stern change? It’s too late for the hardware. Maybe they have met their forecasted sales targets and don’t care. But if all Stern hears is “Munsters is the greatest game ever” there’s no need for them to beef up the code. There is absolutely no reason why Munsters can’t be more approachable for casual players as Dwight wanted (as it is) and be deeper for better players or home buyers.
Not every game Stern makes is great. Some are. Munsters should have been great. It still can be and I’m hoping that it will. But I’m realistic enough to know that’s more unlikely than not. And with the number of games for sale so soon in the lifecycle it looks like others agree. Every secondary market sale is one less potential sale for a distributor and one less game off the assembly line which doesn’t do anything for Stern.

Couldn't agree more. I have no problem with simpler rule sets...I just want them to be fun, challenging, & rewarding. The Beatles is a simpler, 80's inspired game and I love it. Does it compete with Stern classics like LOTR, TRON, or AC/DC? Probably not...but it's faithful to the 80's design point with some nice modern touches.

For me, Munsters is just mediocre (and I'm a Borg fan). The Herman toy (clang, clang)...the massive/ugly Dragula target...the clunky shooter lane (which I realize could be dialed-in, but mine wasn't). The game shoots nice enough, but it lacks challenging shots. I think it's a game that makes sense for arcades, but isn't inspiring for home use. It was painful, but I sold mine for under 5k because I knew the game isn't for me.

#8158 38 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

How do you know this to be true?

I don’t. Only a few people in Stern know the actual figures, but it’s a pretty safe assumption.

There is a concept in business known as ROI (return on investment). Most successful businesses don’t make an investment unless the investment is expected to return more than what would have otherwise been expected. In the case of software that return could be measured in incremental unit sales (Munsters games) or customer goodwill (buyers have faith that Stern will improve the code and are willing to gamble on being an early adopter).

Look at Batman 66 - perfect example of both. Stern said at the outset that Lyman would be allowed to complete the code to his vision. As it became clear that was happening, Premium demand increased and multiple additional runs of the game resulted. Early buyers of the game - most of whom spent more money on a Stern game than ever before - had their faith in Stern renewed/increased because the company fostered goodwill by keeping that promise. Win-Win.

If Stern is happy with sales to date and projected sales meet expectations then the only reason to change course on the software plan would be to improve goodwill and that still involve some sort of ROI decision.

#8159 38 days ago

All the back-and-forth above is true in part, but Who-Dey has a premium, not a pro. The talk I mentioned was about pros getting liquidated quickly all of a sudden. The fun level for me on the pro was very low, especially when you know there are other models with other options and increased functionality.

However, attention spans will shift quickly these days with Stern pumping out several games a year. The hype used to last much longer when they were only releasing one game a year.

Let’s not fool ourselves. Stern is certainly about making money these days, not pumping out the best games possible. That is actually an impossibility when you are releasing multiple titles per year.

Some people forget...

5EF43185-EF71-45A0-A5FC-08EE1C4BB4D9 (resized).jpeg
#8160 38 days ago
Quoted from Colsond3:

attention spans will shift quickly these days with Stern pumping out several games a year. The hype used to last much longer when they were only releasing one game a year.
Let’s not fool ourselves. Stern is certainly about making money these days, not pumping out the best games possible. That is actually an impossibility when you are releasing multiple titles per year.

I agree 100%. I’ve long given up on ‘best games possible’. I expect Stern to have some so-so games, some good games and some great games. I’m just disappointed Munsters isn’t likely to end up in the latter category.

We should all be grateful to the cash infusions to both Stern and JJP that allowed both to stay relevant in pinball.

1 week later
#8161 30 days ago
Quoted from Colsond3:

Let’s not fool ourselves. Stern is certainly about making money these days, not pumping out the best games possible. That is actually an impossibility when you are releasing multiple titles per year.
Some people forget...
[quoted image]

How much equity did Stern have to cough up to get the cash in 2008? Anyone know?

#8162 27 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

How much equity did Stern have to cough up to get the cash in 2008? Anyone know?

If you un-ignore me, get over the Batman thing, and be nice, I’ll tell you.

2 weeks later
#8163 8 days ago

Code 1.0 :

PRO V1.00 - May 29, 2019
========================
Fixed:
- The HOW-TO attract videos will now not play if turned off from the standard
adjustments.
- Fixed some speech timings.
- Fixed Munster Madness level II timer issues.

New:
- Added Topper lamp effects
- Added Team Credits ESaster egg: 1 2 3. To see it you Hold in Both flippers,
then you enter numbers with the left flipper and enter on with the right.
Finally, when you are done you have to enter one last time with the right
flipper. So 1 2 3 would be B LR LLR LLLR R
- Added Topper clock effect to Raven Multiball Jackpots

Tweaked:
- Changed the Marilyn award to LIGHT MARILYN SUPER JACKPOT and START SUPER
POPS at 2 and then every 2 thereafter.
- Added a guaranteed ball save time to Raven Multiball.
- Pressing the top button to start a game when there are no credits will no
longer make a sound as the button is released.
- Starting a game with zero credits will now only make a sound 3 times before
the game will wait an hour before it will make sounds again.

Moved to SYS 2.27:
- Updated to nodeboard firmware v0.40.0
- Updated instructions for RESTORE SETTINGS.
- Reordered items in UTIL->VOL, moved CABINET SPEAKER TYPE to be after BACKBOX
SPEAKER TYPE.
- Added UTIL->RESET->VOL which will reset all audio settings to their default
values.

#8164 8 days ago

I imagine this news will bring mixed responses...

MunP (resized).jpg
-12
#8165 8 days ago

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?

The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.

I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?

What else can be done?

Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).

I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.

Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.

I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.

I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.

Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.

Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.

On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.

Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!

Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.

With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.

I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.

Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.

As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

-8
#8166 8 days ago
Quoted from Medisinyl:

I imagine this news will bring mixed responses...

They shouldn't have done the black n white to begin with. Lack of sales is driving force here I promise you!

#8167 8 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?
The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.
I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?
What else can be done?
Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).
I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.
Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.
I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.
I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.
Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.
Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.
On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.
Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!
Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.
With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.
I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.
Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.
As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

That's a lot of words.

#8168 8 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?
The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.
I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?
What else can be done?
Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).
I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.
Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.
I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.
I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.
Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.
Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.
On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.
Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!
Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.
With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.
I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.
Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.
As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

Quoted from drfrightner:

They shouldn't have done the black n white to begin with. Lack of sales is driving force here I promise you!

I personally like the appearance of the Black and White. Upon initial leak of the game a ways back, I thought it may be the first game I'd consider an LE on (love the theme and the early leaked LE art package looked the nicest to me), but I waited until TPF to play it several times and just couldn't find a reason to add it to my collection.

If I were an LE buyer, I wouldn't at all be happy about the Premium getting the color treatment--it was one of the reasons to buy the LE over the premium, and I imagine it could only hurt LE value...as well as customer trust on future titles.

#8169 8 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?

Links or it didn't happen.

#8170 8 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?
The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.
I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?
What else can be done?
Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).
I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.
Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.
I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.
I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.
Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.
Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.
On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.
Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!
Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.
With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.
I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.
Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.
As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

You presumably bought Munsters LE because you wanted it. You were happy (I presume) to pay $9000 at the time. What has changed?

The current market price is only relevant if you're looking to sell it, or if you bought it as an investment, and if you did that, knowing that Stern crank out several games a year, each with their own LE, then it was a bit of a poor purchasing decision really.

You need only look at the fact that the hype for Munsters died overnight as soon as Black Knight was announced, and the hype for that will die when Jaws or whatever is announced. Repeat ad infinitum.

I'd suggest buying the pins whose themes you actually like, rather than getting sucked up in the hype. That way you won't be disappointed.

#8171 8 days ago
Quoted from Durzel:

I'd suggest buying the pins whose themes you actually like, rather than getting sucked up in the hype. That way you won't be disappointed.

Buy pins whose themes you like AND code you can be happy with.

I *love* almost everything about the Munsters game. Except the code. I’m disappointed I don’t own one. But I would have been *pissed* if I hadn’t cancelled my LE order when I did and feel badly for those let down by Stern (especially those who got an LE only because there wasn’t a color Premium option)

-8
#8172 8 days ago
Quoted from RobT:Links or it didn't happen.

I'm not providing links it happened. I have a friend who wanted Munsters LE he told me flat out he bought it for $6500 in Denver. I saw a Munsters pro here in St Louis area on facebook for sale $4600.00 Why do you think this didn't happen ... dumbest post I've ever seen. You're just calling people a liar when what I said is what so far fetched that it can't be believed. Please.

Quoted from Medisinyl:

If I were an LE buyer, I wouldn't at all be happy about the Premium getting the color treatment

I agree so now what is the difference? The art or the backglass being real glass oh I know getting an autograph from Gary Stern LOL. You're totally correct!

Quoted from Durzel:

You presumably bought Munsters LE because you wanted it. You were happy (I presume) to pay $9000 at the time. What has changed?

You're correct I'm in the haunted house business, and I wanted to add it to my line up of horror themed games. With that being said I have also sold some horror themed titles, I just don't buy them and hold onto them just because... the game isn't that fun. I said it day one and I'll say it again. Secondly there is nothing really original here its a game we've seen and played before. But what I'm unhappy about is paying $9000 and now knowing if I wanted to sell the game I'd take a 2500 bath. I think the moral of my opinion really is this...

Don't get caught up in the BUY THE LE ASAP sight unseen otherwise you wont' get one because some other sucker will buy it hate it, get bored of it whatever and sell at a drastic loss. These pinball games end of the day are NOT worth $9000 none of them are especially Stern games. So why pay it... wait have some patience and buy later. I wish I had done that for Munsters.

When you have say Wizard of Oz those sell for basically what you paid, Batman 66 is selling for basically what you paid, Pirates LE are selling for more than people paid... that is the perfect world right? But to sell for 25% loss 3 months after purchase that is tough!

Stern needs to stop thinking every game should be priced like a JJP, or that ever game deserves an LE which for them is a money grab.

I'm not being suckered again by Stern.

#8173 8 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I'm not providing links it happened. I have a friend who wanted Munsters LE he told me flat out he bought it for $6500 in Denver. I saw a Munsters pro here in St Louis area on facebook for sale $4600.00 Why do you think this didn't happen ... dumbest post I've ever seen. You're just calling people a liar when what I said is what so far fetched that it can't be believed. Please.

You are right. It is believable and reasonable. You would be lucky to get $6k for your Munsters LE. Your friend overpaid.

#8174 8 days ago

1 machine selling for $6500 does not set the market - come on now.

With that said almost every LE falls to around $7k in 3 years.

That’s the market lately - Munsters LE will be no different. Nothing uniquely different here.

#8175 8 days ago
Quoted from Bundy:

That's a lot of words.

No, thats a lot of BULLSHIT is what it is.

#8176 7 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?
The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.
I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?
What else can be done?
Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).
I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.
Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.
I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.
I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.
Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.
Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.
On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.
Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!
Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.
With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.
I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.
Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.
As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

Is there anything you like about pinball? Maybe it’s just not for you.

#8177 7 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I'm not providing links it happened. I have a friend who wanted Munsters LE he told me flat out he bought it for $6500 in Denver. I saw a Munsters pro here in St Louis area on facebook for sale $4600.00 Why do you think this didn't happen ... dumbest post I've ever seen. You're just calling people a liar when what I said is what so far fetched that it can't be believed. Please.

I agree so now what is the difference? The art or the backglass being real glass oh I know getting an autograph from Gary Stern LOL. You're totally correct!

You're correct I'm in the haunted house business, and I wanted to add it to my line up of horror themed games. With that being said I have also sold some horror themed titles, I just don't buy them and hold onto them just because... the game isn't that fun. I said it day one and I'll say it again. Secondly there is nothing really original here its a game we've seen and played before. But what I'm unhappy about is paying $9000 and now knowing if I wanted to sell the game I'd take a 2500 bath. I think the moral of my opinion really is this...
Don't get caught up in the BUY THE LE ASAP sight unseen otherwise you wont' get one because some other sucker will buy it hate it, get bored of it whatever and sell at a drastic loss. These pinball games end of the day are NOT worth $9000 none of them are especially Stern games. So why pay it... wait have some patience and buy later. I wish I had done that for Munsters.
When you have say Wizard of Oz those sell for basically what you paid, Batman 66 is selling for basically what you paid, Pirates LE are selling for more than people paid... that is the perfect world right? But to sell for 25% loss 3 months after purchase that is tough!
Stern needs to stop thinking every game should be priced like a JJP, or that ever game deserves an LE which for them is a money grab.
I'm not being suckered again by Stern.

If you squint both eyes really good this one looks like 6500

#8178 7 days ago

$6500 Le ? Someone is so full of shit!!! lol

#8179 7 days ago
Quoted from Puffdanny:

$6500 Le ? Someone is so full of shit!!! lol

Could have miss spoke...lol

#8180 7 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

I hate to say this but I got trashed on this forum for bringing up many of these points. I also got trashed for shedding a reality on Black Knight. I have a friend who just bought a Munsters LE for $6500.00 with only like 50 plays. People hate this game that much they're willing to lose that kind of money? I think most people bought Munsters LE sight unseen... they just knew they wanted that theme. I bought a Munsters LE sight unseen... so is it really only worth $6500 now? I see people here locally already trying to dump their Munsters Pro for only $4600... I'm like already?
The same will happen with Black Knight another very basic nothing new game but I see those LE being sold for even less than $6500.00. Beatles price was super low at MGC, brand new in the box. I guess they're learning outside of a handful of people where money is no object not many people want to pay $8000 for a $5000 game. There is nothing that original about Munsters, Black Knight and for god sakes Beatles is a direct copy of a 30 year old game.
I think what has happened, and this is just an observation there isn't much left you can do with a pinball game, before you play it and go "OH WAIT ISN'T THIS REALLY A RETREAD of another game'?
What else can be done?
Stern is the worst honestly, the only time you really see good on screen assets is when they're hand delivered on a silver platter (Iron Maiden, Batman 66).
I think pinball will need to take a new direction, and start to incorporate new idea's, and stop relying on people who've already designed 30 games. They need new eyeballs, new idea's, just a younger group of people to create pinball 5.0 or whatever you want to call it. Pinball needs to bring back video modes, introduce wifi, online gaming, and most importantly new features during game play that haven't yet been done.
Stern has become such a well oiled machine they're not even trying to think outside the box. Why should they really? If no other company puts the screws to them and people keep buying games SIGHT UNSEEN, only after the fact they don't find the game that much fun... STERN keeps winning.
I thought it was odd that Stern made this behind the scenes video of Munsters creation, that made me think oh wait this game isn't selling so lets drum up some interest. Nice video btw.
I think Stern should seriously consider making only 2 to 3 new games a year, put more RD into the games, look for new designers, put more work into the games, consider doing a wide body, adding new features... in other words slow down the process and work harder to make things seem original.
Just because you change the artwork on the playfield doesn't mean Beatles isn't Seawitch or Batman Dark Knight is Batman 66, or Munsters seems just like 2 or 3 other games we already have in our collection. Lastly, and to my main point, almost every Stern game releases where they must update the code in some cases 20 times. Jersey Jack comes out with code from the box that no one can even beat... why not just slow down here, take the time to release the game DONE the first time, rather than a process of seeing just how fast you can release a new game.
Just my observation. As buyers I think we need to stop getting suckered on LE games, and just have some patience to decide do we actually think the game is worth $9000.00. I think in most cases if you use patiences you'll realize later that if you really want the very weak Black Knight LE, you'll get one for about $6500 or less in about oh I don't know 4 months. Its worth waiting to save the money. The totally nothing original very basic Black Knight doesn't even deserve an LE if you ask me. That game should be Sterns $4500 line a price point they don't have currently but should consider.
On the flip side, if you're still waiting to buy a Pirates from JJP, well keep waiting because no one is selling. Pirates despite its flaws took at least two years to make, and those games in some cases are selling for MORE than they paid, while Munsters LE just sold for a $2500 loss.
Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!
Again just my opinion. In the future I'm not buying anymore Stern games, unless I see them and play them first because Munsters at 9k don't love it, and now knowing its only worth $6500 three months after buying is not making me feel all warm inside.
With these types of nose dives on values of games so shortly after buying them, will change the market drastically for the games.
I'm not in LOVE with Wonka, I don't think its nearly as creative as WOZ, but at the same time name 5 pinball games ever created with as much cool things happening? There just isn't 5 games you can name with more cool things happening under the glass... oh wait you kind of can the four other games made by JJP, or just a small handful of older Williams Bally games. I'm not saying JJP is better than Stern, merely pointing out that when people buy an LE from JJP they don't rush out to flip it 3 months later. If you're going to sell a 9k version an amount of money, that can buy a BRAND NEW car, then you should be totally sold on buying that game to keep it.
Maybe Stern feels adding new features, doing something they haven't done before creates risks, but I'm okay with that take the risks and do something spectacular. Just my opinion.
As for my Munsters game, I will keep the game because selling it for $2500 loss is not an option. Just in the future I will not rush to buy an LE because of the theme, I will wait play the game, or maybe just wait for another person to take that plunge only to hit the bottom of the pool after a few weeks of ownership and buy then. Maybe.

You make some interesting points, but when I read that "Beatles is Seawitch", it became clear that some of your thinking is pretty superficial. TRON layout has glaring similarities with Funhouse, but plays nothing like it (and is one of Stern's best). Same for Beatles...plays nothing like Seawitch.

Borrowing from the past isn't necessarily bad. Steve Jobs admired Picasso's "Good artists copy; Great artists steal" quote. Lots of "art" pays homage to the past. Since Stern made a bold decision for Beatles to be "retro", they decided to pay homage to Seawitch. The theme integration, audio, callouts, rules and other PF additions have little to do with Seawitch.

Your comment that "Stern should SLOW DOWN get it right out of the box!" is spot-on.

#8181 4 days ago

I put the new code and a shaker motor in my pro and it plays great now. It's a keeper I love it.

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