(Topic ID: 217394)

The Munsters Hype (Because every evening its Halloween)


By Macca101010

1 year ago



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#7901 8 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

oh if everything in the world were just linear...

Well, Stern price increases are...like clockwork. And that's the only world we're discussing here.

#7902 8 months ago

Quoted from vireland:

You're twisting it as well. If we're only doing the top veneer, Stern only has to do half what CPR is doing (and I'm sure Stern gets a much better deal from the mill with their volume) to get the same hardness, so the cost per blank could be CPR quality at Stern for less than $30/blank. For an LE that costs $9,000 retail or an SLE that cost $15,000 DIRECT to Stern (they got all of it with no middleman), it's not too much to ask.

Why don't you start your own pinball company dude. Maybe you can do it F ing better. All you do is bitch and complain about this or that!

You route games for your boss and he keeps buying Stern pins

#7903 8 months ago

I have read CPRs post (good post), but there is a lot of cherry picking of that information in this thread.

For decades most of the better playfield wood came from North American Plywood near Chicago. It used sweet gum as its filler cores and .040" face veneers. But in 2008 in the downturn they liquidated their custom plywood mill and everyone was scrambling to find wood, even Stern

Playfields before 2008 had a 0.040 veneer.

Their standard wood for Stern is a good one side panel with 3 layers of white ash and a 0.048" face veneers

Stern playfields since 2008 now have a 0.048 veneer, which is thicker. Not sure how anyone can arrive at the conclusion that playfields dimple more now because of the veneer.

We use the same basic setup as Stern, 3 layers of white ash cores then we use 4 layers of maritime hard maple BUT we increased the thickness of the two face veneers by 64% to get a nominal face thickness of 0.075". These huge and thick ONE piece veneers are crazy expensive and we always get this top grade veneer on BOTH sides of your PF. This alone added $12 to the cost of each panel vs just using a second grade veneer on the bottom like Stern does. There's nothing wrong with the way Stern does it, as they just refuse any board they want and since they are so close to the mill, the mill just picks it up with the next load and credits them

So CPR has a better quality of veneer on the bottom (nice, but nothing to do with dimpling), and CPR themselves say nothing wrong with the way Stern does it, and they do it differently because they cannot reject bad playfields as easily as Stern can.

We pay a lot extra to get the very best wood they can produce right off the start. You get a much nicer product and a much denser and tougher PF. This wood is 25% heavier for the same size panel as our old wood and nearly a third heavier as Baltic Birch which some other playfield manufacturers use. I would love to use cheaper wood like some others do, after all why would I pay $12.50/sqft landed when I can get birch at less than $2.00sqft? We use the best densest hardest custom wood we can get because we think its worth it and we always try to make the very best product we can.

Here CPR is saying they get a denser/tougher playfield. However they don't say that it is denser/tougher than Stern, just better than cheap birch. Stern isn't using cheap birch, so not sure what you can draw from that. They also don't say that their veneer is a different wood than Stern's, just that it is thicker. So, two actually relevant questions:

1) Is CPR using a better quality wood top veneer than Stern?

2) If not, does a 0.027 of an inch difference in a veneer make a big difference with dimpling? Thickness does not equal density. You can have a 20 foot thick marshmallow, it is still a marshmallow. A steel ball dropping on the surface is still going to sink. Not a physics guy though.

Not sure if this makes me a Stern fanboy/shill (don't care if it does).

#7904 8 months ago

I have owned every stern produced since 2001, along with many others . It’s sad that they choose not to spend ( with
their buying power) $75 per pin to claim a great quality product. This is a conversation I have had several years ago
with them. Greed has taken the place of pride in what you produce. Sad.

#7905 8 months ago

Time is past due for a more ORGANIC playfield. One that can heal itself and self-fill imperfections while it rests during its daily, planned eight hour outage for beauty. Never worry again ... pinball gods’ playfields always look perfect after a night of rest. Just like you ... and poof its back to reality

#7906 8 months ago
Quoted from Banker:

I have owned every stern produced since 2001, along with many others . It’s sad that they choose not to spend ( with
their buying power) $75 per pin to claim a great quality product. This is a conversation I have had several years ago
with them. Greed has taken the place of pride in what you produce. Sad.

I don't think that is fair. Seen many interviews with the Stern folks and they all seem to take pride in what they do and their product.

Also not sure what you are basing the $75 number per pin on and what you have itemized as quality improvements they could make at $75 a pin that would make much of a difference, but in any case, $75 a pin over 5000 pins (assuming 5k pins a year, wild ass guess) is $375000 dollars. If that doesn't seem like a lot of cash to you then you live in a different world than I do.

At the end of the day they still produce pins that go on location, get played thousands of times, make money for their operators, and after the fact the operator can sell the machine for 1/2 to 2/3 of what they paid for it. Damn those evil bastards.

#7907 8 months ago
Quoted from Banker:

I have owned every stern produced since 2001, along with many others . It’s sad that they choose not to spend ( with
their buying power) $75 per pin to claim a great quality product. This is a conversation I have had several years ago
with them. Greed has taken the place of pride in what you produce. Sad.

Why is it sad Banker? You of all people should understand profit versus loss. Look at JJP floundering in red ink. Hopefully they turn it around with some blockbusters.

$12 x 12,000 PF's is $144,000.

Is the Stern LE train pulling into the station? Sure it is. Maybe they see it, maybe they don't. But they KNOW their business and they will have to adjust to market trends.

If too many people think they are getting shafted by the LE's and sales go down, they have to change.

A PF that has a few more dimples. WTF, "COME ON MAN!"

#7908 8 months ago

Wait for the CPR remake PFs then swap that dimply ass out.. maybe by then it will be "smoothed out" tho I only can tell when the game is off.

#7909 8 months ago
Quoted from drained:

Wait for the CPR remake PFs then swap that dimply ass out.. maybe by then it will be "smoothed out" I only can tell when the game is off tho.

Exactly, quit the crybaby whining. You CAN'T wear out a PF in HUO! If you can, CPR it. Done.

18
#7910 8 months ago

Good gracious.... does anyone ever play and enjoy pinball or just look for reasons to bitch. If you don't like it ..don't buy it. Should be happy new pins are still being produced. I'm going to play my munsters now and have fun after a long day

#7911 8 months ago

I know this isn’t true,but it just FEELS like a couple folks jaw wagging about stern have a huge axe to grind
Like,it feels like you got fired from there or got snubbed at a party once or something
Like start another page called “I know why stern sucks and I can prove it “

I had a issue with my game and got help on it the same day from someone higher up then was necessary which was really nice and I didn’t expect anything so score one for them
Just saying

#7912 8 months ago

This game is off the fucking chain fun bottom line

#7913 8 months ago

I got an email from my distro saying game will be there in 5 days.....then saw this thread blew up............so excitedly opened it hoping to see a bunch of unboxings................instead I see Dimplegate v78.4

10
#7914 8 months ago

"illigetimi non carborundum"

I live by that motto!

"Don't let the bastards wear you down". Timeless

#7915 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Why don't you start your own pinball company dude. Maybe you can do it F ing better. All you do is bitch and complain about this or that!
You route games for your boss and he keeps buying Stern pins

If I could give you two up votes I would.

#7916 8 months ago

Is there any evidence that a thicker veneer is harder?

Why are people taking the word of a company that basically used the $12 saving crap to deflect anger away from themselves? Remember: the thread that info came out of was about CPR's "meaningless pre-orders". Now people are grabbing the torches and quoting speculative info from a company far less professional and supportive than Stern.

Quoted from Wotto:

Dimples.
Who really gives a rats about it.
Buy a game.
Play the game
Enjoy the game.

Seriously

EDIT: Missed the last few posts when I typed this, at least some others are on the same page

#7917 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

"illigetimi non carborundum"
I live by that motto!
"Don't let the bastards wear you down". Timeless

I'm going to use this for work...........good game.....thanks!

#7918 8 months ago

You just selectively missed my bit where I mentioned that any of us could get hit by a bus tomorrow, meaning we all need to lighten up and enjoy what we have today.

So yes, seriously
Enjoy your games

-2
#7919 8 months ago
Quoted from Colsond3:

So people shelling out only 5 or 6K for a game should get a shitty product? I don’t think I like or agree with that rationale. All of their playfields should be better quality, no matter what model it is.

Hmm...it's precisely the product you are currently buying!

-2
#7920 8 months ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Is there any evidence that a thicker veneer is harder?

Damn, there's a serious amount of delusion around here.

From the SAME PARAGRAPH:

"You get a much nicer product and a much denser and tougher PF."

Denser is harder. What? You doubt this is what he meant? Well, then read on...

"We use the best densest hardest custom wood we can get..."

Densest. Hardest. Right next to each other in their own words. Satisfied?

Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Why are people taking the word of a company that basically used the $12 saving crap to deflect anger away from themselves?

Because NO ONE is saying that CPR puts out an inferior playfield product that craters even the same as a current Stern, let alone worse. No one - because CPR has earned a reputation for playfields that are about legacy hardness and have improved durability compared to the 80's SS originals and similar durability to the original 90's DMD PFs.

The "anger" of that thread (which is a completely separate issue) was due to the way their preorder lists were handled on a couple highly anticipated titles because people were MAD THEY DIDN'T GET AN AWESOME CPR PLAYFIELD they signed up for. If CPR made crap PFs that wouldn't be the case.

#7921 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Damn, there's a serious amount of delusion around here.
From the SAME PARAGRAPH:
"You get a much nicer product and a much denser and tougher PF."
Denser is harder. What? You doubt this is what he meant? Well, then read on...
"We use the best densest hardest custom wood we can get..."
Densest. Hardest. Right next to each other in their own words. Satisfied?

Because NO ONE is saying that CPR puts out an inferior playfield product that craters even the same as a current Stern, let alone worse. No one - because CPR has earned a reputation for playfields that are about legacy hardness and have improved durability compared to the 80's SS originals and similar durability to the original 90's DMD PFs.
The "anger" of that thread (which is a completely separate issue) was due to the way their preorder lists were handled on a couple highly anticipated titles because people were MAD THEY DIDN'T GET AN AWESOME CPR PLAYFIELD they signed up for. If CPR made crap PFs that wouldn't be the case.

But then why is there the claim that Stern's previous PFs didn't dimple, when they had a thinner veneer? I still think it's moisture, but who knows. It's a non-issue, with maybe the exception of a few batman 66s i've seen.

I'm pretty sure JJP doesn't cheap out on PFs, and theirs dimple too.

16
#7922 8 months ago

Holy sh*t ive been away for two days and this thread goes from the Munsters code sucks to dimple gate "Munsters edition". Now i got a big f*ckin dimple in my forehead from going.......

#7923 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Damn, there's a serious amount of delusion around here.
From the SAME PARAGRAPH:
"You get a much nicer product and a much denser and tougher PF."
Denser is harder. What? You doubt this is what he meant? Well, then read on...
"We use the best densest hardest custom wood we can get..."
Densest. Hardest. Right next to each other in their own words. Satisfied?

Because NO ONE is saying that CPR puts out an inferior playfield product that craters even the same as a current Stern, let alone worse. No one - because CPR has earned a reputation for playfields that are about legacy hardness and have improved durability compared to the 80's SS originals and similar durability to the original 90's DMD PFs.
The "anger" of that thread (which is a completely separate issue) was due to the way their preorder lists were handled on a couple highly anticipated titles because people were MAD THEY DIDN'T GET AN AWESOME CPR PLAYFIELD they signed up for. If CPR made crap PFs that wouldn't be the case.

Claiming it is the densest doesn't mean it is. It doesn't mean Stern's is inferior, it doesn't provide results of testing. They provided no numbers other than thickness measurements. Thickness does not equal density or hardness. I understand the anger in the thread was about preorders, that was part of my point. My main point is: people are bitching about Stern saving $12 per playfield when the premise is based on speculation from someone who has not tested Stern's playfields, and has little to no knowledge of what actually happens @ Stern.

15
#7924 8 months ago

radio check .... am i sill in the Munsters thread?

#7925 8 months ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Claiming it is the densest doesn't mean it is. It doesn't mean Stern's is inferior, it doesn't provide results of testing. They provided no numbers other than thickness measurements. Thickness does not equal density or hardness. I understand the anger in the thread was about preorders, that was part of my point. My main point is: people are bitching about Stern saving $12 per playfield when the premise is based on speculation from someone who has not tested Stern's playfields, and has little to no knowledge of what actually happens @ Stern.

Great points. Independent density testing of a CPR/Stern PF is the only way to definitively get to the "truth".

Even though most of us are clueless about what actually happens @ Stern, it's clear to many of us (who have been buying their products for decades) that Stern is tenacious about taking cost out of the machine. At the same time, build quality has declined and the boards are less reliable. For example, I received my Munsters Pro on 2/21 and it's still unplayable (node boards can't be found). A new CPU board is apparently in the mail. I realize "shit happens", but I've been buying NIB Sterns for over 15 years and the # of issues I've had to deal with has gone up steadily since my KISS Premium purchase (roughly coincident with the SPIKE transition).

So...the CPR post that vireland shared resonated with some of us (who have anecdotal evidence that PF's are less durable than they use to be).

All of us love pinball and respect Stern. We all want to see Stern thrive.

#7926 8 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

radio check .... am i sill in the Munsters thread?

Didn’t you hear, nobody cares about Munsters anymore, it’s all aboot what’s coming next. Dimpling is trending here ...

There is science and there is theory. When considering playfield toughness, issues are resolved by who has the best theory because nobody can convincing prove their version plays out. I’d like to hear some approaches comparing Stern’s typical wood density and consistency with ideas about what additional density could be achieved in order to resolve excessive dimpling.

Jury is out on the science of hardwood floors too. Ten years ago I installed hardwood flooring with a finish that was tougher than steel, titanium and could crush diamonds. The finish is uv protected and guaranteed for 50 years. LIARS . The flooring has dents from when I dropped a hammer and a screw driver and a drill and ... There holes from heels, scrapes from when I moved a sofa. A kitchen chair lost its protective pad and has marked the floor. My cat has put plenty of little marks on the surface running away from herself. I am disappointed in how much sun fade they have seen too. However, in spite of their flaws and apparent destructibility, they still look spectacular.

(A good floorgument tops a cargument any day of the week and twice on Sundays)

#7927 8 months ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Claiming it is the densest doesn't mean it is. It doesn't mean Stern's is inferior, it doesn't provide results of testing. They provided no numbers other than thickness measurements. Thickness does not equal density or hardness. I understand the anger in the thread was about preorders, that was part of my point. My main point is: people are bitching about Stern saving $12 per playfield when the premise is based on speculation from someone who has not tested Stern's playfields, and has little to no knowledge of what actually happens @ Stern.

It's already been done. But the results were dismissed because they didn't fit the narrative of those that say all playfields are the same.

#7928 8 months ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

It's already been done. But the results were dismissed because they didn't fit the narrative of those that say all playfields are the same.

They said in the other thread that they use thicker vainers so they can sand them more.

#7929 8 months ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

They said in the other thread that they use thicker vainers so they can sand them more.

I read that too. I'm talking about hardness tests done with a rebound tester.

-1
#7930 8 months ago

I'd love to see a playfield using an alternate material. Maybe something like synboard, a cellular PVC product that builders are now using in place of wood. Aluminum, perhaps? Or maybe it's time for the steely ball to be reimagined. What if it had a silicone rubber coating on the outside?

I wouldn't mind seeing a complete re-design of cabinets for home use. I don't need to worry about cash boxes and/or trying to break into or rough handle my own machine. I'd love to see something totally modern and sleek that doesn't require a huge box made of wood.

I don't remember the name of the game, but wasn't there a pinball machine back in the '70s or '80s that was a two-player simultaneous double-sided almost flat cocktail table game with legs in the center?

Give me something made of metal. Z-shaped support, maybe, but totally sleek, just enough table depth to hold the mechs above and below, perhaps little or no backbox, with the LCD display closer to or integrated into the playfield.

I'd pay extra for something that looks more like it belongs in my home than a laundromat in NY.

Oh, yeah, Munsters...

18
#7931 8 months ago
C383906C-D8D2-43A8-8F78-A43A9D4C97DE (resized).jpeg
#7932 8 months ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

[quoted image]

Looks like you need help moving it. I'll stop over after work

-1
#7933 8 months ago
Quoted from thirdedition:

They said in the other thread that they use thicker vainers so they can sand them more.

Again, it was ALSO said by CPR in the other thread that they produce the densest, hardest playfields as a result. You can't be the "-est" if you're the same as the others in the field. That's why their playfields don't crater like the majority of the newer Sterns.

16
#7934 8 months ago
Quoted from kcZ:

Looks like you need help moving it. I'll stop over after work

My daughter and I got it down and set up but your welcome to come and play If anyone in the area wants to stop by and try it send me a PM. My wife is leaving tomorrow and gone until Sunday so I have lots of pinball time.

Bill

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#7935 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Again, it was ALSO said by CPR in the other thread that they produce the densest, hardest playfields as a result. You can't be the "-est" if you're the same as the others in the field. That's why their playfields don't crater like the majority of the newer Sterns.

Crazy that the people that make the playfields say they are the best. I would have thought they would downplay their own.

At the end of the day though I don't care. I bought a GOTG and it has "dimples" they don't bother me at all.

Back to Munsters, I really want to buy a Premium, but I need to convince the lady friend that it is worth it.

#7936 8 months ago

Mine arrived yesterday driver didn't call ahead and dropped it off at my front door, got it in the house when I got home but no unboxing yet. I got a call I might be getting my MBLE tomorrow unless then messed up and have 2 unboxing's.

IMG_2733 (resized).JPG
#7937 8 months ago

Only about 10 games in on the LE but loving it so far.

#7938 8 months ago
Quoted from bohunr:

Mine arrived yesterday driver didn't call ahead and dropped it off at my front door, got it in the house when I got home but no unboxing yet. I got a call I might be getting my MBLE tomorrow unless then messed up and have 2 unboxing's.
[quoted image]

Majorly uncool the carrier delivered that with no advance scheduling and just left it! I’d be fuming! Let your distributor know that is total BS. So glad you got it inside safe.

#7939 8 months ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

If anyone in the area wants to stop by and try it send me a PM. My wife is leaving tomorrow and gone until Sunday so I have lots of pinball time.

So if I get in my car now...

#7940 8 months ago
Quoted from GamerRick:

Majorly uncool the carrier delivered that with no advance scheduling and just left it! I’d be fuming! Let your distributor know that is total BS. So glad you got it inside safe.

No signature.
Then "I never received it".
Send another please.

#7941 8 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Holy sh*t ive been away for two days and this thread goes from the Munsters code sucks to dimple gate "Munsters edition". Now i got a big f*ckin dimple in my forehead from going.......

It’s funny we all keep coming back in here though....

#7942 8 months ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

If anyone in the area wants to stop by and try it send me a PM.

I may hit you up on that offer. I'm considering buying a game at MGC as part of the new game promo. Currently leaning toward MBrSE but thinking about a Munsters Prem.

#7943 8 months ago
Quoted from bohunr:

Mine arrived yesterday driver didn't call ahead and dropped it off at my front door, got it in the house when I got home but no unboxing yet. I got a call I might be getting my MBLE tomorrow unless then messed up and have 2 unboxing's.
[quoted image]

Glad there are no pinball loving porch pirates in your area ...

#7944 8 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

Glad there are no pinball loving porch pirates in your area ...

See what I said above.....

#7945 8 months ago
Quoted from Wotto:

See what I said above.....

Not a fan of Grand Theft Pinball.

#7946 8 months ago
Quoted from bohunr:

Mine arrived yesterday

502, you made the over 500 club!

#7947 8 months ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

Only about 10 games in on the LE but loving it so far.

Congrats! What is that pin dolly you have there?

#7948 8 months ago
Quoted from Lawnboy:

My daughter and I got it down and set up but your welcome to come and play If anyone in the area wants to stop by and try it send me a PM. My wife is leaving tomorrow and gone until Sunday so I have lots of pinball time.
Bill[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Nice. So it looks like plywood cabinet base on Munsters now?

#7949 8 months ago

Anyone tried to powder coat the side rails and lockdown bar? Can you easily remove the gold foil stuff behind the webs of the side rails?

#7950 8 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Anyone tried to powder coat the side rails and lockdown bar? Can you easily remove the gold foil stuff behind the webs of the side rails?

If they're like the Game of Thrones Lannister/Stark rails, it's just a foil-covered piece of thin cardboard, held in place with screws and two sided tape. It's no problem if that's the case here, too.

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