(Topic ID: 217394)

The Munsters Hype (Because every evening its Halloween)


By Macca101010

1 year ago



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#5751 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Well if we're buying into that completely unrealistic fantasy (at least where Stern is concerned), why not ask if people would like a free Stern pinball machine if it were made in China. Same amount of fantasy in both questions.
Where Stern machines are assembled (USA) has very, VERY little to do with the past 10 years of substantial price increases and simultaneous parts quality reduction to save manufacturing costs and fatten margins.
Note: This doesn't mean I haven't recommended a Munsters for the route I help with - they're bringing in a Pro and a Premium, but let's be real about the price increases and where that money is going.

Obviously you don't understand the meaning of a hypothetical question . According to Google the average US hourly rate is $24 57 and the average Chinese hourly rate is $3 60 not every American factory worker would get $24 57 but that also means not every Chinese factory worker would get $3 60 , not to mention factory costs , power costs and all other manufacturing associated costs are lower .Why do you think everything from lawn mowers , TV's , water pumps and medical equipment are designed in places such as the US , Germany , Australia but are manufactured in China . To save on costs .

#5752 8 months ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Obviously you don't understand the meaning of a hypothetical question . According to Google the average US hourly rate is $24 57 and the average Chinese hourly rate is $3 60 not every American factory worker would get $24 57 but that also means not every Chinese factory worker would get $3 60 , not to mention factory costs , power costs and all other manufacturing associated costs are lower .Why do you think everything from lawn mowers , TV's , water pumps and medical equipment are designed in places such as the US , Germany , Australia but are manufactured in China . To save on costs .

There's hypothetical, and there's pointless. Your hypothetical is pointless because much of the Stern machine parts are ALREADY being manufactured in China and just shipped here to be assembled in the cabinet and on the playfield. There are little or no actual savings left to earn from moving the assembly of the large, expensive cabinets and playfields to China because you lose fine-grain control of the channel. It makes no sense to do that one step in China for just the final assembly due to the loss of fine channel control and massive increase in shipping costs and delivery time.

#5753 8 months ago

Well after reading through this thread I have decided to go with a MBR classic.

And at under 6k , full featured , a outstanding build quality , and finished code lead me to this decision.

Was really wanted a Munsters Prem but an all B/W game matched with meh code and simple layout with out any real moving toys helped me with this. Also the added 1500 dollars to get a Prem over a CGC,

Really wanted this game but Ill pass until codes finished to make a decision.

#5754 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

There's hypothetical, and there's pointless. Your hypothetical is pointless because much of the Stern machine parts are ALREADY being manufactured in China and just shipped here to be assembled in the cabinet and on the playfield. There are little or no actual savings left to earn from moving the assembly of the large, expensive cabinets and playfields to China because you lose fine-grain control of the channel. It makes no sense to do that one step in China for just the final assembly due to the loss of fine channel control and massive increase in shipping costs and delivery time.

This is why I love pinside you ask a question and you never know where it will lead . I'll just put you down to keep making them in the USA. Go Munsters !

#5755 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Well if we're buying into that completely unrealistic fantasy (at least where Stern is concerned), why not ask if people would like a free Stern pinball machine if it were made in China. Same amount of fantasy in both questions.
Where Stern machines are assembled (USA) has very, VERY little to do with the past 10 years of substantial price increases and simultaneous parts quality reduction to save manufacturing costs and fatten margins.
Note: This doesn't mean I haven't recommended a Munsters for the route I help with - they're bringing in a Pro and a Premium, but let's be real about the price increases and where that money is going.

I don't know where all the money is going, but they've certainly hired more designers over the years and grown the organization overall (headed by GG). They've moved into a new headquarters and expanded their manufacturing capabilities. Maybe they managed to give Borg/Ritchie/Sheets/Sullivan raises? (the folks that carried Stern R&D for years). That would be nice.

Like you, I'm bummed by Stern's cost cutting. As long as they continue to sell everything they build, I'm afraid it's not going to change much. I'm skeptical that bitching on Pinside will change anything. The place to bitch is Stern...not hard to contact GG directly and express some of your concerns.

#5756 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Your hypothetical is pointless because much of the Stern machine parts are ALREADY being manufactured in China and just shipped here to be assembled in the cabinet and on the playfield.

He's not talking about parts. He's talking about labour. Stern's labour expense per machine is a significant cost compared to the relatively cheap Chinese parts used in each machine. Labour costs are why many manufacturing jobs have left the English (and other) speaking world over the last decade and gone to Asia. Would assembly of the entire machine in China and manufacturing of every component in China plus shipping costs produce a cheaper machine than the current way of doing it? If it did, would the top brass of Stern want to live in China (Gary, the designers, the coders, Zach, Jodie, Patrick ...) just to make a larger profit? I doubt it. To move the entire operation to China, Gary will need to find great pinball-loving designers and coders and pinball gurus who want to live in China. Taking them all out of Chicago, while the USA remains their greatest market and generates nice profits for Stern, and severing that link which has been built over the decades, would be a mistake.

#5757 8 months ago
Quoted from Aussiepinwiz:

He's not talking about parts. He's talking about labour. Stern's labour expense per machine is a significant cost compared to the relatively cheap Chinese parts used in each machine. Labour costs are why many manufacturing jobs have left the English (and other) speaking world over the last decade and gone to Asia.

He's also saying it's not as much as you think. Especially on a Spike game.

There's lots of talk out there that the net cost to Stern on an LE is $2500-3500 max, even with labor in the US.

-29
#5758 8 months ago
Quoted from dts:

If BM66 is a turd, I hope they polish many more... It’s super fun! The playfield layout is meant to be quirky and giddy, integrating with the theme.

Quirky and giddy? Super fun?

The fuck you smokin? It's a gawddamn turd and Lyman's talents for the last 2 years have been wasted on this crap fest.

14
#5759 8 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

The fuck you smokin?

Obviously nothing close to the power of what u are smoking.

#5760 8 months ago
Quoted from Aussiepinwiz:He's not talking about parts. He's talking about labour. Stern's labour expense per machine is a significant cost compared to the relatively cheap Chinese parts used in each machine. Labour costs are why many manufacturing jobs have left the English (and other) speaking world over the last decade and gone to Asia. Would assembly of the entire machine in China and manufacturing of every component in China plus shipping costs produce a cheaper machine than the current way of doing it? If it did, would the top brass of Stern want to live in China (Gary, the designers, the coders, Zach, Jodie, Patrick ...) just to make a larger profit? I doubt it. To move the entire operation to China, Gary will need to find great pinball-loving designers and coders and pinball gurus who want to live in China. Taking them all out of Chicago, while the USA remains their greatest market and generates nice profits for Stern, and severing that link which has been built over the decades, would be a mistake.

There are certainly several constraints currently, that do not make this move advantageous. The demand for these, while increasing are likely (not yet anyways) high enough to warrant a full investment in a new factory. We've seen several photo shoots in China recently. If the hobby gains popularity in China, at that time more manufacturing supply might be required to satisfy local demand. The most expensive talent (executives, designers, programmers), would still be centered in the US.

But then from there the original idea might become possible.. And then perhaps shipping/transport costs overseas would never make financial sense to Stern to entirely replace US manufacturing for US consumption.. Or even, there might be totally separate designs for overseas markets, themes that have more local/regional appeal..

#5761 8 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I agree. Up to this point I really enjoyed SDTM. But if they have to hype new pins now that they also sell those same pins, they’ve lost credibility.

I called Flip N Out pinball this morning to get Escalera pricing and got to speak with the man himself, Zach. Could not be happier with our conversation, and I think the approach they are taking with SDTM is perfect. I'm excited to see their continued videos and streams, and also happy to say that Zach comes across on the phone as the exact same type of what you see is what you get average Joe guy as you see on SDTM, and that is truly refreshing. I'll be ordering an Escalera from him very soon!

#5762 8 months ago

Stern's major markets are USA and EU.

Pinball machines are heavy and fragile. It makes sense them to build them as close to your customers as possible.

Now one could ask "why Illinois?" but I'd imagine Gary feels a sense of pride in keeping pinball manufacturing in its historical home.

Also if you want to attract and hire creative talent you need to be in a desirable / big city. Remember you're not just convincing a programmer to work there but their spouse as well! How many of your wives would want to move to China?

#5763 8 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Stern's major markets are USA and EU.
Pinball machines are heavy and fragile. It makes sense them to build them as close to your customers as possible.
Now one could ask "why Illinois?" but I'd imagine Gary feels a sense of pride in keeping pinball manufacturing in its historical home.
Also if you want to attract and hire creative talent you need to be in a desirable / big city. Remember you're not just convincing a programmer to work there but their spouse as well! How many of your wives would want to move to China?

Maybe we can get them to move north just a little

#5764 8 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

News flash - lots of the components in Stern pins are made in China already. Only the big stuff (cab, playfield, etc) is made in the USA (though I'm also not 100% sure the playfield blanks aren't imported from other countries). The machines are basically assembled in the USA from a mix of US/Chinese parts.

The only things on the pin frabricated outside of the US are the molded toys and the board components. 97 - 95 % is sourced in the country it’s made.

#5765 8 months ago

I can't even begin to imagine the cost of shipping assembled cabinets from anywhere in the World to the States, but I would presume it is by orders of magnitude higher than simply sourcing the wood domestically (a win from a PR point of view too, since the cabinet & playfield are the see, touch & feel parts of the game) owing to the volumetric and actual weight of them. I don't think it would be cost effective to even import playfield blanks from abroad.

"95-97%" is a very generous estimate of stuff sourced in the USA though. If you assume that pretty much everything under the playfield has likely come from China then 95% is a pretty high number. I guess it depends on what you deem a pinball machine to be. If it's the intellectual property, the rules, the software and the touchy feely stuff, then certainly it is American made.

#5766 8 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Stern's major markets are USA and EU.
Pinball machines are heavy and fragile. It makes sense them to build them as close to your customers as possible.
Now one could ask "why Illinois?" but I'd imagine Gary feels a sense of pride in keeping pinball manufacturing in its historical home.
Also if you want to attract and hire creative talent you need to be in a desirable / big city. Remember you're not just convincing a programmer to work there but their spouse as well! How many of your wives would want to move to China?

Yeah, yeah, yeah Benjamin we all get it already, you hate Illinois. However, you are correct on the big city. Motorola moves from the burbs into the city for one of those reasons. They were having a hard time recruiting new talent that did not want to spend 2 hours in traffic commute back and forth. That would be a lot of wasted time getting wasted on your wonderful Wussconsin beer!

#5767 8 months ago

To be clear I hate Chicago not Illinois.

#5768 8 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

To be clear I hate Chicago not Illinois.

But do you hate Elk Grove Village?

#5769 8 months ago

It's not in Chicago proper, so I dislike it less.

If I had to diagnose my bias against Chicago vs all other major American cities that I love, it's probably because living nearby causes me to have to DRIVE through Chicago. So that forms most of my memories.

#5770 8 months ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Well after reading through this thread I have decided to go with a MBR classic.
And at under 6k , full featured , a outstanding build quality , and finished code lead me to this decision.
Was really wanted a Munsters Prem but an all B/W game matched with meh code and simple layout with out any real moving toys helped me with this. Also the added 1500 dollars to get a Prem over a CGC,
Really wanted this game but Ill pass until codes finished to make a decision.

You got me thinking...

I really like AFM, a lot!

The classic edition delivered is $6299

Hmmmm, sheeyat. That's a legit option to consider.

Damn you for complicating my first world problems.

#5771 8 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Quirky and giddy? Super fun?
The fuck you smokin? It's a gawddamn turd and Lyman's talents for the last 2 years have been wasted on this crap fest.

Uh... Yeah, manic fun, turntable, crane, stackable modes, great video integration, fun music, accessible to all levels, loved by many experts. Lyman loves it. You like RotorDave? He and his daughter love it. So did the constant stream of players at Banning recently. Not for you and some others, I guess. But turd and crap fest are...wrong.

#5772 8 months ago

The problem with pinball today is the prices are so high, it turns “Buyer Remorse” into a full on, bed-ridden terminal illness, only surpassed by the FOMO virus with it’s veracity and ability to destroy the budgets of so many innocent victims. I think Stern has learned to weaponize the Fear Of Missing Out, and this hype train was so sucessful they had to add an extra 100 LE’s to their schedule in order to capitalize on it. Pretty much Par for the pinball course if you ask me. I figure Stern will continue being Stern like Stern has always been, an average company building an average product for average players. Sometimes they get a hit, sometimes a miss, but you pretty much know what you can expect on average.

12
#5773 8 months ago
Quoted from Hollywoodbone:

Yes I agree! I just think the structure is different from what we are accustomed to

I think people just get so single tracked on how they think things 'should be' and lash out when its not. "non-mode" or games focused like that are very common.. even if not in latest releases. I mean, it's not like this is a dead concept.

AC/DC is a bit of hybrid.. along with GOT.. in the sense there are "modes" but they aren't really exclusive or lock out most other game play. You complete objectives to open up other things.

IronMan, Avengers, Metallica, TRON, Transformers(?), WPT, Stones, Avatar, etc I would argue are more in this 'features' vs 'modes' design we see with munsters. And if you go back to the WPC era.. there are many more familiar faces.. T2, FishTales, BSD, etc.

I'd argue you really have three styles out there in the DMD+ era... feature games, mode complete games, and mode-exclusive games.

I think in the era of 'crazy number of modes' people are getting lazy and just associating "number of modes" with deep or not. Deep reflects not how many modes or things must be done... but how nuanced and varied the game play is.

A game that had 30 modes of all doing the same stuff.. in the same manner.. I would not call deep. That's just scale. (and why people hate on woodchopping titles like Avengers). Contrast that with a game like Maiden, where HOW you score points and HOW you progress can be very extremely varied with lots of different paths available to you.

The other angle people munge is 'easy' or not with something being 'deep' or 'shallow'. TOM for instance... TOM is a game that most decent players should be able to play through quite easily. It has a decent number of modes... 8.. two multiballs.. etc. So it's not short in that category. But I wouldn't call it a deep game - again not because its easy - but because it's pretty dang linear in how things are done and points happen. Besides stacking vanish.. what variety is there in the way you play through the game? There is little branching in what to do.. and there is very little scoring difference in how you play (minus the 100mil jackpot). Where as a game like TNA is pretty damn simple, but very nuanced in how scoring and objectives pan out.

Quoted from Hollywoodbone:

I’m just hoping those other elements give me satisfying game play. Such as the kitty you talked about or trying to stack Lilly with the other modes. Or hitting jackpots and relighting them. Honestly seems like a fairly complex code. My fingers are crossed that this equates to FUN!

Yup.. and why I don't really give any thought to all the armchair quarterbacks who grade games at release. Plus, what invokes reactions from people vary.. and I don't think you really know what feels 'satisfying' until you are in the drivers seat.

YMMV

-10
#5774 8 months ago
Quoted from dts:

Uh... Yeah, manic fun, turntable, crane, stackable modes, great video integration, fun music, accessible to all levels, loved by many experts. Lyman loves it. You like RotorDave? He and his daughter love it. So did the constant stream of players at Banning recently. Not for you and some others, I guess. But turd and crap fest are...wrong.

Turntable is a selling point for you? You mean that clunky no fun to shoot lazy Susan that the ball always gets hung up on?
I could give two shits who likes a game or not. They're wrong. The layout sucks and the code can't fix it. Nuff said.

#5775 8 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Turntable is a selling point for you? You mean that clunky no fun to shoot lazy Susan that the ball always gets hung up on?
I could give two shits who likes a game or not. They're wrong. The layout sucks and the code can't fix it. Nuff said.

Yeah, I kinda like it. Back to the Munsters...

#5776 8 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66: I could give two shits who likes a game or not. They're wrong. The layout sucks and the code can't fix it. Nuff said.

Yes, that’s why you enlightened us with this logical defensive gem. It says a lot.

11
#5777 8 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

I could give two shits who likes a game or not. They're wrong. The layout sucks and the code can't fix it. Nuff said.

But no one cares what you think.

#5778 8 months ago

I think all the LEs are now sold out.

#5779 8 months ago
Quoted from ShinyBall:

I think all the LEs are now sold out.

Nah, they can just add another hundred.

-1
#5780 8 months ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

But no one cares what you think.

I care what I think, that's all that matters. If you didn't care you wouldn't comment. So it appears at least one other person cares what I think.

#5781 8 months ago
Quoted from ShinyBall:

I think all the LEs are now sold out.

There’s a distributor in Oregon that has one left.

#5782 8 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Nah, they can just add another hundred.

That is true.

Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

There’s a distributor in Oregon that has one left.

I stand corrected...I couldn't find one.

#5783 8 months ago

Any one here an any updates on shipping of pros?

#5784 8 months ago
Quoted from Hollywoodbone:

Any one here an any updates on shipping of pros?

Last I heard, starting shipping the end of this week at the earliest.

#5785 8 months ago
Quoted from Hollywoodbone:

Any one here an any updates on shipping of pros?

Try the distributor at flip n out pinball he might know

#5786 8 months ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Try the distributor at flip n out pinball he might know

Ha ha I don’t trust official sources. I’m looking for word on the street!

#5787 8 months ago

When are they going to show us pictures on the assembly line?

#5788 8 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

I care what I think, that's all that matters.

"So I'll share it ad nauseum on a forum"

#5789 8 months ago

There are a ton of LEs out there. The Pinball company and Colorado game exchange are just 2 that still have them

#5790 8 months ago
Quoted from slavin20:

There are a ton of LEs out there. The Pinball company and Colorado game exchange are just 2 that still have them

Not sure about a ton but probably 75-100 state side

#5791 8 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

"So I'll share it ad nauseum it on a forum"

As absolutely wrong as it is!

Let’s just say he is in the OVERWHELMING minority of thought on BM66 as it sits today

Maybe it was the diplomatic description of how he feels

#5792 8 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Not sure about a ton but probably 75-100 state side

Are they scalping these games above MSRP?

Is that why they are available?

26
#5793 8 months ago

Anyone who took the time to watch each of the 3 models streamed, should be able to make a decision about
whether this title interest them. I bought the LE because I like what it offers. Why do so many waste time complaining
about pins they have no interest in. It’s a hobby, go buy and play what you like.

#5794 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Are they scalping these games above MSRP?
Is that why they are available?

O I'm sure many are...

#5795 8 months ago
Quoted from Banker:

Anyone who took the time to watch each of the 3 models streamed, should be able to make a decision about
whether this title interest them. I bought the LE because I like what it offers. Why do so many waste time complaining
about pins they have no interest in. It’s a hobby, go buy and play what you like.

Agreed.

I bought the LE because of the features and the Premium because of its aesthetics.

10
#5796 8 months ago

I ordered a pro, the theme seems fun and will go great with my BM66, TAF and WOZ. It’s nick at nite in pinball form. I am excited for easy programming because I suck at pinball. My kids enjoy an easy game to play and they don’t understand all the rules. It should be fun to play for who ever wants to play it. I am super excited!

#5797 8 months ago
Quoted from crashnt20:

I ordered a pro, the theme seems fun and will go great with my BM66, TAF and WOZ. It’s nick at nite in pinball form. I am excited for easy programming because I suck at pinball. My kids enjoy an easy game to play and they don’t understand all the rules. It should be fun to play for who ever wants to play it. I am super excited!

When you ordered it, did your distributor say when you will get it?

#5798 8 months ago
Quoted from slavin20:

There are a ton of LEs out there. The Pinball company and Colorado game exchange are just 2 that still have them

https://gameexchange.biz/products/munsters-limited-edition-pinball

#5799 8 months ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

When you ordered it, did your distributor say when you will get it?

He said first half of Feb.

#5800 8 months ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I bought the LE because of the features and the Premium because of its aesthetics.

I bought the Pro for the flow
I bought the Premium because I am too cool for just a Pro
I bought the LE because I wear shirts with 9 popped collars

9 popped collars.jpg

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