This is how hard I tried to make weird al play right. My other 32 pinball games all play fine but... at your suggestion Gerry, I bought a kill-a-watt so I could check the voltage going to the game. 110.3 is normal according to my electrician & my 32 other games.

From google...

"Is house wiring 110 or 120?

The most common electrical outlet in any home is a 110 volt. Sometimes you may hear 110 volt plugs referred to as 120 volt. Do not be confused by this; think of them as one and the same"

Now that you refreshed my memory, I do remember you emailing me this... "You could maybe put a "variable ac transformer" (variac) on your power outlet that feeds the P3. I can't say for sure if that will help or not without testing"

"Maybe and can't say for sure" weren't very reassuring phrases making me want to buy a gadget to arbitrarily add more voltage to my $11k pinball game. I didn't want to fry it.

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Don’t feed the trolls.

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Even though many of us have been blocked by him, judging by those stats, we can all guess who the troll is.

I'm the one who bought Don's Weird Al machine.I've been a Weird Al fan since childhood, and this will be my first pin in my home. I'm so excited, I can't wait for it to arrive next week!

Don, thanks for showing these videos so I can try to troubleshoot if needed. I'm hoping I don't have issues with the ramps.

Gerry, thanks for the advice about the voltage. I just tested and have 124V coming out of my outlet, so maybe that will help with the flipper strength.

Additionally, Gerry thank you for making the P3 machine. I don't have a lot of room in my house for pins, so the innovative space-saving nature of the P3 is perfect for my use!

I also love to see innovation in pinball. Revenge from Mars in one of my favorite tables, and I've been waiting to see a modern integration of video and pinball. And then came the P3!

Fantastic. I'm glad to see it going to a big Weird Al fan!

Nice - if you have any problems with the ramps, it won't be due to power! First two things I recommend you do are disable the same-button setting and turn down all of the flipper strengths (in Weird Al attract mode, open coin door, hit start to bring up the operator menu, and close the coin door. Navigate to Settings -> Mechs -> Switches and turn off both one-handed play and the white button setting for all flippers. Flipper strengths are in Settings -> Mechs -> Coils). Better to start low and slowly raise them than to fire a ball through the backpanel of the machine.

Sounds like you're one of the people we had in mind when we starting designing the machine. We hope you ENJOY IT!

If you have any issues at all, any number of us can help. The first place to go, though, is the multimorphic support page. There are lots of how-tos for usage, maintenance, and troubleshooting, including the P3 Learning Series videos that all new P3 owners should watch through at least once. The P3 does a lot more than a traditional machine, and to do that, it's made a bit differently.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

For what it is worth, my P3 has never had flipper issues. I measure 120 at the wall.

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I don’t think he enjoys a lot of things. Seems like a very negative person based off his ratio of thumbs ups and downs.

You guys rock! Good customer service and awesome pins. I can’t wait for cannon and weird Al to hopefully ship soon.

I hope the 124v from your outlet solves the issue I was having if you choose to couple your mid and lower flippers. If I uncoupled the flippers, the low power issue went away and I could hit ramps all day long without issue. I just couldn't get used to playing pinball using more than 2 flipper buttons. Nor could my guests who typically stay just one night in our short term rental.

There is so much innovation in the p3 platform. Other modules that dont use 5 flippers would likely be fine even with 110 volts. For me the 6 flipper buttons and the underpowered flippers using 110v were what prompted me to sell it.

Gerry went above and beyond to try to help. The customer service I received was the best in the business.

You have a P3 electrical meter? I didn't even get a T-shirt

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D0n is a scam artist and a troublemaker. He scammed a free DMD off the stumblor guy. He’s probably working an angle here.

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Lets get this thread heading back in a positive direction. Who's playing some Weird Al tonight?

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That time I had two Weirds Al's at once.

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The flipper issue is not due to lack of power. It's from putting the upper and lower flippers on as 1 button configuration. There isn't a delay or EOS break switch, to give a .05 sec delay from when the lower flippers are activated, to give power to the upper flippers. This lack of delay system, overtaxes the system, and causes random flippers to be weak with loss of power. Either on the upswing, causing a ball to knock the flipper down, or a flipper to just not fire at all or seconds after flipping.

if you really want to see it in action. Hit both flippers at the same time constantly, and you will see random flipper activity. (if you have upper and lower set to 1 button).

There are 3 solutions I can see to resolve this problem.
Either program a force delay, with 1 button config. So that the upper flippers do not fire until a 200ms passes from firing the bottom flippers (simulating a EOS switch).
Or have the flippers have manual switch activate when the bottom flippers fire, that activates the top flippers. Sterns early SS iron maiden has this on the flippers. Doesn't do anything else. but the upper flippers will still work normal if you arch over the switch. It's only there to delay the firing of the upper flippers slightly, to stop this from happening.
Or add a 2 stage button to the red buttons as an option.

Oh sure... wait until I say I'm done with the topic and then get technical. You know I can't resist a good technical discussion!

Sorry, that's not true. Low wall voltage absolutely impacts flipper performance. V=IR is a good starting point, but it's much more complicated here because the loads are inductive, and the regulated power supply attempts to keep the voltage constant. What gives is the available current the supply can provide. Bump up the wall voltage, and the regulated supply can provide more current and therefore more power to the flipper. 9% more voltage will make an impactful difference.

Single button vs separate button obviously matters because the current is divided when circuits activate at the same time. You're right that delayed activation by any of the 3 means you suggested would help ensure more current to each circuit (especially important when chimp flipping, as you described). There are other ways to do it too, including LC circuits. Good mod opportunity for those deadset on single button play. Just consider the ramifications when there are additional features mapped to the secondary buttons and/or other P3 games that use the buttons differently.

The best option is just to play as the machine was originally designed... with separate buttons. Otherwise make sure your wall voltage isn't low, and don't chimp flip!

Can we put this to rest now? I should be spending my time on other projects that may or may not render this discussion entirely moot.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Same

The thing is. When people come over. Especially non pinball people. They will not like the game if they have to use different flipper buttons for every flipper. I've seen it happen over and over. I want people to give weird Al a chance. Even with 4 flippers on 2 buttons and 1 mini flipper on another. 100% of people cannot get the hang of the mini flipper. They totally forget it about it every time. (casual or non pinball player). WHich isn't a big deal, because it just comes back down to the bottom.

Even if you don't chimp flip. The upper flipper will be weaker than it should. I've seen the flipper get knocked back down when making contact with the ball about 40% or more out in mid flip. Or massive loss in power.

My statement about power loss, didn't mean that low voltage a the house couldn't effect performance. I just ment, that the p3 system isn't have flipper problems due to the flippers not being powerful enough. Flippers have plenty of power. It's just the distribution of power that is the problem.

Now I know you keep wanting p3 to be a multiflipper button setup. But every single person that has come over to my house for tournaments, leagues, and casual play. Have absolutely HATED, multi button play. Hated it. They would never give Weird Al the time of day, nor ever consider buying one with that setup. Hence why I set mine to 1 button and kept it there. and it worked for all my other games. Heist plays no problem with 1 button configuration. I can do everything I need to do. but it is kinda frustrating that the upper flipper spikes with power loss from time to time.

There has to be a solution we can do, to make the duel button users AND the single button users happy, and have the flippers perform flawlessly regardless of which format we use. Power spikes, have been the only issue people have been complaining about. The game is solid, enjoyed, and loved. It's been well received with the 100's that have played mine. But I do need to find a solution to making the single button design, play as good as the 2 button.

To be fair, the additional button situation is not unique to the P3. Every pin that has additional buttons (Black Knight Magnasave comes to mind) faces a similar issue. The additional button is often ignored.

There is a game I can't recall at the moment that had a multiple button layout where the second button was shaped to partially wrap around the traditional button, anyone remember what game that was?

You can set player profiles up to use different flipper button configurations, no? I thought you could, but I haven't messed around with profiles yet.

I leave my buttons set on default. In this age of arcade games, console games, computer gaming, etc. You'd think that using more than two buttons wouldn't be an issue. For me it's not. It does take a little getting used to only because most pinball doesn't work that way. I did have a few people comment that they would prefer having it set to two buttons. I guess some people don't want to go through the adjustment period. Lockdown bar buttons were new at one time too. Now they are "normal".

P2K games had this.
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I have to agree with Neo. I just can't do the multi button set up. I have gotten mostly used to the separate button for the mezzanine flipper, but that is only because of how rarely the ball is up there (and honestly after two months of ownership, I STILL forget about 50% of the time). For the main upper flippers...sorry but no way. Not with how often they come into play, and especially for times like multiball. I simply can't manage two sets of buttons during multiball...I end up ignoring the uppers in those circumstances, or getting frustrated because I would have made the shot, but wasn't on the right button. It is too big of a leap (at least for me) after so many decades of the single button convention. And for any casual players...absolutely not. 90% of the time they ignore upper flippers anyway, and that will quickly become 100% if they wouldn't have to use a different button on top of it.

Plus, to be perfectly honest...as much as I love my P3...it isn't the only machine I play. Especially as a tournament player, but even as a "for fun" player, I do not WANT to get used to a multi button set up, because with very few exceptions, no other machine is set up like that. Sure, you can argue for games like Haunted House, but to me that is completely different as you only have to switch when you go to an entirely different playfield, and the pace of the game is not even in the same ballpark. Having to manage that on the same playfield is very different to me. If I get used to reaching for a different button, and in a tournament I'm playing Spiderman and go for that button to hit the Venom ramp, guess what happens. Not good. I shouldn't have to rewire my brain for a completely basic, core pinball muscle memory depending on what machine I am playing. Sorry but things like Magnasave and action buttons are not the same...at all. I am talking flippers only here. That is why I am so thankful P3 has the flexibility to allow for a traditional configuration. Multiple button setup is simply not going to work for a huge chunk of your audience, no matter how much Multimorphic wants it to. I respect the desire, and that it is the design intent, but it just isn't going to happen for most of us.

Side note...I do love the extra buttons for other functions...such as lane change. That took a little getting used to, but since it is a separate function, it didn't take much. I would also be good with them used for interacting with the screen or a diverter (Shadow style), or toy or something, but just not for my flippers.

This is the first I have heard about flipper strength issues related to the single button configuration. It does make sense though, and explains a few things that I have noticed...especially the huge lack of hold strength on the upper flippers. I had sort of assumed that was by design to not need a hold winding or something along those lines, but this explains it. The hold strength is a slight bummer, but really not a big deal. The bigger deal is if it does randomly affect the flip power, and while I do not think it is something that happens often, it would explain why once in awhile I hit what felt like a clean shot that doesn't make the spiral. I assumed it was skill related, LOL. I will say a good, clean shot makes it nearly always, but this could explain those that do not. I do not feel it is a huge deal, but if something could be done about it, that would be great.

My ultimate wish would be for staged primary flipper buttons, like almost all other manufacturers do. With P3s modularity, it should be an easy thing to offer as an add-on. I bet you would sell a ton. From the outside looking in, it seems like a no brainer.

All that said, I mean no disrespect to Multimorphic or the design intent. It must be frustrating for Gerry to read things like this when so much thought definitely went in to his reasoning. I am truly happy for those that enjoy the stock set-up and are capable of using it correctly. I get why it has advantages. I absolutely love my machine and do not find how it is currently to be a deal breaker. But making some tweaks to better accommodate those of us with no ability or desire to get used to the multi button configuration would be very nice to have.

All of this is why I had to sell our weird al. The P3 definitely has lots of Pros but that one Con of having 6 flipper buttons is what ruins it for most people.

I also thought that the P3 always finishing its start-up at the menu screen was odd. My airbnb guests turn the arcade on and off by themselves with a single alexa command...alexa arcade on... turning 50+ games on at once. The ONLY game in the entire private arcade that didn't fully start up and was ready to play was the P3. Many of my airbnb guests couldn't figure out how to get weird al to play from the menu screen. They would text me and say the weird al game isn't working. That got annoying. The p3 should know what module is in it and start-up directly to that game each time... not to the menu screen.

There is a setting that will make it boot up into whatever game you want (as long as the module is in). So you could make it turn on to Weird Al if you wanted to.

I had no idea.

Yeah, my kids hate the multi button flipper and I only have heist. Weird Al and cannon on the way. All will be set to single button unless it seems impossible to make shots. Having one button for the flippers is huge. Hoping when he says making it a moot point he means it’s all one button. It won’t sell to the masses with multiple or be good for beginners/kids. Anyone who came to my house prior to one button did not enjoy heist but since it’s been set on one they love it.

Preferences are fine and all, but love and hate are strong terms for something that is so easy to get used to. Evolution of pinball as a game and platform is what the P3 is about IMO...the MM team has done everything they can to accommodate both. I don't see why this is so divisive. Try it both ways, pick the one you like.

It took me all of a few games to get used to a multi-button configuration. Video games in arcades don't all have the same control panel...same difference.

"Trial by fire" at RPM... we put the P3 out there and let our guests figure it out. We have lots of games with multiple button configurations. Some get it, some won't, but that's the fun of having an environment with so many different types of amusements.

Me personally? Took a few games to get the hang of using multiple buttons, but now it's the only way I roll.

Granted, I grew up at a time when arcade games like Stargate sat next to Missile Command, Discs of Tron, and Zwackery. Spinners with up and down movements, trackballs which pinched your hands, thumbsticks, control panels... whoo!

I only play with separate buttons now. I thought I'd like it better being on the same buttons but I found I play much better being separate.

Being able to hit a very important ramp shot only 25% of the time isn't good. I'm curious how you often you were able to make the ramps shots after coupling the flippers... using 3 buttons instead of 5?

By the way, if just 3 more people leave a review on pinside for weird al, it will be eligible for the pinside 100 list. Lots of people on this thread haven't left a review.

I’d say it’s absolutely worth the effort for any P3 owner to take a couple days to learn working the four buttons (not 5). Even if you don’t use them during a multiball, the upper flippers are out of the way and not blocking your orbit shots.
You can “hide and hold” a ball under the upper flippers during multiball vs trying to trap up.
I can progress through the game further and my scores have went way up.
The learning curve is very minor. And for guest, you can easily set it back to single button. (Except for the Mezzanine flipper, that’s only controlled with the left white flipper button)

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Why Don? You sold your game and have expressed your feelings (and left a bad rating). I love this thread, please don’t ruin it.

I am currently at a show with Weird Al. I have the flippers on one button during the show. I just got done playing a game and hit the spiral ramp 1 out of 3 on my launches. 4 times for the Harvey lock during gameplay and I got Drink From the Firehose. I hit 3 of those to continue my ball.

I have the left flipper set to 35 I believe. The ball launch feeds my upper left flipper perfectly tight to the rail with no ball bounce. I also have the spiral ramp perfectly level with the upper part of the ramp. Those 2 things are critical to hit the shot repeatedly.

I prefer to play with the upper flippers on the white buttons when I play it at my business for the same reasons Rebel listed.

I definitely had to do some tweaking to make my spiral ramp as reliable as it is (but that is no different than what is required on any machine with shots that "push the boundaries" a bit). Once all that was done, I did need to turn the power of that flipper back down a bit to keep from causing rejects from TOO MUCH power. So I do not want to give the impression that this single button power issue is a big widespread thing, at least not for most people as far as I can tell. Unfortunately it sounds like d0n was fighting other issues with his machine.

I will give the multiple buttons another, fair shot. Alot of good players who's opinions I respect are saying it is the way to go. I still hesitate to WANT to get used to it for the reasons I stated above. I still will wish for an optional staged flipper button option someday, but I will certainly not be upset if it never comes. I am glad we at least have the options that we have.

I am still a bit confused about the pockets below the upper flippers, but I am starting to embrace them as a place to stash a ball during multiball. I still think since the machine knows the ball is in there, I wish it would acknowledge or even reward it when it happens. It would be a neat opportunity for something like 2x scoring for say 10 seconds during multiball, after which the flipper auto raises to force the ball out. In single ball a callout like "HEY GET OUT OF THERE!" "EMPLOYEES ONLY", etc would be fun, and then have the machine raise your flipper automatically to let it out. That would both make it a fun feature, a possible reward, and avoid the confusion that inevitably happens when your ball disappears, especially for a new player. If you can't fix it, feature it!

Great idea!

You're my best pinball buddy. I get most of my games from you even though you're 2 hours away. I don't want to piss you off but how is giving my honest opinion on a game that I've owned (bought from you even), ruining the thread? Others are saying the same exact things I am. Weird Al and the P3 platform has some major flaws. Why can't they be pointed out without individual owners taking it so personal?

I know you champion all the small boutique companies and for some reason take it very personally when anyone says anything that is remotely not positive about one of their games. I don't understand that.

People can point out the negatives about wizard of oz and gilligans island (or any game I own) all day long and I would never take it personally even though they are my 2 favorite games of all time.

The problem isn't you having an opinion or even sharing it. It's your distortion of the facts to support your opinion - are you in politics by any chance???

Quick examples:
- Complaining that you need 5 flipper buttons to play Weird Al... FALSE!
- Stating MAJOR flaws in the platform.. Please. Go away troll. If there were MAJOR problems it wouldn't be just you whining.

And... Know what? I don't feel like re-hashing your BS. You are the same in all the threads I've seen you in.

Have a nice day d0n

Apologies to the group….

I have no drama to add. I’m on day three and love this game. I tried changing the flippers to appease the wife but the upper flipper made the point useless. I’ve gotten the hang of it but definitely struggle on multiballs. That will take some time to get used to.

All that being said. Weird Al had more going on just in the playfield module than 99% of games I own or have ever played. Just damn impressive. Impressive even if you ignore the playfield screen. That could be blacked out and this game would be bad ass.

Well done Gerry and Team.

The machine does not come with a switch there and the SDK does not define a standard collision gate at that location but a game could possibly define its own collision gate if it wanted to. It appears no games have done that yet.

Doesn't Heist's Safe Cracker Side Job do exactly this?

Yes, Heist does this exactly, and yes, clempo any game could define an area under the flipper(s) that has interaction with the game. I know because I've done it.

I got a P3 because it is different than your average pin. And, I prefer the default WAM button assignment for the same reason.

I would not expect anyone to get the full WAM 5 flipper experience the first time they play. It's something that is acquired over time. Personally, I enjoyed the challenge of learning the multi button set-up.

My 2 latest pinball acquisitions are WAM (5 flippers on 4 buttons) and Judge Dredd (4 flippers on 2 buttons, but with 2 added buttons for other functions). So, I switch between them quite often. Whenever I screw-up a flip after switching pins, I laugh at myself and try to do better next time.

I do wish that the P3's buttons were a bit closer together.

- Mark

I started a heist forum. I love it and didn’t see an owners thread. I figured a good spot to ask questions as I get further into the pin. Finally cracked top 10 last night

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/heist-welcome-to-ocean-city

Opinion from everyone....Yay or nay with the center post? I personally like them but I am wondering if the ball times will get too long with Weird Al if I install it (I don't want to open back up the outlanes). Also I consider myself a decent player yet I can't get scores like this

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It's your game, set it up how you want. If you think the ball times are getting too long, tighten up the slings, open the outlanes, and ditch the center post or any combination of those.

I have the outlanes in the most open position with the hardest outlane posts and no center post and I prefer it that way but to each their own. It's not a contest, It's about what you enjoy.

And I should add, if you get some shirts and play certain modes well, you can get that type of score in one mode.

What does it mean to tighten up the slings on the P3?

Wouldn’t expect a difference with the center post. I finally put it in after owning the machine for years and can’t recall a single bounce back in dozens of games. Don’t think the geometry of the game produces many SDTM balls, plus the outlanes are very hungry.

That thought has never entered my mind for an second with the P3.

The center post didn’t have much to do with that score, I just had a really good game with lots of stacking.
I have six modules for my P3. I think it’s more useful with the CCR module compared to WA so I’ve just always left it installed.