(Topic ID: 286726)

Multi player not resetting to player 1


By Jets_1479

3 months ago

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There are 69 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 months ago

Hello,
First post. I have a Bally Amigo. I have owned it for 8 years been tinkering and learning little by little. I have an issue that I am just stuck on. In multi player, 2,3 or 4. For ball 1 all players no issues, after the final players ball for the round whether that’s 2nd, 3rd or 4th, drains it is switching to ball 2 then 3 and staying on the last player till game over. Player 1 works with no issues. The game resets normally. I have cleaned and cleaned and I just don’t know where to look for this issue. I do have schematics but I don’t understand how to read them very well.

#2 3 months ago

To clarify, on multiplayer games the ball count increases after the last player but the player never resets back to player 1. Is that right?
Start by checking whether the Player Reset relay fires:
Amigo player reset relay (resized).jpg
When the last player's ball drains, the Ball Count unit should advance. The arm that advances the Ball Count unit should also close an End Of Stroke (EOS) switch (in red) that should in turn fire the Player Reset relay. The Player Reset relay should hold itself active through the other two switches until after the Player Unit resets back to player 1.

/Mark

#3 3 months ago

MarkG yes that is correct the ball count increases to ball 2 and 3 but remains on the last player. So after player 4 for example drains their ball, it goes to ball 2 still on player 4, then when that ball drains it becomes ball 3 player 4 then game over.

I will see what I can determine of that EOS switch you have highlighted for me tomorrow. I am not real good at these things in this regard however. I’ll get back to you soon

#4 3 months ago

If the player reset is working check this make or Break switch is clean and had the correct gap.

Also ensure the gray wire doesn't have a broken solder joint. (give it a gentle tug).

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#5 3 months ago

ArgosySK i honestly can’t decipher which relay is the player reset relay? Any ideas? I’ve clicked all the relays and I identified the one that triggers the next up player from 1-4 but not the one that resets it back to one? The unit does rest with the game reset and start up sequence so I know it works just the in play has some issue holding it up? Again I am new to this and I just stuck here. Everything else to this point has been new bulbs, new rubbers, and cleaning gummed up units and then this issue popped up.....any help appreciated

#6 3 months ago

MarkG j am lost as to what this eos switch looks like and how to properly ascertain if it’s functioning correctly? And tips to help a noob out? I did check all the switches and ran some sand paper between them to shine them up but beyond that I am lost

#7 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

i honestly can’t decipher which relay is the player reset relay?

Do the Relays have labels? If so, with the machine turned on, find which one
is labeled "Player Reset Relay, and manually push it in and see if it stays
energized on its own until the Score Motor stops.
Edit: On 2nd thought, I'm thinking the Player Reset Relay may not energize the Score Motor
when pushed in. If you can manually step up the Ball Count Unit (it should be labeled), and
see if the Player Reset Relay (should be labeled) energizes when it's all the way pushed in.

#8 3 months ago

The Player Reset relay will have a black wire (like most other relays) on one coil solder lug and an orange-red wire on the other coil solder lug.

Try manually advancing your Ball Count Unit by pushing in the plunger for the advance solenoid. If you hear a relay click when you advance the Ball Count unit it's probably the Player Reset relay. If not, have a close look at you Ball Count unit. The advance solenoid plunger should pull on a pivoting arm that advances the Ball Count wiper disk one step when the plunger is released. (The other solenoid will reset the Ball Count back to zero and isn't what you're looking for.) On one end of the pivoting arm there is probably a normally open switch that closes when the advance solenoid plunger pulls on the pivoting arm. That switch is what fires the Player Reset relay. It should have an orange-red wire on one switch leaf (same wire as on the Player Reset relay coil solder lug) and a yellow wire on the other switch leaf.

#9 3 months ago

They unfortunately are not labeled.....some are but most aren’t and none of the labeled are the player reset. I have 2 identified from manually triggering them that do nothing that I can tell.

Quoted from Mopar:Do the Relays have labels? If so, with the machine turned on, find which one
is labeled "Player Reset Relay, and manually push it in and see if it stays
energized on its own until the Score Motor stops.
Edit: On 2nd thought, I'm thinking the Player Reset Relay may not energize the Score Motor
when pushed in. If you can manually step up the Ball Count Unit (it should be labeled), and
see if the Player Reset Relay (should be labeled) energizes when it's all the way pushed in.

#10 3 months ago

Ok so when I advance the ball count plunger a relay clicks. I’ve identified it. It has the orange red wires and yellow you mentioned. So where do I proceed from here now?

Quoted from MarkG:The Player Reset relay will have a black wire (like most other relays) on one coil solder lug and an orange-red wire on the other coil solder lug.
Try manually advancing your Ball Count Unit by pushing in the plunger for the advance solenoid. If you hear a relay click when you advance the Ball Count unit it's probably the Player Reset relay. If not, have a close look at you Ball Count unit. The advance solenoid plunger should pull on a pivoting arm that advances the Ball Count wiper disk one step when the plunger is released. (The other solenoid will reset the Ball Count back to zero and isn't what you're looking for.) On one end of the pivoting arm there is probably a normally open switch that closes when the advance solenoid plunger pulls on the pivoting arm. That switch is what fires the Player Reset relay. It should have an orange-red wire on one switch leaf (same wire as on the Player Reset relay coil solder lug) and a yellow wire on the other switch leaf.

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#11 3 months ago

When I manually advance the ball count unit, it does trigger this relay I added a picture of. But nothing else happens....

Quoted from Mopar:Do the Relays have labels? If so, with the machine turned on, find which one
is labeled "Player Reset Relay, and manually push it in and see if it stays
energized on its own until the Score Motor stops.
Edit: On 2nd thought, I'm thinking the Player Reset Relay may not energize the Score Motor
when pushed in. If you can manually step up the Ball Count Unit (it should be labeled), and
see if the Player Reset Relay (should be labeled) energizes when it's all the way pushed in.

#12 3 months ago

So you've established that the Player Reset relay fires when it should. Now you should check the switches in the circuit that ArgosySK shared in reply #4.

#13 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

When I manually advance the ball count unit, it does trigger this relay I added a picture of.

Okay, I'd like to add that the Ball Count Unit does step up, so that tells us that the set of contacts
in the Outhole Relay, Extra Ball Relay, and Ball Index Relay are doing their job. Also the Ball Count
Unit's EOS switch is doing its job energizing the Player Reset Relay. So if the Player Reset Relay is
energizing, yet the Player Up Reset Coil doesn't, I'd maybe clean the contacts in the Player Reset Relay.
The relay that energizes when you manually step up the larger coil on the Ball Count Unit. There's
a set containing 3 contacts in that Relay. That set of 3 is known as make/break switches. The center switch
is making contact with either one of the outside switches, or the other. You can lightly sand them all, but
it's the set of switches in the make/break (when the player Reset Relay in energized) that has a good
chance of being the issue..

#14 3 months ago

Mopar MarkG ArgosySK ok, sorry it’s taken some time to get around to testing theories. So here is what I have done first I lightly sanded every contact in the game. After playing around, on the player reset relay specifically. It fires as it should when it should. Nothing happens but when I jumper it from the first set of switches which is a make break, to the second switch which is a normally open switch. I am doing this which the solenoid energized which then makes the second set of switches closed voila the player will reset to player 1. Now my noob question is: how do I fix this? The points are making contact, they are all clean and touch when they should when it’s energized but the electricity is not making it where it needs to go? Also all the solders are tight and protected with plastic shrouds. I appreciate everyone’s help! Pictures of the switch in its different states 1st pic the switch not energized, 2nd pic energized, 3rd pic is where if I am jumpering/shorting it with a screw driver it activates the player up disc back to player 1. I took the third pic without it energized as I simply don’t have enough hands.

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#15 3 months ago

Just to add to this. If I leave it with a jumper between these two, the game will not switch out of player 1.....

#16 3 months ago

Sounds like the player reset relay is working. But not activating

Check MarkG 1st post. If you short/jumper the end of stroke switch on the ball count does the player reset relay pull?

#17 3 months ago

ArgosySK thanks, yes when the eos is activated the coil on the player reset relay also activates it was doing that before I shorted the switches to get it to activate the reset coil on the player up disc though

#18 3 months ago

not sure if this helps, but i've personally found that just because a switch pair looks to be making contact when closed doesn't mean it is.
regardless of cleaning and visual inspection.

to be sure i'd personally be using a mutimeter set on continuity attached to the solder tabs in question, then manually close any suspect switch.

i've had in the past where it drove me nuts where a closed switch wouldn't give me zero ohms resistance, it turned out the solder tab had broken but was held in place by the spacers, so it wasn't evident until i pulled the switch stack apart.

#19 3 months ago

Okay, the Ball Count Step Up EOS switch is doing it's job energizing the Player Reset Relay,
but perhaps the Player Reset Relay isn't holding in for it's proper length of time. If that's the
case, it would maybe indicate that a switch off the Score Motor's cam isn't making properly
when the Ball Count energizes closing its EOS switch. I don't think I have an Amigo schematics,
but I believe maybe it's a make/break switch on the Score Motor's cam and maybe off of cam 1.
When the score motor's at rest, that make/break would be open..

#20 3 months ago

Rikoshay i actually did do continuity testing but suffice to say it was brief. I’ll be sure to do some more testing this way tomorrow and hopefully get back to you thanks for the tip and I’ll explore this rabbit hole for sure!
Mopar great suggestion as I have admitted to I am terrible with schematics and that score motor cam looks to be a treacherous thing. I will try to identify this switch on cam 1 tomorrow as well and explore it hopefully getting back to you tomorrow! Thanks again for everything!

#21 3 months ago

Oh, I now noticed that you have the Player Reset Relay's circuitry in one of the above post.
It's not a make/break switch. It's a set of switches that's open on the Score Motor's Cam 1A
when the Score Motor is at rest. A good chance that set of contacts needs cleaning/adjusting.

#22 3 months ago

Mopar Here is a picture of score motor cam in test position and then when the cam is rotating. Do you see any issues? I haven’t continuity tested it yet.

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#23 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

I haven’t continuity tested it yet.

Beware that measuring continuity across a switch can be misleading. Measuring and understanding the resistance should be more reliable. See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fan-tas-tic-spinner-won-t-stop#post-5531247.

#24 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

Here is a picture of score motor cam in test position and then when the cam is rotating.

That's the proper cam, and I don't notice any issues except perhaps the switch stack screws maybe
could use a little tightening..
I'm not 100%, but I think it's the bottom set of contacts in that stack that hold and break the
Player Reset Relay. You'll want to clean that set of switches and make sure they're making good
connection when the cam is in its rotating motion..
If you fire up the machine with the playfield is up, then manually make a few points for the 1st
Player, then under the playfield manually make the outhole contacts (the contacts where the
ball rest when it drains), and then while the Score Motor is rotating, check if the Player Reset
Relay pulses in and releases, or pulses in and holds for around a full second. It should hold if
that Score Motor switch on Cam 1 is doing it's job..
Edit: Forgot to mention. Even if only playing 1 Player, the Player Reset Relay should energize
after the ball drains..

#25 3 months ago

Mopar alright so when I manually make the cam do it’s rotation the player reset relay is not being activated by that process. There is one wire I can see that is present on the player reset relay and also in the stack of switches in that stack on cam position 1 it’s a blue with orange stripes.

#26 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

alright so when I manually make the cam do it’s rotation the player reset relay is not being activated by that process. There is one wire I can see that is present on the player reset relay and also in the stack of switches in that stack on cam position 1 it’s a blue with orange stripes.

Yes, the schematics shows the blue/orange wire on that cam switch. Remember, when you're checking
if the Player Reset Relay energizes when the motor is turning, you need to energize the Outhole Relay.
The easiest way is to manually have the outhole switch (that's the switch that the ball will rest on and make
contact when the ball is in the drain position) make contact as the Score Motor turns, and then watching
if the Player Rest energizes. The Player Reset has to be energizing for at least a split second because
the Ball Count energizes when the ball is drained, and when you manually energized the Ball Count
Unit, the Player Reset Relay energizes. So you'll want to energize the Outhole Relay with the Outhole
Switch which will automatically run the Score Motor and then check if the Player Reset Relay energizes for
a full second or so, or if it just quickly pulls in and then back out..

#27 3 months ago

Mopar ok I reinstalled and plugged in the play field. I hit the ball drain out hole hole. It triggered the cam which did trigger the player reset relay for a second or so. I did a quick 2 player run through by manually hitting targets and the outhole. Player one end. Player 2 up no problem, player 2 end went to player 2 ball 2, reset relay was triggered just didn’t reset to player 1, then after another manual point and manual outhole it did go to player 1 ball 3. It has done this a few times since this issue presented. So I am just confounded and confused. What should I be lookin go at? Seems like a broken wire or solder but they all appear tight.....ugh

#28 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

then after another manual point and manual outhole it did go to player 1 ball 3.

Okay, so when it did work properly, the Player Reset Relay remained energized the same
amount of time as when it didn't work properly, right? It didn't stay in a little longer. Just asking
to make sure the 1A motor switch is doing its job consistently..
Did you make sure the switch stack screws were tighten on the Player Reset Relay? You did clean
that Player Reset Relay's make/break switches. When the Player Rest Relay energizes, that make/break
transfers the circuit from the Player Step Up, to the Player Unit's Reset. You may want to try closing that
make/break a little tighter by slightly bending the lower blade of the make/break upward so that it's
closer to the center blade. Of course you don't want to bent it so much that when energized, the center
blade doesn't break away from the top blade.
As I'm sure you know, you never want all 3 blades touching at the same time..

#29 3 months ago

Mopar sorry it’s taken some time getting back. On the cam I thoroughly cleaned each contact and tightened the switch stacks. On the player reset relay I also cleaned the contacts and verified contact is being made (visually) and I tightened the screws holding the stacks there as well, while testing the game actually swapped back to player 1 after player 2 ball drain, but then for ball 3 reverted back to the original skipped player 1 and continued to ball 3 player 2. Then has since gone to its original form only switched back once. Any ideas where to go from here? The player reset relay btw it grabs and holds for a solid second or 2 so I feel that’s all doing it’s job correctly. Is there a switch somewhere that sends the power pulse through the closed switches on the player reset relay when it’s activated that maybe is not sending the power pulse to activate that reset solenoid? Hopefully that makes sense? I am asking because the shirt I did that does make it operate is merely sending a power pulse so I guess it seems like everything’s working but somewhere that power pulse is not make it’s way to the solenoid to activate it.

#30 3 months ago

I would recommend making this contact just a smidge closer to see it it helps. (the gray wire on the player reset switch)

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#31 3 months ago

ArgosySK ok, so I thought it was making good contact, but I gave it the slightest bend and that fixed the issue!

However no good deed goes unpunished.....immediately after 2 new seemingly unrelated issues popped up.....

First and biggest issue....now when I reset the game, the normal reset sequence goes into affect. However now the reset relay for the right side of the game, players 2 and 4. That relay pulses in and holds instead of pulsing and releasing to reset all the score reels on that side of the game. Any thoughts here? It’s score reset #2 pictured below.

2nd issue player 4’s scoring is off...seems to be every 3rd 1000 pt target hit the score reels adds 10,000 points but it’s not reliably every 3rd target....oh my what a mess. Any help as always I appreciate everyone’s hard work and thoughts!

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#32 3 months ago

As an edit if I use a screwdriver and manually break the contact on the #2 relay and force it to pulse that does reset the game to all zeros and the reset sequence stops.

#33 3 months ago

Player four scoring 10,000 when scoring 1000 pt
Sounds like the Player four 1000 pt score reel switch need to be adjusted. The 9th position switch needs the gap increased.
http://pinballaustralia.com/ballyreel.htm
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#34 3 months ago

#2 score Reset relay staying stuck on.

I would check this motor switch.

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#35 3 months ago

ArgosySK OMG! You are literally my hero! That link helped immensely! That was exactly where that problem was! Thanks a literal billion!

Now lol one last issue has popped up. No surprise I poked around but could seem to isolate where this one is either. Now when the ball lands in the 3k point kick out hole top center, it’s making a buzzing sound from the bonus step up disc beneath the play field but the scoring is erratic from just that hole. Sometimes 2k, sometimes 4K and generally 50% of the time it scores correctly at 3k same issue across all players. Any thoughts on where this one might be?

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#36 3 months ago

This one can be tricky.
The advance bonus relay control the 1000 pt scoring
The motor switch 9a should score 3 times while the hole relay is pulled.

There maybe a issue with the hole relay holding longer/shorter because of the motor switch at 10b.

Make sure the switch stacks are tight and these switches have the correct gap.

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#37 3 months ago

ArgosySK Resolved! Your the master! It was the gap on the 9a cam motor switch stack. Increased the gap and problem solved!

Now the last issue, the one I have actually had since the game first became functional as I have worked and learned on it across the years.....it’s very minor but hey why not get it 100% right?

So player 1 ball 1 whether in single player mode or 2,3, or 4 player. The initial 1k pt light on the bonus tree is not active (pictures below) the score reflects it too. Every other players ball 1 begins with the 1k bonus activated. (Also pictured below and I am pointing to the issue in both with the back glass visible for reference).

I am seriously so happy and so thankful for all your help!

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#38 3 months ago

So Player 1 ball 1 doesn't light. All other cases the light is lite and scoring is working.

Does the light work after a ball tilt?
Yes then check if the reset relay release before the Bonus zero relay release. (it should)

I would check the motor switch 2b (green) is open while 7c (Blue) is closed.

My guess is that the reset relay is resetting the bonus unit step up.

I added the schematic snippets for the bonus zero relay and the reset relay.

Bonus counts down to zero, bonus steps up one, then steps down again. (You could watch the bonus unit).
Capture 15 (resized).JPGpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image2 (resized).png

#39 3 months ago

ArgosySK assuming in my inexperience here that 7c would be the third leaf switch from the top of the stack? If so 2b is open and 7c is also open. I held 7c closed with a screwdriver during a reset sequence and it didn’t make any difference. Maybe I am not fully understanding?

#40 3 months ago

Sorry don't have the machine. Just looking at the schematic. (So I don't know where they are on the motor).
You will have to look at the wire colors.

If you start a game and tilt on ball one. Does ball 2 have the light lite or off? This will help pinpoint if the issue if the (off) motor switch or (on) the reset relay.

#41 3 months ago
Quoted from Jets_1479:

assuming in my inexperience here that 7c would be the third leaf switch from the top

I'll jump in for a second. Set "A"switches are on the bottom of the stacks, so 7c would be
the 3rd set of switches from the bottom..

#42 3 months ago

ArgosySK if I trigger a tilt on ball 1, then drain the ball outhole switch, it goes to ball2 and the 1k pt bonus is pre lit.

#43 3 months ago

Mopar tha is for the insight!

#44 3 months ago

ArgosySK so are we talking an issue with the main reset relay for the entire game or an issue with the reset relay for the bonus stepper unit? Any ideas to pinpoint?

#45 3 months ago

Thanks for the update.
So we know the following.
At end of ball the bonus unit reset works and score points and the bonus zero relay triggers the bonus unit step.
If you tilt the onus unit rest works and the the bonus zero relay trigger the bonus unit step up.

So the failure is restricted to the beginning of game set up managed by the reset Relay.

The Bonus does count down to zero on reset.

The question becomes does the "Bonus zero" relay fire at the beginning of a game?

If it does not look at this switch.

pasted_image (resized).png
#46 3 months ago

Hey does the outhole kick out before the bonus zero relay pulls?

#47 3 months ago

ArgosySK so unless I am eyeing it incorrectly the bonus stepper unit has completed its reset process and then the outhole kicks the ball as the last step. So the relay pulls completed its job then the ball is locked out

#48 3 months ago

so the bonus zero relay does not pull?

#49 3 months ago

Argos I believe it pulls, I am not entirely sure I am looking at the right thing? Is the relay on the stepper unit itself, or is it on the row of relays across the floor of the body? Identifying which one it is without labels has been difficult. The stepper unit completes all its click and then the ball kick out kicks the ball out.

#50 3 months ago

So I believe this is the bonus relay reset? If it is on start when the game resets this does not pull in during the start up sequence. It does pull in on ball 1 player 2 and illuminates the 1k pt light in question here. I hope this helps clear things up? Sorry I am still very much learning here...

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