(Topic ID: 234256)

Mousin : problem with motor


By jimy_speedt

9 months ago



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  • Latest reply 9 months ago by jimy_speedt
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#1 9 months ago

Hi,

On my Mousin Around, the target bank does not go up nor down. The motor does not work.

I have checked the Vac going to the motor. It is correct up to the relay board. The Vac should go thru from the relay board to the motor by the relay activation. This should be activated by the sol 11 transitor Q16 (and Q12) grounding.

When I switch on the machine and start a game, I measure 0Vdc on the brown-orange wire coming to the relay board, wheras the power wire measures 27vdc. I would have expected 27vdc on the brn-org, and when the CPU activates the bank, this wire should be grounded by the transistors and then trigger the relay. Am I right ?

I have checked both Q16 and Q12, they are good. The connector 1P12-4 is 0 vdc. R42 is good and SR5 seems to be consistent with Sr7 although I do not measure on either the expected 2.7kohm. Must be due to the other components on the same track.

Can someone confirm to me that 27vdc is expected at game start on the brn-orn wire ? What can I look at next please ? Can U18 be the culprit ? I presume the relay is out as well if the voltage was continuously applied.

Thanks

#2 9 months ago

Hi. Yes you should have 27VDC at the brown-orange wire. This is coming from the red wire through the relay coil,and the 27VDC should be present all the way to the driving transistor.

Since you don't see the 27VDC on this side of the relay, you have a problem right at the relay board. Could be an open coil, broken through hole lead under the relay for the relay coil, broken through hole pin on two pin connector for the relay coil, burned or open trace, or failed wire crimp connector. Removing the board and examining with an ohmmeter should quickly identify the fault.

#3 9 months ago

Hi Wayout,

Thanks for helping me again I appreciate much.

According to you, the problem comes from the relay board.

But, sorry for my naive question, the 27vdc cannot be measured on the CPU. How could the relay be the place of the problem, as earlier the voltage is not present ?

Thanks again

#4 9 months ago
Quoted from jimy_speedt:

Hi Wayout,
Thanks for helping me again I appreciate much.
According to you, the problem comes from the relay board.
But, sorry for my naive question, the 27vdc cannot be measured on the CPU. How could the relay be the place of the problem, as earlier the voltage is not present ?
Thanks again

Maybe this visual will help you understand better. In a correctly working pin on the left, the collector of the transistor "switch" will have the source voltage of the solenoid present. This source voltage is present along the entire circuit. When the transistor switch is operated, current begins to flow . In the defective circuit on the right, there is no voltage at the collector of the transistor. Therefore, if even if the transistor driver circuit is operational, there is nothing for the transistor to switch, so no current flows. The driving transistor at the CPU or driver board does not supply power, it PROVIDES ground when turned on.

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#5 9 months ago

Hi wayout. Thanks for the clarification

Here I am not talking about the Vac. There is a double circuit going through the relay board. The Vac, which makes the motor run, and the Vdc on the relay coil managed as a common solenoid. The Vdc switches the relay on and off, i.e. let the Vac through or not.

Maybe I am wrong but on a normal coil, the 50vdc is present on the 2 lugs of the coil at game start. As there is no voltage difference between the lugs the coil is not activated. When the drive side is grounded the current flows and the coil is energized.

Based on that, shouldn’t I measure 27vdc on both red and brn-orn wires at game start ? when the CPU wishes to energize the motor, it grounds the drive, the relay coil is activated, the Vac flows, the motor runs.

If I am right, I should measure 27vdc on the power And the Drive wires on the relay board at game start. It is not the case.

If I am wrong I miss something in the coil management.

Thanks again

#6 9 months ago

Thanks for the clear explanation.

Then I might have to replace the relay.

I ll first check the board as you suggest.

Just one more thing : because the voltage crosses the coil from the red to the brn-orn, when do I measure the exact same voltage on both lugs of thé coil, knowing that the coil itself has a resistance ? Thanks again

#7 9 months ago
Quoted from jimy_speedt:Thanks for the clear explanation.
Then I must replace the relay. Strange that the coil has broken with no damage on the transistors.

Your welcome. Not strange at all. The vibration stress on a machine can break all kinds of things. Mechanical relays generate internal mechanical stress. You might find cracked solder around the through hole pins underneath. You might unsolder the relay and see that a lead has broken off. If the relay was stuck on the coil could be damaged. And....you don't know for certain if there is a secondary problem or not until this first problem is resolved.

#8 9 months ago
Quoted from jimy_speedt:

Thanks for the clear explanation.
Then I might have to replace the relay.
I ll first check the board as you suggest.
Just one more thing : because the voltage crosses the coil from the red to the brn-orn, when do I measure the exact same voltage on both lugs of thé coil, knowing that the coil itself has a resistance ? Thanks again

When no current is flowing (circuit path is incomplete) both sides of a resistance will be the same voltage.

#9 9 months ago

I have measured the resistance between the 2 sides of the relay coil on the board. 756ohms.
When the game is switched on, I can mesure 35vdc on the red wire, and on one end of the coil. On the other end, I get only 0,04vdc. I guess the coil is the problem.

If I compute properly based on the features of the relay, 24v=30axR, R should 24/30 ohm. Is it correct ?

If the coil is no longer good, can I take any relay with the same spec ? I have seen that the exact same ref 5580-12145-00 is only available in Canada and very expensive.

For instance

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/4-Pcs-Omron-G8p1114p-cf-us-dc24-Relay-30a-24vdc/1079265221

#10 9 months ago

The relay coil resistance is high, but did you pull the relay board to check all those through hole connections? You would have near infinite (open) to come up with no supply voltage on that side of the relay when the motor control is not active.

#11 9 months ago

Yes, that relay and looks like the same shape part. It's a standard 24VDC relay, as long as footprint iand pinout is the same, . nothing else is special about it.

#12 9 months ago

Not certain to fully get your ppost.

I pulled the board, resoldered all points.

There is no Vac going thru. If I follow the track going from the connector/red wire to one end of the coil I get the 35vdc. On the other end, on the board,the point which is connected to the brn-orn wire has near to 0 vdc. The game is just on, the motor is not activated.

#13 9 months ago

When there is no competed circuit path, no current flow, resistance does not cause a voltage drop. It doesn't matter if the relay coil measures 10 ohms, 1000 ohms, or even 100,000 ohms. You should still see source voltage on both sides of the relay coil. Only an open circuit on the relay board will produce the symptoms you have described. This is basic electronics theory.

#14 9 months ago

Never been an electronic specialist, I was in finance

#15 9 months ago

Some people here have accomplished great repairs without electronics knowledge, and others have made the process more difficult or even damaged games.

I'm just one of the few here with formal electronics training and years of career electronics experience.

#16 9 months ago

Good to get valuable advices.

Here is the board, only the right side is relevant for the Vdc circuit.

I have continuity between the first connector pin at the right and the 2 solder points on the track. Same for the second pin. The diode check is ok.

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#17 9 months ago

That looks ok. You could assume the relay is bad, or you could go an extra step and use a test lead to jump the plus +27 (red wire) to the power pin #1. The coil trigger pin #2 should measure +27VDC. You could then ground pin #2 and listen for the click of the relay. Another step further, measure the output pins 1 to 6. They should be open (near infinite) resistance, and then change to low ohms when the relay is activated.

#18 9 months ago

I removed the relay and broke the plastic to get the "live" view. Interesting. In the meantime I have ordered new relays. Thank you

#19 9 months ago
Quoted from jimy_speedt:

Never been an electronic specialist, I was in finance

Finance explanation: you have a money transfer to an account that isn't there, where did the money go?
It should still be there, you just need to find the broken link.

#20 9 months ago

The board it self is ok, I made all checks. The only thing I ll check after having replaced the relay is the continuity of brn-orn. I ll give the outcome no worries

1 week later
#21 9 months ago

Hi,

I took some time but the relays have arrived this morning from Poland. The motor works, thanks for the help !!

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