(Topic ID: 242025)

Mousin Around - slowly powers itself down / back up.


By CharlesZ

23 days ago



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  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 hours ago by Nihonmasa
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#1 23 days ago

Hi all @ Pinside,
My 1989 System 11B #Mousin' Around! is experiencing weird power issues.
All is well initially upon power up but after being on in attract mode or being played for about an hour it starts to shut itself down.
The first obvious issue is that I slowly start losing digits on both displays. They fade away in pairs, both left and right, until only four, two on each side, are illuminated.
As the digits are fading from the displays I also start losing brightness to the controlled playfield lamps until they fade and go out. Only the controlled "millions" on the back insert and "mouse" on the playfield remain faintly lit. GI remains unaffected.
I lose power to the flippers, and eventually one of the three relays will start buzzing badly. This is usually when I turn it off.
It takes about 10 minutes for this power issue to eventually shut the machine down.
The CPU is running fine and I can start a game, but the solenoids slowly become weak and eventually stop working. For example, the coil becomes too weak to kick the ball into the shooting lane though it tries.
If I turn it back on I get five "bong" tones and only four digits on the displays. Only GI is illuminated. If I work my way through the menu in the blind I can usually get it to go into attract mode but there is only GI and a few digits on the display working.
Power supply voltage at the test points is correct, as well as 5V on the MPU test point.
I replaced all electrolytics on the power supply board and replaced 6BR1. I've checked every connector, fuse, reflowed pins, etc, to no avail.
I can usually turn it on in a day or two and all will be fine. Maybe. But within an hour it will go through the slow "power down" cycle again.
What the heck is going on???

#2 23 days ago

By the way, it sometimes powers itself up in reverse of what I outlined above. One of two things happens when I turn it on; it either works fine for about an hour, or it seems "dead" with only four digits alternating on the displays. Only GI visible. Slowly the missing display digits begin to emerge, one character per display at a time. The controlled lights on the play-field start to turn on and slowly become brighter, etc. The "C-H-E-E-S-E" lamps in the lower middle of the playfield are always the last to fully illuminate.
After about five/ten minutes of it "warming up" I can play a few games before it initiates it's slow shut down all over again.
Has anyone else out there ever experienced anything like this?

#3 17 days ago

Woah, that sounds crazy... The closest thing I've seen to that is a TSPP that would occasionally lose power to the solenoids, gradually over a few seconds. I don't think anyone ever figured out what was causing it though. I wouldn't know where to start looking with an issue like this, but I'll give this thread a bump and hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will see it.

#4 17 days ago

Have you watched the voltage at the power supply and the board when this happens? I'd start by hooking up some clips to the various test points, let the game run, and see if anything starts to drop after a time period. If you're losing displays, coils, lights, etc. you probably have more going on than losing just 5 volts. Any chance you have another power supply you can swap in?

#5 17 days ago

Maybe the capacitors are dried up and not keeping up...
Would love to see a video of this happening and let others more experienced see it to give a better diagnosis.
-Mike

#6 17 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Maybe the capacitors are dried up and not keeping up...
Would love to see a video of this happening and let others more experienced see it to give a better diagnosis.
-Mike

I agree it's something with the capacitors - or heat related to connectors. Try reseating all the connectors and seeing if it the behavior changes (that way you know it's time to replace them, as well.... start with any that go directly to the transformer.)

#7 17 days ago

Thanks for all of the replies.

The +5 is a steady +4.9 at the cpu test point throughout. I replaced all power supply electolytics as well as two electrolytics on the driver board. I replaced 6BR1 as it provides the controlled lamp voltage but that didn't help. I replaced the relay on the driver board as well because it would buzz as the power slowly dropped but that didn't solve the problem either.

I reseated all connectors quite a few times as well as all chips on the MPU board that could be reset. No permanent fix.

What's really confusing is not only that it does this weird power down thing, but it also does it in reverse after I turn it on after letting it sit for a day - it slowly powers itself back up. Display characters slowly start appearing, along with the controlled lamps,flippers, etc.

First display characters start appearing, then the controlled lamps. The "CHEESE" circle on the lower playfield is always the last of the controlled lights to come back on and the first to go out.

Voltages at the power supply board are always good, whether the machine is up and running or in it's "powered down" mode.

I do have videos of the machine going through the process. The process from fully working to dying or coming back to life takes over 10 minutes so they are huge files (shot on my iphone 7). I have shorter ones too but they only show parts of the process.

Does Pinside host videos, or do I have to post them somewhere else and post a link here? I have a good video of the machine coming back to life, but it really just shows what I've described above.

-Charles

#8 17 days ago

OK, I tried to upload the last 4 minutes of my MA! powering itself back up.

https://vimeo.com/334767276

#9 17 days ago

I fixed the problem with lamp matrix row 5 today (replaced R123). Now all of the lamps work!

#10 17 days ago

I watched your video and can tell you this much. The flicker of lights is not normal.
If I leave a machine off for a long time(2 months) it will slowly power up just like you show.
Capacitors slowly discharge over time and if you have weak caps to begin with they will never gain or hold charge properly.
You have more digging to do to get to the bottom of this.
What condition is the auxiliary power board in?
-Mike

#11 16 days ago

Thanks Grizlyrig. I replaced all electrolytics on the PS board when this problem first presented itself and the two filter caps on the aux PS board with no change. I also replaced the relay on the aux board to no avail along with 6BR1 on the backbox.
I have not changed any electrolytics on the MPU board. (C24,26, 29) for example, all 100uf/25v. Do those usually cause trouble?
HOWEVER, I may be on to something.
I dug around PINSIDE and found a post "System 11 Power Issues" from two years ago (OP is futurepinhead ) where the OP's #big guns was having similar though not exactly the same issue.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/system-11-power-issues
Ultimately he sent the MPU board to chrishibler who apparently replaced C30, C57, C58, and Q50. The thread then ended, so I imagine the issue was resolved.
I don't have the caps but I do have Q50, a 2N4403. I'll replace it later today and see about at least ordering C30 which is a small electrolytic on the MPU board (22 uf/10v).
-Charles

#12 16 days ago

Ultimately he sent the MPU board to chrishibler who apparently replaced C30, C57, C58, and Q50. The thread then ended, so I imagine the issue was resolved.

chrishibler has a very good name in board repair and I have watched quite a few of his youtube videos and like his setup.

I say replace those caps as its cheap and try again to further diagnose. Worst case you send the board out to someone more experienced.
-Mike

#13 16 days ago

OK - I replaced Q50 and immediately I can see the pinball is better.
It still will sometimes "power up" slowly when the machine is turned on after being off for a while but it only takes a few minutes for all of the digits on the displays to come on. The machine is then fully playable.
It no longer shuts itself down during gameplay or attract mode which is huge.
I've ordered C30 and will install it when it arrives, but replacing Q50 has made a difference for the positive already.
-Charles

#14 14 days ago

Still waiting for C30 to come in the mail, so no update there.

I've posted a full 30 minute video showing the moment I hit the switch to when the game becomes fully powered up and ready to go with all displays, flippers, and controlled lamps working.

What would cause the power to be distributed like this when powered up?

The game boots into attract mode but is basically dead. SLOWLY power is distributed to the displays, the left playfield controlled lamps and backbox "millions" lamps, the right playfield controlled lamps, the backbox bonus ladder lamps, and finally the lower playfield controlled lamps. The CHEESE insert lamps are always the last to light. It always follows this exact methodology. It's as if the game is being powered up with a Variac and distributed as stated above.

About 1:00 minute in I start to go through the audit and adjust options to ensure the game is in attract mode since it's hard to tell. You can see the four digits changing and the five "bongs" indicating the cpu is running as I try to work through the menu screen basically in the blind. The four digits that do appear on the displays say "Free Play Press Start". I go through the tests a few times and little but the sounds work.

At about six minutes in I power cycle the game to ensure it's in attract mode.

It used to power up this way AND power down this way during game play or attract mode but replacing Q50 seems to have stopped the powering down aspect. I can leave the game on all day (12 hours or more) and it will be fine. Turn it off overnight and it has to "warm up".

I've had the game for 10 years and this only started to happen recently. It hadn't been played for about a year but remained in our living room unmoved.

- Charles

#15 13 days ago

Maybe a dumb question, but is a full 120 VAC coming out of the outlet that mouser is plugged into ?

Quoted from CharlesZ:

Still waiting for C30 to come in the mail, so no update there.
I've posted a full 30 minute video showing the moment I hit the switch to when the game becomes fully powered up and ready to go with all displays, flippers, and controlled lamps working.

What would cause the power to be distributed like this when powered up?
The game boots into attract mode but is basically dead. SLOWLY power is distributed to the displays, the left playfield controlled lamps and backbox "millions" lamps, the right playfield controlled lamps, the backbox bonus ladder lamps, and finally the lower playfield controlled lamps. The CHEESE insert lamps are always the last to light. It always follows this exact methodology. It's as if the game is being powered up with a Variac and distributed as stated above.
About 1:00 minute in I start to go through the audit and adjust options to ensure the game is in attract mode since it's hard to tell. You can see the four digits changing and the five "bongs" indicating the cpu is running as I try to work through the menu screen basically in the blind. The four digits that do appear on the displays say "Free Play Press Start". I go through the tests a few times and little but the sounds work.
At about six minutes in I power cycle the game to ensure it's in attract mode.
It used to power up this way AND power down this way during game play or attract mode but replacing Q50 seems to have stopped the powering down aspect. I can leave the game on all day (12 hours or more) and it will be fine. Turn it off overnight and it has to "warm up".
I've had the game for 10 years and this only started to happen recently. It hadn't been played for about a year but remained in our living room unmoved.
- Charles

#16 13 days ago

Good question. I tested that out a few days ago by running an extension cord to a different outlet on a different circuit. Same problem. Plus that game has been in that same spot for 10 years next to other games that are working. The parts I had ordered came in today. I’ll try to change the caps I ordered and see if anything changes and get back to everyone.

#17 9 days ago

Replacing C30 did not have an impact. The game takes up to a half hour to warm up before you can play. Still looking for suggestions.

#18 7 days ago

Yesterday it took two hours for the machine to warm up so it could be played. All voltages I checked are fine, at the power supply board at the CPU board and at the interconnect board. Also the voltages to the display boards are correct. It boots up when turned on and goes into attract mode but only G.I. and a few digits on the display are lit. You can start a game but nothing works. After it warms up it plays great. It’s starting to take longer to warm up. I’m starting to think there is a chip on the MPU board causing this problem. I have a logic probe and oscilloscope and I’m not afraid to use them. LOL. Anyone want to help me fix this? Thank you.

#19 7 days ago

Not to sound like a broken record here but have you hooked your meter up to the various test points on the power supply to see what the voltage is at boot and as it warms up? I would think you have an issue at the power supply or somewhere prior.

#20 7 days ago

Yes I have. Those voltages are good and remain the same during the warm-up. The CPU board is getting a solid 5 V as well. I even checked voltages at the interconnect board as well as the displays themselves and the voltages are all good. For example I have 100 V and 5 V at both displays even though each will only show two characters when the game is turned on. The game is being provided 119 V AC. I get the same voltage when checking at the service plug inside the box. Totally rebuilt the power supply. Replaced caps everywhere, including four on the Mpu brd. I replaced all the bridge rectifiers with known good brand new ones with no affect. She boots up and goes into a track mode when you turn her on but there are no controlled lights and only partial display. You can start a game but there are no controlled lights no flippers no bumpers and only two characters on the displays even told all voltages are good. The on board CPU self test comes back good. I think I have a logic problem not a power problem.

#21 7 days ago

You don't have a logic issue, the logic circuits in a System 11 game operate in an on or off fashion: either a lamp transistor is on or it is not, either a solenoid is firing or is it not, either display segments are lit or they are not, etc. I actually think you have a current supply issue, not a voltage issue. You're losing your 18v power for the lamp matrix, your 25v power for the low power solenoids, your +/-100v power for your displays, but not your 5v logic power.

Connect a Kill-A-Watt to the the game and monitor the power usage as it warms up. If the power consumption goes up but all your voltages are always good, then you have a current supply issue. If this is the case, there is possibly a heat related problem either in the AC cabinet wiring or the transformer itself. I suspect the AC side of things since so many generally unrelated circuits are affected. There are connectors in the cabinet for the transformer, did you check and re-seat all of those?

#22 7 days ago

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I disconnected those Molex connectors leading to and from the transformer and cleaned them and reconnected them. I agree there is a current problem. Today I checked at the displays themselves. Full voltage is getting to both displays, Both the high voltage on pin one and the 5 V on pin five yet they are not displaying all the characters. I do have a kill a watt and will
hook it up and observe it.

#23 7 days ago

Question. The power cord goes to an aluminum box inside the cabinet. The wiring inside the box connects to a line conditioner and then exits the other side. Did those line conditioners go bad? I could try to bypass it tomorrow.

#24 7 days ago

Have you tried measuring the voltage of the service outlet in the game when you are experiencing these issues? that may help diagnose if the filter box is causing a voltage drop.

#25 7 days ago

Yes I did and it was the same as the voltage coming out of the wall. About 119v. I also checked the 8 a fuse and it’s good.

#26 6 days ago

Technically you don't need a line filter according to this thread, if you want to bypass it and try then go ahead.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/machine-dead-due-to-line-filter

#27 6 days ago

Thanks Crash. I'll def check that out this evening or tomorrow.

I took some transformer readings this afternoon. I have 119v coming from the wall going into the transformer.

I disconnected the Molex connector connecting the wires exiting the secondary of the transformer and obtained the following "no load" readings:

Pins/measured value/per manual:
1-2/93 vac/88.3 vac
3-5/10.5 vac/9.7 vac
4-5/10.5 vac/9.7 vac
6-7/29 vac/26 vac
9-10/14.4 vac/13.5 vac
11-12/55 vac/ 48 vac

Other readings:

Power supply voltages:

+12v is measured at +12.05v
+5 is measured at +5.02v
-12v is measured at -13.92v

CPU board:
+5v is measured at +4.98v with ref to the ground TP on the CPU brd.

Voltage readings at the two displays power inputs:

Left display:
Pin 1 to Pin 5: -107v
Pin 3 to Pin 5: +103v
Pin 6 to Pin 5: +5.02

Right display:
Pin 1 to Pin 5: -107v
Pin 3 to Pin 5: +103v
Pin 6 to Pin 5: +5.02v (same as for the left display) Keep in mind the displays are not working properly and only showing two digits until the machine "warms up" which it's taking longer and longer to do.

I've checked other voltages as well but here's the point: I cannot find an "out of range" voltage anywhere.

I hooked up a Kill-A-Watt. The machine is drawing 1A in attract mode and doesn't vary while going though the menus. The KILL A Watt confirms 119v/60hz at the outlet.

I will leave it on and observe the KILL-A-Watt and see if anything changes over the next few hours. The machine is in "attract" mode but is "dead" for all intents and purposes. Two digits are on the displays, no special solenoids, no controlled lights, etc. Just G.I. You can start a game but there is no point as nothing works. I'll try bypassing the line conditioner and report back.

- Charles

#28 6 days ago

I jumpered around the line conditioner and there is no change...

#29 6 days ago

This mouse has me baffled. Wish Vid1900 was around, he's good at this trivial stuff.
-Mike

#30 6 days ago

If you suspect this may be heat related try taking readings from the various chips using a digital thermometer ( https://www.harborfreight.com/121-infrared-laser-thermometer-63985.html?_br_psugg_q=thermometer ) while the game is operating properly and compare those to readings taken while it's malfunctioning.

Possibly use a hair dryer or heat gun (carefully!) to see if you can induce a heat related problem.

Freeze spray is an option but I'd be wary of using it while the game is plugged in. May be ok if the game is powered off during the malfunction, then sprayed. Give it time to evaporate if you try it.

#31 6 days ago

Can we get some close up pics of the boards in the head. Maybe someone will see something wrong and get this running right.
-Mike

#32 6 days ago
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#33 6 days ago

F2 and F3 have fusible resistors, which limits the current.
Shouldn't they be 1/8 amp slow blow fuses.
-Mike

Screenshot_2019-05-18-19-34-49 (resized).png
#34 6 days ago

I’m not home right now but I remember changing them recently. They were marked 1/8 amp slow blow. I hope it’s as easy as something like this!

#35 6 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

F2 and F3 have fusible resistors,

Are you looking at the Aux pwr dvr board, W4 & W6? F2 & F3 (last picture) on the pwr sup board are slow-blo fuses.

#36 6 days ago

Those fusible resistors are in the circuit for the displays.

#37 6 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Are you looking at the Aux pwr dvr board, W4 & W6? F2 & F3 (last picture) on the pwr sup board are slow-blo fuses.

These fuses should be slow blow fuses, I see resistors in them which means they are current limiting. Right?
-Mike

Screenshot_2019-05-19-04-00-16 (resized).png
#38 5 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

resistors in them which means they are current limiting. Right?

They do look different than other slo-blow I've seen. Photos of others suggest it may be a dual element design. I don't find that unusual though since the purpose of a fuse is to limit the current to the listed amperage rating. 1/8th of an amp is pretty tiny, the typical wound wire design probably doesn't go that low.

Good eye for catching that! Made me go look some stuff up to see what it was. More learning, yay! One of the fun things about Pinside.

#39 5 days ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

They do look different than other slo-blow I've seen.

Look at this. 1/8 amp slow blow fuse.
-Mike

Screenshot_2019-05-19-09-57-44 (resized).png
#40 5 days ago

Nevermind.

#41 5 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Look at this. 1/8 amp slow blow fuse.

And another example:

FuseExample (resized).jpg
A photo of my identical board from Earthshaker.

IMAG1514.jpg
#42 5 days ago

Thanks for all of the input. Unfortunately changing those two fuses to a more standard 1/8 amp 250 V fuse did not change the problem. I measured the fuses with the resistors at approximately 30 ohms each. The ones I replaced them with were 11 ohms so there is some difference there but not enough to make a difference in my machine.

3E249131-FB2E-4347-B8F1-850946E4830A (resized).jpeg
#43 5 days ago

It took over two hours for the machine to fully power up this afternoon. The issue is getting worse.

The power-up process seems to follow the following order as best as I can determine. Maybe examining the order the lamps come on will give us a clue as to what's causing this to happen in the first place.

Upon turning the machine on, there are only four total digits lit on the right and left displays. There is G.I.. The machine goes into attract mode. You can start a game, sounds and music works, but the game is essentially "dead" as a ball won't kick into the shooting lane, the flippers don't work, etc.

then, after a while,

-"Build jackpot", "MILLION" lamps come on dimly.
-"MOUSE" lamps on left of playfield come on dimly.
- top three rollover lamps come on dimly.
-display digits 5,6, and 13,14 come on both left and right display in addition to the four already on upon power-up.

then after a while,

- backbox bonus ladder lamps come on.

then after a while,

-"TRAP", "Playfield scores are doubled" lamps come on slowly.

then, after a while,

- "1-2-3" lamps under center target come on slowly.

then, after a while,

- "Extra Ball", digits 2 and 10 on both displays come on slowly.

then, after a while,

- the rest of the controlled lamps one on slowly except "CHEESE" inserts, left and right ramp lamps (3 each side), and "2X" and "3X" lamps.

then, after a while,

-digits 3 and 11 on both displays slowly come on.

then, after a while,

- amber insert lamp behind right trap comes on slowly.

then, after a while,

- the left and right ramp lamps with the arrow inserts, three on each ramp, slowly come on.

then, after a while,

- "CHEESE" insert lamps on lower playfield slowly come on.

then, after a while,

- "2X" and "3X" lamps come on slowly.

then, finally, after a while,

- the final digits, 4 and 12 on each display, come on.

This took over two hours today! If light travels at 186,000 miles/sec, what could be the causing the power to s-l-o-w-l-y be distributed around the game?

Thanks for every one's help so far.

- Charles

#44 5 days ago

Did you make a note of power consumption when you turned it on and two hours later?

#45 5 days ago
Quoted from CharlesZ:

light travels at 186,000 miles/sec,

In a vacuum. Electrons propagating through a wire don't travel at light speed anyway.

Got a logic probe? Oscilloscope? Might provide some clues if you take readings from the processor during attract mode or a known game state. Compare working readings to non-working.
Have any other main CPU boards to swap, see if the problem moves with the board?

#46 5 days ago

I have three other system 11 games. A High Speed a Swords of Fury and a Diner. I will experiment with swapping boards this week to isolate the problem.

I was checking fuses this afternoon when I flipped the game on and saw some control lights come on. I did not have it hooked up to the kill a watt or any other test equipment but when I have checked voltages in the past they remained the same as the system powers up

I am unable to work on the game the rest of this evening but will work on it again tomorrow and report back. Thanks for everyone’s input.

#47 5 days ago
Quoted from CharlesZ:

Thanks for all of the input. Unfortunately changing those two fuses to a more standard 1/8 amp 250 V fuse did not change the problem. I measured the fuses with the resistors at approximately 30 ohms each. The ones I replaced them with were 11 ohms so there is some difference there but not enough to make a difference in my machine.
[quoted image]

Top fuses are typical Littelfuse brand 0313.125 fuses (slow, 1/8Amp). They control the 'cold' resistance with these and are set at 30 ohms for the 1/8 amp fuse, these tend to handle vibration a bit better. So the top ones are fine.
Lower two fuses are typical of Bussman or Belfuse (both with typical cold resistance of about 12 ohms).
Any of these would be fine.

The MDQ's (Dual element fuses) would also work. The Dual elements provide fast short circuit protection and better survival ability for temporary overloads - but these tend to cost considerably more.

The fuses with the three solder 'dots' are typical of cheap Chinese fuses, I avoid those.

#48 5 days ago

Do you have a laser thermometer? If so I would check all bridge rectifiers to see if temperature changes as the game warms up or shuts down. See if you can find a correlation between the amount of functionality you have and the amount of heat the rectifiers are putting out. There are rectifiers bolted to the grounding plane in the backbox. If they are not getting good thermal conductivity to the plane, they may be overheating which could affect how much DC wattage they can supply. This is the only other component I can think of that could explain a heat related issue upstream if it is not the transformer itself.

#49 5 days ago

Thanks Crash. I dont have a laser thermometer but i have changed all bridges to new 400v versions. The brs I removed all tested ok.

It always “warms up” the same way. But it now takes much longer. For two days it wouldnt warm up at all but today it did and I played a few games.

Ill look into getting that thermometer. Keep the ideas coming.

#50 5 days ago

It’s a long shot but have you tried changing out the big gray capacitor?

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