(Topic ID: 183199)

Tecnoplay Scramble unable to add players or start multiball! SOLVED!!!!

By CaptainNeo

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 149 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by CaptainNeo
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

1l4h3a (resized).jpg
comparison board (resized).jpg
close up of working scramble MPU TP7 (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).JPG
working scramble boards (4) (resized).jpg
Zaccaria_MPUa.jpg

Topic index (key posts)

3 key posts have been marked in this topic

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #124 Photo shows TP7. Soldering this fixed the problem. Posted by CaptainNeo (7 years ago)

Post #134 Resolution: solder TP7 pads together. Posted by CaptainNeo (7 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider CaptainNeo.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#1 7 years ago

Looking for ideas here. I have one of the craziest and most difficult issue, I have ever seen. None of it makes any sense.

Problem:

Game resets when 3 events happen.
1. You try to add more than one player
2. You go past setting 5 in diagnostics/audits/settings
3. You lock 2 balls and hit one of the 2 entry switches that starts multiball

Here's what i've done:

Aquired images of the ROMs from a known working game
Swapped CPU boards
Swapped Driver boards
Disconnected the sound board
Swapped Ribbon cable between CPU and driver board
ran switch and coil tests extensively.
Tested all diodes

When the watchdog circuit is overridden after the game is powered up. Everything works like it should. You can add mutiple players, you can start multiball, you can do all the audits, diagnostics and settings. This worked with both CPU boards which was tested and fully working. Also, i have recently tracked down a manual for this game (took awhile) and there are not alterations done to the Zaccaria Gen 2 boards. All standard boards except the sound board, which is special to this game. I thought for sure my ROMs were corrupt, so now I have no idea. Strangest problem i've ever encountered.

SOLVED!!!!!

turns out, that for this game. To compensate for shitty coding. They decided that the MPU board needed TP7 (watchdog override) to be jumpered. It has 2 pads for the same TP. Jumpering these 2 pads together, overides the watchdog circuit. Which this game needs to run properly. And doesn't say anywhere in the manual.

#2 7 years ago

btw, this is on a tecnoplay scramble, but it's a zaccaria when it comes down to it. All the same power supply, transformer and boards, (with the exception of the sound board)

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Is there a 5101 ram chip involved? If so, it could be flaky.

can't be the ram, the CPU was swapped entirely. All components swapped.

I can't disconnect the playfield without disconnecting the cabinet. Switch matrix for the start button is also on the playfield plugs.

This game has had this problem with me, and the previous owner as well. All he could do was swap CPU boards so he didnt' get that deep into it.

#8 7 years ago

I did not swap it, but I did check all the voltages going in and all the voltages going out. Everything is spot on. even under load.

#10 7 years ago

actually it reboots when I hit 5.

5 is the sound test.

then it goes to audits for 6,7,8,9 and 10 starts settings.

I've disconnected the sound board completely and problems are all still there, so has nothing to do with the sound board.

#11 7 years ago

also, I thought maybe the switch matrix was giving me a slam tilt. But this is a full reboot and much different than a slam tilt.

#15 7 years ago

I have swapped ribbon cables.

I have checked and double checked all my incoming voltages and outgoing out of the PS board. everything is spot on.

I'll swap out the PS board as I have plenty of games I can.

Just seems weird, that things like adding another player with the same button, or using the diagnostics switch on the 5th move, would cause that. I really don't think it's a switch matrix issue. Because the switch for diagnostics doesn't know the difference between 2 moves and 5 moves. Shouldn't effect it like that nor be so exact on when the reboot happen.

#18 7 years ago

it's not just switches to the coin door.

Start button is not part of that, nor is any of the switches that start or lock multiball.

And why would the diagnostics reset at the exact same point every time. So you hit diagnostics once to go into diagnostic. then first one goes into display test, 2nd goes into switch test, 3rd goes into lamps, 4th is coils, and 5th resets

#20 7 years ago

as for testing the switch matrix, i've done that with the diagnostics feature. Every switch tests normal. I've tried combos and everything else, and I could not get it to display any number besides the number it was suppose to be.

Don't forget there are 3 completely different situations that cause the same problem.

2 of which cause it, using the same switch, just triggering a different event.

adding a player, just hitting the start button twice
Diagnostics being hit on the 5th time
Multiball start (triggered by the top 2 entry lanes after 2 balls are locked)

the game works like F14. Lock a ball on each side. When you hit one of the 2 entry lanes, it automatically starts multiball, which kicks out both side balls at the same time. When you shoot any of those locks before lock is lit. It acknowledges the balls just fine. Kicks them out as normal, nothing out of the ordinary. You can hit them all day, play the game all day, with no problems. As long as you don't try to start multiball

#21 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

If you take an MPU that was tested in this game and install it into another known working game, does the board exhibit odd behavior, or is it fine?

board tested fine and worked 100%. Both boards do.

#23 7 years ago

I was thinking the same thing.

But the wiring short I kind of rule out because of

the start button works all day, as long as you don't try and add more than one player. (if it was a short, it wouldn't matter how many times you pushed the button)

diagnostics not letting you get past coil test. (again, switches dont' care what you are activating. if it's a short it would randomly screw up)

#24 7 years ago

and why would jumpering over the watchdog circuit, allow everything to work and play normal?

I played like 20 games in a row like that, multiple people, everything plays fine.

Dave has also stated from lenghty phone conversations we have had about this, that even a bad coil or switch, couldn't really bring down the system enough to cause a reset. Said the power supply and transformer are beefy enough, that it would take a massive amount to bring it down enough for a reset.

#27 7 years ago

that's what I thought too. Dave says you do not need a sound board for zac games to operate.

Basically the way sound works, is the CPU sends out the signal to the sound board. Whether or not the sound board is there. Sound boards do not send anything back to the CPU. Basically the sound goes to space. If the sound board picks it up it plays what it's told to.

That's why i did the sound disconnect troubleshoot. Which didn't help at all.

#29 7 years ago

how do I do that. the only reason I know how to bypass the watchdog is because dave worked with me step by step.

#31 7 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Is this your game being referred to in this thread?...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/needed-technical-info-on-scramble-tecnoplay?responsive=0
Sounds like they had a similar reset problem with a Technoplay "Scramble".

same game. That's who I got it from. he never figured it out. It's driving me nuts and i'm determined to get this solved.

#34 7 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Have you tried disconnecting the displays? Maybe there is one digit or segment that is activated in the reset scenarios and pulls down the +5V rail...

Actually, I just thought of that and did it about 30 min ago. Didn't help.

#35 7 years ago
Quoted from bangerjay:

Have you tried yelling at it?

and no I didn't, as I don't want to lower it's self esteem.

#41 7 years ago

but adding another player or being in diagnostics doesn't effect coils. And the game has no problems launching the balls out of the locks after it's game over.

As far as watchdog being flaky. I've ruled that out, as all the boards i've tried do the same thing.

I don't have a scope, so I won't be able to do any tests in those regards.

#45 7 years ago

the sound board has been eliminated as a cause. Sound board never sends info back to the CPU. No information heads back. CPU sends out a signal to what it should play. Then forgets about it.

Zacs do not have dip switches.

and I cannot jump watchdog all the time, because the game will not boot if I have watchdog bypassed before power on. I have to by pass after it's on.

#47 7 years ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Threads like this make me see what a dumbass know nothing I am when it comes to pinball repair...

situations like this, make us all feel dumb.

#49 7 years ago

i've been talking with the electrical zaccaria masters. They are stumped as well. :/

#52 7 years ago
Quoted from woz:

So how did you bypass the watchdog?

you ground TP4 on the CPU to ground on the PS board. I go off the lower part of the ceramic resistor by the big heat sink.

#53 7 years ago

i have to figure out the coin button as well as the credit button, because I have to add credits as well. This one is not on free play yet.

#55 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Is there a theory of operation guide available for gen 2 zacs?

this is from Daves site www.zaccaria-pinball.com

Use one of the floppy drive connections to supply Gnd to CN9 Pin 2 and +5V to Pin 4. When the power is turned on, there should be a delay of approximately one second, then the board should boot up and the LED should turn on. For testing, put a logic probe on TP8. You should see a HIGH signal when power is applied for the first second, then the signal should go LOW as the board boots and the LED comes on. Once the board is running, the test points can be probed with the logic probe to see if it is running correctly. The logic probe can also be applied to the switch matrix drive (columns) on CN10 to see if the switch matrix is being strobed. This is most useful in combination with Leon's test ROM for the 2nd generation CPU boards.

as far as what the CPU goes through upon startup.

#57 7 years ago

when it comes to zacs. david gersic and laszlo are the masters.

#60 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'd still put a brand new, fast, RAM chip in.
The Scramble might make a call to part of the RAM that the other game does not, and old RAMs get flaky.
I've got RAMs in my box that only crash in certain games, and RAMs that only crash after 10 minutes. They past the RAM tester no problem.
Make sure the new RAM is fast enough, not some borderline remark.

ram was changed out with the board swaps. I do have the new brinks RAM replacements that eliminate the battery. I'll try one of those. I really don't have much of an option at this point.

#61 7 years ago

Watchdog circuit and how it works:

Clock pulse hooked to counter IC14. CPU strobes the switch matrix at IC33. Each strobe hits RFSH, which resets the counter at IC14.

If IC14 overflows because it wasn't reset often enough, TR1 goes active, pulls down IC13 pin 11. Pin 10 goes high and kicks the reset pin of the CPU to reboot the game.

as long as the game is running, watchdog doesn't fire. Game hang, or crash, game gets rebooted about 1/2 second later.

That's what I was told about how watchdog works.

#67 7 years ago

well, I just took out the ram, and installed a brand new Brinks chip on the previous board. Brinks chips are basically like the Anypin, where the chip takes the place of ram and batteries. So it's brand new with updated ram. Issue is still there.

So TP2 is watchdog?

#69 7 years ago

btw, if i pull off my TP4 jumper while in diagnostics, while past 5. It automatically resets as soon as I take the jumper off.

#72 7 years ago

if i ground TP2. the game shuts down and stays that way until I take off the jumper

#73 7 years ago

now that I have the brinks chip in, it stores credits. This will make finding the start button easier in the switch matrix.

Going to attempt this now.

#74 7 years ago

ummm, quick question on that. How do I find out what switch number the diagnostics one is, as it's not one of the ones in the switch matrix?

or should it still work with the CN10 and CN 11 disconnected?

#78 7 years ago

I tried doing it with the connectors off and even with just the switch matrix connectors off. Found the start button, but doesn't work. Won't eject a ball out, Just makes the noise like it's going to start, but sits there, like it needs to see all 3 balls or something at once before it starts. I can't start a game with the CN connectors removed. Even found ball one switch, tried activating that, to see if it would kick it over. Doesn't. Manually kicked the ball over myself and tried to start another player. doesn't do anything.

took this from daves site to do it.

.......The switch matrix test can also be done on the bench without a playfield by substituting a simple jumper lead with a diode in series. Connect the anode (banded end) of the diode to Row 0...7 (CN10 pins 6, CN11 pins 2...7, CN11 pin 9) and use the cathode (non-banded end) as a probe on Column 0...7 (CN11 pins 10...17). By working through all possible switches (0...63), you can prove that the board is working, so any switch problems found must be on the playfield.....................

there must be a combo of switches that needs to be triggered or something that the game needs in order to start a game. Or something else is on that connector that it needs.

I did redo the roms. Several times. burned a set off of IPDB. Same.

Found someone in AU that has this game and a working version. I burned his images. Same

I thought for sure it was bad ROMs too. It's not

#80 7 years ago
Quoted from Sheprd:

Did you get checksums and compare? The EPROM burning process can have errors. Until you read the EPROM back and get the checksum, and then compare to a known good source checksum, you are making a big assumption. I don't think images are guaranteed to be correct on IPDB unless it is a popular title that many people have validated. Get the checksum from someone that has known working EPROMS.

yes, the images matched IPDB's. but I burned a set anyway, just in case. They did the same thing. The aussie roms I got, also matched IPDB, but I burned them as well in case IPDB's and my own were corrupt but didn't show. Same thing.

#82 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Did you reuse the same chips, or did you use a different set of EPROM chips? Try a different set of chips if you didn't already do so.

used a different set. I didn't want to risk ruining the ones I had already just in case.

#87 7 years ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

I've been watching this from afar. I don't know all the electrical theory but one major area you did not cover is the displays. Graphics for display two push up the demand possibly impacting other systems... maybe? Try rotating them to see if it impacts the issue??
faz

I disconnected the displays as a test and it still did it.

#88 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The MPU board actually does support feedback signals (CN8 pins 18 and 20) from the sound board. I can't tell without schematics for this title to see if they're wired. It may be your game relies on one or two of these signals at the moments the game is resetting because your sound board is having trouble providing that feedback.
Since you have other Zaccaria games you could try disconnecting the sound board from those and run the sound diagnostics to see if they reboot.

I've disconnected the sound board completely, and all the resets still happen.

#89 7 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Seems like this was ignored. What were the results of this?

I was looking for TP7 and couldn't find it then got distracted with something else and forgot. Still looking for the location of TP7

#91 7 years ago

Just a quick summary of things that are ruled out for sure.

MPU board ruled out
Solinoid board ruled out
ROMS ruled out
RAM ruled out
Displays Ruled out
Ribbon cable ruled out
Sound board Ruled out

#93 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The point is the MPU on this game might require feedback from the sound board. Did you try it on another Zaccaria game at the sound diagnostic?

It's got to be next to TR1 (transistor 1)

all zacs do not need a sound board to operate. This sound board is game specific, so I cannot swap it into another game. it's the only board that is game specific.

#95 7 years ago

gotcha, it just runs through the sound numbers as normal. except you can't hear anything because it's not hooked up.

#98 7 years ago

that makes me wonder. Here is a picture from a working Scramble the guy sent me from AU. Looks to me like the watchdog is jumpered. If this was a factory thing the whole time, that is going to be irritating.

working scramble boards (4) (resized).jpgworking scramble boards (4) (resized).jpg

#100 7 years ago

with middle leg of TR1 jumpered to top side of R24. It still resets trying to start 2 players.

I also tried jumpering those 2 pads, while pushing the start button and still resets.

#101 7 years ago

maybe TP7 needs to be jumpered and in conjunction with something else?

#104 7 years ago

i did double check the grounding to all the boards, and the head. Everything seems good. I'll try the board swap

#107 7 years ago

ok, swapping now. I should be an expert already, I know gen 2 stuff fairly well and have encounter numerous problems over the years in all varieties. this one is a fault that is so weird and effects so many different regions, it's bewildering. PS swap happening soon.

#110 7 years ago

I went through and changed all the settings when I installed the brinks chip. All settings took.

#111 7 years ago

I do have a relay on the back head panel that runs the GI lighting for the head. when in switch test (diagnostics), even when no lights are on. I hear it click on and off about every 15 to 20 seconds.

The relay, turns the head GI's on and off and controls the Game over light.

#114 7 years ago

NEW DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

here are close up pictures of a working scrambles MPU board from the guy in australia.

his TP7 is JUMPERED. This is good news, This means that things are different than a standard Gen2.

close up of working scramble MPU TP7 (resized).jpgclose up of working scramble MPU TP7 (resized).jpg

#116 7 years ago
Quoted from Radius118:

I have no clue with Zacs as I have never owned one - although I'd like to some day.
But I really hope that after all of this you post the solution to the issue once it is found.

I have a feeling my solution isn't going to help zac owners as this isn't typical zac setup

#119 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Since the reset is being caused by the "Power Failure" signal from the power-supply, try disconnecting the lamp driver board and the solenoid driver board.
Boot the machine and run the sound diagnostic. What happens?

still resets with the driver board disconnected in diagnostics trying to go to 5.

#121 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Try disconnecting as many of the displays as you can so you're left with one that at least tells you where in diagnostic mode you are.
BTW, can you disconnect the playfield and still have the diagnostic button present?
Idea is to try and eliminate as much circuitry as possible.

no i cannot. The switch matrix plus other things are all in the same connectors. Once I pull CN10 and CN11, the game is useless.

With TP7 being jumpered. I think there has to be another jumper somewhere, because when I did the TR1 middle leg to R24 thing, i couldn't really do much in game.

#124 7 years ago

so here is a side by side comparison to the TP7 jumper from a standard Gen 2 zac and scramble.

Now I have to find out if that is all there is. because it seems if I jumper this, the game will not boot or start fully. so i'm having the guy in Austrialia send me more pictures of his CPU in hi rez, to see what other changes there are. I could not find anything in the schematics about this either.

comparison board (resized).jpgcomparison board (resized).jpg

#130 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Please try jumpering TP8 - it is an extension of the signal in this area.

TP8 on the CPU board to ground?

Yes eproms are jumpered correct. I use 2764's on all my zacs so all the jumpers are the same.

#131 7 years ago

TP8 to ground-------> game still resets when trying to add another player.

15
#134 7 years ago

problem resolved.

I just went ahead and soldered TP7 together like his is. Now everything seems to work good. So far. Going to do some extensive games to make sure.

But so far, I can start multiple players and I can go into full diagnostics.

#139 7 years ago

yup, confirmed and fixed.

and nowhere in the manual does it say diddly dick about that jumper.

The thing that pisses me off, is this game is made by the zac brothers. They started tecnoplay with just the two of them. This game is actually older than Spooky or New Stars phoenix. Which is confusing. Unless they ran zaccaria and tecnoplay together. So they knew how to write the code for the watchdog. Why is this one different?

Thanks for pointing me the right direction to focus on TP7, and the guy in Australia was the critical piece. As he seems to be the only other person on the planet with a working one that wasn't in storage. I only found 2 people besides myself that had one. Without that blurry picture and seeing a solder blob on that jumper, I would have never figured this out. Lots of great ideas going on in here, and good steps towards troubleshooting.

thank you for your help and contributions.

#140 7 years ago

also changed the title of this thread, so others with a tecnoplay game may run into similar problems and can find this thread.

#149 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Now that it works, is the game fun?
» YouTube video
» YouTube video

the second video is my game. i made that video. It's kind of shallow, but fun and satisfying to play. Good for tournaments.

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider CaptainNeo.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/most-difficult-pinball-problem-ive-ever-ran-into-solution-needed?tu=CaptainNeo and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.