(Topic ID: 199600)

Sky Jump fun... 100s scoring as 1000, 50s scoring as 500 ...

By fotoboy

6 years ago


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  • 64 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by ajfclark
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#8 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

well it seams my machine is always scoring the "when lit" score and not the regular score on rollovers and drop targets.

Do you have the schematic?

Looking at the top left (A1), the lights are controlled by a make break switch. 1B does the 1 roll over and the yellow light in front of the number 1 drop. 2B does the 2s, etc... When you start the game, the reset arm on the 1B-7B bank should go and all the number should light and none of the yellow in front of the drops should light.

Is that how it looks when it starts?

Looking around H4, you can see the scoring switches for the drop targets and the stand up targets. These flow throw and activate either B and C, the 50 and 500 point relays depending on the position of the switches on 1B-7B again.

There's also a third line from the drop target switches to D via the multiplier unit. D is the 10 times point relay. There's a make-break switch on D (at F8) that makes the 50 unit score 500 and the 500 unit score 5000.

So where does this leave us? I can't test this 100% at the moment as my Sky Jump is in pieces, but I think this'll work.

The stand up targets should never score 5000, but if the switches on D are misaligned, I think it's possible. To test, activate all the roll overs so all the yellow lights in front of the drop targets are lit. Then tap the stand up targets. If they score 5000, the problem is on D, right side, second from the back, the make/break switch (probably with the maroon/orange wires).

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

ajfclark
As far as what it looks like on startup, yes, all roll over lights are on. AND none of the yellow lights infront of the drops are on.

Score wise, I do NOT get 5000 on the stand ups, but I do get 500 with lights off or on. Everything is scoring 10x what it should, with the exception of the two bottom kickers (is that what they are called?) that score 10.
I have checked and rechecked the D relay and it looks to be adjusted correctly. So, MUST the D relay be activated to be scoring 10x everywhere?

What you're calling kickers are often called slingshots.

D was my first guess as it was an easy target. The other part of the circuit that controls the 50/500 and 10/100 scoring is in the 1B-7B relay bank part of the circuit. I'll go have a look at the relay bank and get back to you.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

sure, thanks...
are we talking about the "B" relay and all its stuff?

No. The long relay bank with a bunch of switches and a big coil and bar the resets them all. Back end of the playfield:
20170622_185909 (resized).jpg20170622_185909 (resized).jpg

#14 6 years ago

No dramas. Hopefully I can help.

The big reset bank is the other part of the circuit that's supposed to control the 50/500, 10/100 scoring. There are 7 relays on the bank and they are numbered 1B-7B. First thing is to ensure that the reset arm correctly resets all 7 relays. After the arm acutes at the start of a game, none of the round, insulated arms should be touching the switches. Then, as the rollovers 1-7 switches go, each relay should activate, pulling the the arm against the switches. This should change lights on the playfield and the scoring.

Each relay has a couple of make/break switches. Check that they are aligned correctly.

#17 6 years ago

Let's have a look at the roll overs then. Here's the circuit:
Screenshot from 2017-10-17 13-57-02 (resized).pngScreenshot from 2017-10-17 13-57-02 (resized).png
Your slingshots and the single switches behind the drop targets and in the top left corner all score 10?

#19 6 years ago

I think that rules out D, the 9th pos switch and a few others.

Can you take a detailed picture of the wires on 2B and 6B on the relay bank? Might as well do all of them:
20171017_102136.jpg20171017_102136.jpg

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

is this the wrong side??

If you could get one from across the top, from about 45 degrees lower than this one.

Probably also worth undoing the wing nuts and taking a shot of the bottom, looking up at the blades.

#24 6 years ago

Do you have a multimeter? With the machine off, can you test for continuity on 6B between the Green/White/Red and the Yellow/Blue/Red? Should always be not connected, regardless of the position of the 6B relay.

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

well, there is continuity between those two wires...

Sorry, threw you a furphy. I realised when I was checking everything was disconnected from the backbox. They are connected, via the M and L coils, at around 30 ohms?

If you disconnect the 6 pin jones plug in the light box and test for continuity between Green/White/Red and the Yellow/Blue/Red pins it should be open.
20171018_153806 (resized).jpg20171018_153806 (resized).jpg
While you're in there, pull off the big jones plugs too and test the same coloured pins, and again it should be open.

Across those colours on the either socket should read 30 ohms.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

ok. so.
I tested Y/B/R to Y/B/R pin to pin and got nothing... Y/B/R to Y/B/R box to box (where the pins plug in) and got continuity
I tested G/W/R to G/W/R pin to pin and got nothing... G/W/R to G/W/R box to box (where the pins plug in) and got continuity

On the large jones plug, Y/B/R to G/W/R should be open: 20171018_154957 (resized).jpg20171018_154957 (resized).jpg
In the backbox, from any socket, Y/B/R to G/W/R should be connected and you should measure around 30 ohms: 20171018_155046 (resized).jpg20171018_155046 (resized).jpg

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

On these switches, all three blades must not touch at rest. Only when the target it down, should the three blades be shorting together.

Mine only short when the target is midway through its motion. At rest the contacts are separate again.20171020_112457 (resized).jpg20171020_112457 (resized).jpg

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

At this point, I am at a loss.

I'm pretty stumped too. I think there must be a short between the M and L circuits, but I can't think where it is. Unfortunately I can't just jumper them together on my own machine to try and replicate the behaviour.

Quoted from CactusJack:

You didn't confirm whether or not each and every item on the playfield that has a lit and unlit value are all scoring the lit value even though they are not lit. (Pop Bumpers don't count as they are hard wired to a single value).

Quoted from fotoboy:

But rollovers still scoring 1000 lights on or off... same with the pop ups [drop targets] and [stand up] target scores....sigh

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

But if M and L were shorted together, then things that score 100 would score 1,100 and things that score 1000 would score 1,100.
As to drop targets, their score is 50 or 500 (or 5000), not 1000.

True, I'd forgotten that the drops are supposed to scored 50. The slingshots do actually score 10 (right @fotoboy?) so if there was a short in that part of the circuit the slingshot would score 100. Hmmm...

Just trying to think of what's common between the drops and the roll overs. C and B switches are present in both circuits (F6 and F8). Could there be something there?

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Each individual score switch that can score two values is individually routed through a separate make/break switch at each number trip relay. They only "share" wiring after those switches.

That's what makes me think it's something in that shared wiring. One thing I was wondering was if some of the solder tabs on top of the relay bank had been bent? There's not a huge amount of clearance between some of them on mine:
dc5efd839af51386105794d211f9ba1a9870e05b.jpgdc5efd839af51386105794d211f9ba1a9870e05b.jpg
That might make the switch stay closed even when the contacts are open?

#44 6 years ago

fotoboy I know this would only explain the drop targets, but when the game is running, is the D relay (bottom of cabinet, second from the back on the right) energised or does it pull in and release during scoring or does it do nothing?

#46 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

Ok, folks, thanks for replys. first the D relay is not energized, but when I was testing that, the Drop downs and the "targets" (I hope they're called) were scoring correctly. But... this is just after I went thru the machine and made this video, where everything was scoring like it was LIT.
» YouTube video (should be up momentarily)

Ok, let's have a close look at the scoring.

Some things are fixed:
- The centre red pop scores 1000 in 3 ball and 100 in 5 ball mode, so you're in 3 ball mode?
- The blue pops score 100
- The slingshots, switches behind the drop targets and the other lone switch score 10
- The numbered rollovers (1-7 on the PF, I2 on the schematic) and they always energise G, and score 1000 via L.

Most of that seemed right, except the #6.

The rest of the scoring relates to the state of the numbered rollovers and need to be tested both before and after the numbered rollovers are triggered:
- The "Right side rollovers" should score 100 or 1000 depending on whether the numbered rollover 2 is lit
- The "left side roll over" should score 100 or 1000 depending on whether the numbered rollover 6 is lit
- The yellow standups score 50 or 500 depending on the state of the numbered rollovers.

- The scoring for the drops is complicated:
- They score 50 when neither the yellow or yellow is lit
- They score 500 when the yellow is lit OR the red is lit
- They score 5000 when the yellow is lit AND red is lit
In 3 ball mode, 2 red lights may be lit (operator adjustable). The centre red bumper should move the red light. So what you showed in the video seems about right, but it's hard to say as you'd already hit the numbered rollovers.

First thing I'd check is that 1100 on the #6 rollover. Is that repeatable?

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

The way your Yellow and Green "When Lit" lights are "sometimes" lit after you have tripped the associated number, may be nothing more than a bad switch on the score motor. There is a switch in charge of turning off all of the scoring and bumper lights while the score motor is turning since the game cannot score any of those values until it has finished the previous score process.

I think you might've nailed it. I missed it the first time through the video, but the pop bumper lights go on and off too. 20 seconds in things are lit correctly, but then after the motor turns the pop bumpers don't light up again.

Still intrigued by #6 scoring 1100. That should not happen either.

#52 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

So, If I soaked all of this right... Machine is playing correctly --IF it is in 3 ball mode--I will check that.

It's impossible to tell from your video. Everything you showed seemed right except that the lights aren't on reliably and that 1100 score on #6, but you tripped the numbered rollovers first, so we don't know what happens with the scoring before the numbered rollovers are tripped.

If you'd like to double check, the things we haven't been able to check:
- The red lights in front of the drops should move when the red pop is activated. There can be either 1 or 2 lights depending on a couple of settings (3/5 ball and a liberal/conservative jumper). I would guess you're in 3 ball, liberal.
- The drops should score 50 before the numbered rollovers are hit unless the red light is lit, in which case 500.
- The stand ups should score 50 before the numbered rollovers are hit.
- The rollovers with the green inserts should score 100 before the numbered rollovers are hit.

A video of those things would be helpful. Might as well double check the #6 again too. I wish I'd thought of the video idea earlier, it really did help explain what was happening. I'll have to remember that for next time I'm trying to help someone remotely.

#56 6 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

The lights are DEFINATELY spaztik, on and off at will, so something is funky there (or loose)--what controls those?

As per the earlier post, Motor switch 1C is the most likely culprit.
Looking at the motor positions chart (rotated to the same orientation as the machine):
Screenshot from 2017-10-25 11-12-49 (resized).pngScreenshot from 2017-10-25 11-12-49 (resized).png
Should be level with the top disk of the score motor, front left:
20171025_112140 (resized).jpg20171025_112140 (resized).jpg
I think it might be the outer most switch in the stack. I'd be looking for:
- loose wires on that stack
- switches are complete (eg. no missing contacts)
- the switch adjustments and make sure the 4 outer switches are actually closed when the motor is at rest
- cleaning the switches
There's some ideas on switch cleaning here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean

I tend to go gentle first (business card through the contacts) before moving up to things like sandpaper.

Quoted from fotoboy:

so... the numbered roll overs are SUPPOSED to score 1000, no matter what? and the Green button lights are 100 or 1000

Correct. The numbered rollovers always score 1000. They activate the higher scores on the related stand ups, drops and rollovers via the relay bank 1B-7B. If you don't have the schematic, it's probably worth getting.

The last thing to check the the yellow standup targets (as opposed to drop targets). They should also score 50 before the numbered rollovers are tripped, and 500 after. Also, does the #6 rollover still score 1100?

#60 6 years ago

I'd turn the machine off and then start tracing continuity.

eg. with my meter beep mode I'd put one lead on one of the 6v tabs on the transformer. Then I'd test to:
- The playfield lights fuse (should work fine, other things depend on this, but it'll let us know we've got a good connection to the lug on the transformer)
- The lower of the two tabs on the outer 1C switch - this should beep when you tap the R relay
- The higher of the two tabs on the outer 1C switch - this should beep when you tap the R relay

If that all works, I'd start looking further along, leave the lead on the motor 1C switch and test:
- to the big jones plug at the back. I think the green and white is the top right pin.
- to the white/green on the pop bumper lights
- to the white/green on the relay bank.

#63 6 years ago

I mentioned using a meter for the same reason CactusJack did. It's possible for a switch to look closed but be open, either mechanically or because of a build up of oxide.

Quoted from CactusJack:

You should be able to find the switch in question by locating the proper stack on the score motor and using a small flat head screw driver to short across the blades to make the connection. When you have found it, you know which one to go back and clean and gap.

In this instance, I'd just gently push the switch contacts towards the motor cam with my finger. If that makes the lights come on, it's definitely 1C.

Tightening the stack screws on 1C is probably worth a go too.

#64 6 years ago

If you don't have a meter, you can use a bulb. If you've got a spare socket and some alligator clips, wire it up like this:
20171027_091429 (resized).jpg20171027_091429 (resized).jpg
If you don't have a socket (I stole one off the playfield), you can solder some wires directly to a bulb, one to the side and one on the tit.

To test your issue, I'd first eliminate everything in the base. I'd unplug the large Jones plug (and possibly the other and remove the PF entirely for testing). One wire to the black/white lug on the transformer (closest to the back) and the other to the white/green on the large socket (right most at the back).

I made a video for you:

The sequence I've done:
- connect the bulb
- turn the machine on
- Press the start button (if you need to add a credit first, do so)

At this stage, R should latch, the bulb should light.

- I then step the ball unit once because the PF is removed and the machine won't step the ball unit without it
- I tap the score 50 relay
- I tap the score 500 relay
- I tap the double score relay
- I tap the score 500 relay again
- I tap the tilt relay
- turn off

If that all behaves the same, it's something further along the circuit, perhaps the jones plug itself, but we'll deal with that if we get there.

[edit: I should point out that this is only good for testing 6v side of the machine. To test the 24v you need something that can handle that voltage, eg two 12v auto bulbs in series or a knocker coil or something. The 110v/240v side would need a standard lightbulb or something. ]

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