(Topic ID: 143468)

More powerful Bumpers: Switching to DC Unwinding some wire ?


By rolf_martin_062

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 20 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by EMsInKC
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

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#1 3 years ago

Hi pinsiders
I have an "Ice Revue": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1262 . Here: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1262&picno=20243 I would like the "upper bumpers left and right" to be able to kick the ball upwards through the lanes (if possible: also the two "lower bumpers").

Many Williams Pins have the bumpers and the slingshot-kickers run by direct current, example Big Deal: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/245/Williams_1977_Big_Deal_Instruction_Manual.pdf -> page-7.
Schema around 23-C,D,E / 24-C, D, E.
Pinrepair says: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#perform -> More powerful Pop Bumpers -> "Un-wrap three layers of wire (3 times 40 turns of wire)" -> increased power.

Question: Have You done "changing to DC" - results ? Have You done the "un-wrapping" - Results ?
Greetings Rolf

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Question: Have You done "changing to DC" - results ? Have You done the "un-wrapping" - Results ?
Greetings Rolf

I've done both, as I was trying to experiment with improving some EM pop bumpers. Unwrapping 3 layers didn't do much. I unwrapped again, and still didn't do much. I think this is because even though current increases, you end up losing some of the electromagnetic force. They kind of offset each other. There's a lot of physics behind this you can read up online. But when I changed coils to DC using a small bridge rectifier for each pop bumper- huge difference. This is how my Gottlieb Double Action Woodrail is set up right now.

#3 3 years ago

Hi Rolf,
I've done both. They will be snappy if you do this. I like them better when done this way!
Colin

#4 3 years ago

Depends on the amount of original look you want, if that is even a consideration. If you are careful removing the wrapper, you can put it back on without any noticeable difference. Switching to DC will add several new wires and the bridge(s). I once removed a poorly done DC switch on a Magic City. After rebuilding the pops properly, they worked quite well (also hi-tap on the transformer). DC should be stronger if you are not concerned with what it looks like underneath the playfield.

#5 3 years ago

This is interesting, I like the idea of using a bridge before the coil. If you hook the coil up backwards with DC will it throw the wrong way?

#6 3 years ago

My Ice Review bumpers are pretty strong - I just re-built them.

If you want to do a mod that is reversible, just buy yellow dot pop bumper coils from pbr. That way if you sell the game, it is easily reversible.

#7 3 years ago

I didn't know PBR sold jacked up pop bumper coils. I'll ask my brother. He winds coils for Steve. DC for the pops or unwinding some of the coil is far preferable to hi-tapping IMHO. I think doing both is overkill though. However, I've never had a problem with weak pops on "Ice Revue". The outer two upper ones are easily able to drive the ball back into the entry rollovers if they are rebuilt and functioning properly. One thing that is often overlooked is the circuit to the playfield components. All the juice flows through a set of switches on the tilt relay and the game over relay. Make sure both switches are clean and making firm contact for maximum power.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

My Ice Review bumpers are pretty strong - I just re-built them.
If you want to do a mod that is reversible, just buy yellow dot pop bumper coils from pbr. That way if you sell the game, it is easily reversible.

Removing a bridge and soldering the 2 wires back on the coil is even easier, since you leave the coil mechanism in place and don't have to fuss with it all.

#9 3 years ago

Hi pinsiders
thank You for Your answers. Good to know: Rebuilt Bumpers -> no need for Hi-Tapping, PBR sells Hi-jacked Bumper Coils, wayout440 writes "done both - unwinding did not help much BUT DC makes a big difference - ONE rectifier for each bumper", jrpinball tells a thing I did not know: "The set of switches on Tilt-Relay and Game-Over-Relay are important" - I only did clean the contacts on the bumpers ...

So what I plan to do: 1) looking at Tilt- / Game-Over-Relay 2) maybe changing to DC 3) maybe (trying to) buy Hi-jacked Bumper Coils (PBR) 4) unwind three layer on the original bumpers.
Depending on the results of 1, 2, 3.

I started to play pinball as a youngster - 1968 / 69 (Switzerland). Shangri-La was abundant and I also played at some of the older pins "having 5 (real) balls and the window to look through counting the balls".
So when I started (2007) to buy my old loves (Shangri-La, Jolly Roger, Fun Fest, Fan-Tas-Tic, Orbit, FAR OUT and more): I had to get me the "Ice Revue".
Ice Revue and Freshie are the only pins I do not have a schema. So when asking PBR for Hi-jacked bumpers I can ask (at least for Ice Revue) for a schema.
Thanks again - Greetings, Rolf

#10 3 years ago

I'm always amused at the resistance to hi tapping a game. Talk about an easily reversed mod...

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

I'm always amused at the resistance to hi tapping a game. Talk about an easily reversed mod...

I hear ya. But high tapping is really meant to correct voltage problems at a location, not to compensate for dirty switches and poorly maintained flippers and pop bumpers on a game. If everything is cleaned and rebuilt and it still won't function properly, then yeah, go ahead and high tap it. It should be the last thing you do, not the first.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

I hear ya. But high tapping is really meant to correct voltage problems at a location, not to compensate for dirty switches and poorly maintained flippers and pop bumpers on a game. If everything is cleaned and rebuilt and it still won't function properly, then yeah, go ahead and high tap it. It should be the last thing you do, not the first.

High tapping is not even an option on many games, couldn't do it to my '58 Gottlieb.

#13 3 years ago

It just makes the games play faster. Clay does it with most of his EMs, so he says, and I have done it and I like what it does for the game. And for the record, this is on games that have been totally rebuilt and function just fine, just not quite as fast as what I would like.

Of course, it's generally not necessary on Williams games of the 70s with the DC power, but it does liven up earlier games.

#14 3 years ago

I have used all four techniques (hi-tap, unwinding wire, PBR jacked up coils and bridge-rectifier) on various games. In my limited experience:

1) Hi-tap made the least (but still noticeable) difference but is the easiest to do or undo and gives a little more ooomph to kickers, flippers, etc at the same time.

2) Unwinding 3 rows made a more noticeable difference and as stashyboy said, if you are careful cutting the paper, no can notice.

3) PBR jacked up coils were similar to unwinding (with less work but more cost) and also made a clear difference.

4) Adding DC bridge rectifiers (which I would get from Radio Shack before the closed them all by me) made the most difference such that you could actually feel it through you fingertips on the game! (not a shock but just a more solid fee). Only downside is it takes much more soldering, I had to buy the rectifiers and it is a bit of a spaghetti nest under the hood. However, I did it on the five pop bumper on my '64 Williams Heat Wave and it really flies!

All of this is after rebuilding the pops (or flippers), cleaning everything etc, not a shortcut. I'm kind of with EMsInKC, I like a faster game and all of these are reversible if you want. It is important to factor in the playfield layout. For example, on my Sing Along, I felt like the pop bumpers are so close to the side rollovers that I was worried it would radically change the play of the game so I did nothing but Hi-tap the game.

#15 3 years ago

The good EMs play fine just the way they were designed to. I have now removed high tap from several that arrived that way and are now as they should be.

My recomendation is if you don't like the way a certain game plays (and I have had a few) fix it right or try a different one altogether. There are plenty of good EMs that don't need changing.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

I didn't know PBR sold jacked up pop bumper coils. I'll ask my brother. He winds coils for Steve. DC for the pops or unwinding some of the coil is far preferable to hi-tapping IMHO. I think doing both is overkill though. However, I've never had a problem with weak pops on "Ice Revue". The outer two upper ones are easily able to drive the ball back into the entry rollovers if they are rebuilt and functioning properly. One thing that is often overlooked is the circuit to the playfield components. All the juice flows through a set of switches on the tilt relay and the game over relay. Make sure both switches are clean and making firm contact for maximum power.

Sure enough.

GTB-A4893A Coil A4893

Hot Pop Bumper Coil
-Customer Requested for giving your EM Pop Bumpers more power

*Yellow Dot * $7.50ea

Need to talk to your brother more.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

The good EMs play fine just the way they were designed to... it right or try a different one altogether. There are plenty of good EMs that don't need changing.

I side with the others that have modded coil action. They were fixed right, it's not that they don't work the way they were intended. But man, going to a woodrail after you play a modern 90s and later game is sooo slooooow. I know the purists will say "that's the way it is supposed to be". That's where experimentation and mod men move in. I felt I would try the pops because that's what most of the playfield is. There isn't 3 ramps, 3 toys, 20 drops and a whole lot of other things to shoot for on an old EM. Mostly just pops out there. I wanted them faster to take it to another level. I know it's not everyones cup of tea, but I also know there is a crowd out there who feels the same way. And all of it can be easily changed back to original for the purists with the simple knowledge of how to operate a soldering iron.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

Sure enough.
GTB-A4893A Coil A4893
Hot Pop Bumper Coil
-Customer Requested for giving your EM Pop Bumpers more power
*Yellow Dot * $7.50ea
Need to talk to your brother more.

I saw him last night and forgot to ask him!

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

I hear ya. But high tapping is really meant to correct voltage problems at a location, not to compensate for dirty switches and poorly maintained flippers and pop bumpers on a game. If everything is cleaned and rebuilt and it still won't function properly, then yeah, go ahead and high tap it. It should be the last thing you do, not the first.

We've been down this path before. My main objection to high-tapping is that it increases the voltage (force) on everything in the game (not the lamps in *most* cases) . If high-tap only increased voltage to the gameplay components, I wouldn't be so averse to doing it. It seems that some believe that changing the transformer tap will magically overcome gummy and worn components and make a game play like new again when in fact you're only doing harm to the game. Just about every modern home environment has adequate line voltage, making the intended purpose of high-tapping irrelevant. I've been to shows where because of the load on the electrical power supply, EM games play sluggishly, and some early SS games won't boot up or have flickering displays and such. In those cases, yes, change to high-tap.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

We've been down this path before. My main objection to high-tapping is that it increases the voltage (force) on everything in the game (not the lamps in *most* cases) . If high-tap only increased voltage to the gameplay components, I wouldn't be so averse to doing it. It seems that some believe that changing the transformer tap will magically overcome gummy and worn components and make a game play like new again when in fact you're only doing harm to the game. Just about every modern home environment has adequate line voltage, making the intended purpose of high-tapping irrelevant. I've been to shows where because of the load on the electrical power supply, EM games play sluggishly, and some early SS games won't boot up or have flickering displays and such. In those cases, yes, change to high-tap.

And increasing the voltage by maybe two volts to all the 24v components is bad, how? How exactly are you "doing harm" to the game? And why do you assume people do this instead of rebuilding everything first?

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