(Topic ID: 165507)

More Jacks Open headaches (fixed)

By EMsInKC

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 12 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by TimMe
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

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#1 7 years ago

I got the AS stepper working smoothly. I posted about this in another thread. The solution was lessening the tension on the retaining arms that hold the two wipers in place.

Now, the final issue. I've gone over this one over and over and I'm totally and completely stumped. I simply cannot get the game to award replays by score. It awards replays fine with the special, so I know the max credit switch is fine. This game uses a 100k relay and a switch on the 10k reel, along with the circuit board on the 10k reel, to step up the credit reel advance coil. I've checked every single switch in the path multiple times. I've checked all the wires on the circuit board, on the switches, and the circuit board and wiper on the 10k reel are all clean and making good contact. I can advance the 10k reel by hand and occasionally it will step up the credit unit at the proper scores, but most of the time, it will just go around and around and nothing happens. I've fought this thing for hours and I'm stumped.

Anyone have any ideas where else to look?

#2 7 years ago

Is the high score circuit only going through the 10K score unit and the 100K relay? It doesn't involve the 1K score unit? That would mean that you can only set replays to be awarded at exact 10K increments, is that right? I only ask because you didn't say anything about checking the 1K score unit circuit board and wiper.

You also didn't say anything about checking the plug board that is used to set the specific replay scores. Have you checked all the jones pins and the sockets on the replay plug board to ensure there is no failed connection there?

The other suggestion I have is to jumper around stuff - for example, jumper around the 10K score unit circuit board, to see if the problem is that the wiper isn't making good contact on the foil side of the board.

- TimMe

#3 7 years ago

I don't know the circuit make up offhand but if it works some of the time it points to a cold solder joint or a switch that is not quite making but does every once in a while.

#4 7 years ago

Tim and Mike, thanks for chiming in. There is no circuit board on the 1k reel. This game only has circuit boards on the 10s and 10k reel-obviously, the 10s is for the match. So yes, you can only set replays at the exact amount-example, the recommended high score settings for five ball are 130k 180k and 190k. It's different from any Gottlieb I've ever worked on, in that the high score plugs are designated as 1 and 0. There are 3 plugs on the 1 chain and 2 on the 0 chain. The 0 is used for high score replays under 100k and the 1 set is used for high score replays above 100k. On the 10k reel, in place of the EOS switch there are two normally open switches. One of those is the switch that is in the circuit to the replay unit step up coil. The game uses a 100k relay that has a normally open switch that lights the 100k light on the backglass, and a make/break that changes state at 100k points and is the conduit for the replay circuit when scores are either above or below that threshold.

I've tried moving the high score plugs to different settings and it really makes no difference. I will say they feel a bit loose in the socket, they go in very easily and that feels kind of weird to me but I'm not really sure how to tighten those up in a Gottlieb jones plug setup. I have not pulled off the jones plug for the high score settings yet, I guess that's another place I can check.

All of the solder joints on the circuit board look original. I checked to make sure the common wire was good, that for some reason breaks off fairly easily (it was broken off on the 10s reel) and all of the wires on the circuit board are solid. I cleaned the circuit board and bent the wipers up to where they were actually dragging the reel a touch so I know they're making good contact. I cleaned and adjusted those two switches on the 10k reel and they are making good contact, the blades are bending enough that I know they're making. When it works, I can see a small spark at the switch on the reel, so I know power is getting there but somewhere in the circuit it's getting interrupted. I have to take the reel out of the holder to manually step it, and I almost thought it acted like there was a broken wire, like a broken wire inside the insulation, which I guess is possible but with stranded wire not really likely.

The circuit really isn't that complex, it goes through that switch on the 10k reel, through the JX (100k) relay make/break switch, through the circuit board, to the step up coil on the replay unit. As I said, it works perfectly for the drop target special, although that's a different circuit, but that is telling me that the replay unit is working correctly and the max credit switch is closed, which is a common culprit when a game won't add credits.

I tried jumpering around this but I'm not sure I got the jumper in the right place. Maybe someone with a schematic can tell me where to go. I tried going from the 100k replay switch to the same color wire on the 10k reel switch and that did nothing.

Really frustrating.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

I don't know the circuit make up offhand but if it works some of the time it points to a cold solder joint or a switch that is not quite making but does every once in a while.

Yea, that was my first guess from seeing this on several games. That common wire on the high score circuit board often gets loose over time. Wiggle it to make sure it is making a good connection. Sounds like you have jumped around all this stuff? It should be possible to figure out where the trouble lies with by-passing most of the potential bad contact switches. Not that complex, you know the knocker/replay unit works, so definitely in that high score circuit.....good luck.

#6 7 years ago

Ugh, these types of faults are always frustrating. Sorry I don't have a schematic so I can't offer any specific suggestions.

It sounds like you've been over all the stuff that I would have looked at without having a schematic for guidance. What I would do next is to get a schematic and to go over the circuit very carefully to make sure I didn't miss anything in the circuit that may be causing a problem.

If that doesn't find it, the next thing I'll do is jumper around sections of the circuit, one section after another, until the problem goes away. Then at least I will have narrowed down the location of the fault.

It's VERY rare but wires can get broken in the harness itself. In my experience this is always due to stress on the harness during servicing, either by being pulled too much while handling a relay or stepper, or by being accidently pinched somewhere. The jumpering technique will find these kinds of problems. It's tedious, but it works.

- TimMe

#7 7 years ago

Tim, according to the way I read the schematics, the first switch in the circuit is the switch on the 10k reel itself. I'm not real good with doing the jumper stuff, but I would assume that I could start by attaching a jumper to the switch on the reel directly to the step up coil on the credit unit, couldn't I? If I'm understanding what I want to do here, that would ensure that the switch on the reel is getting juice since I would be directly connecting power coming to that switch to the step up coil.

I have never used jumpers very often as I've always been able to solve issues without them, but at this point I think this is where I have to start.

#8 7 years ago

If this is of any help I had same problem with 1977 Big Hit.

I don't remember exactly but I had to reflow one of the circuit boards - and then it finally worked.

Any pictures?

#9 7 years ago

Sounds like you are on the right track. From the 25 VAC supply rail (all the way on the right side of the page) if the first switch you hit is an N.O. switch on the 10K score unit, then you can jumper from that switch directly to the add coil of the replay unit. Of course you want to jumper to the coil lug that does NOT have the black wire soldered to it. The black wire is always the direct return to the transformer, so if you jumper to that you will just blow the 25 VAC fuse.

If the above is true then one side of the switch on the 10K unit should energize the coil all the time. The other side of the switch should energize the coil when you index the score unit and the switch closes.

If the fault does show up in the switch, then you might have a contact point on one of the switch blades that is loose. I know the points are very small on this switch but you should still be able to tell if one of them is loose. If you suspect a loose contact point, you can usually re-affix it to the switch blade by squeezing it with a pair of vice-grips. Be sure to protect the face of the contact point with a flat metal piece (like an old switch blade) so you don't damage it with the serrated jaw of the vice-grips.

- TimMe

#10 7 years ago

Are all contact points on switch blades intact?I had 3 missing I had to replace and the thing come to life,easy to miss.

#11 7 years ago

Fixed!!!

I went through and jumpered all the different switches and all of them came out good, so I was really getting frustrated with it. So I decided to go back and check all the wire attachments on the circuit board. They were all connected and looked good, but I figured, I'll give them all a tug anyway. When I tugged on the common wire, it rotated in the circuit board. I knew that wasn't right. I also knew that the common wire is attached on the inside of the circuit board with a solder trace to a very thin wire that is next to the solder point for the common wire.

When I looked inside at that trace and moved the wire, the solder trace has broken away from the contact with the thin wire, so even though the wire is attached, the circuit isn't completed. That explains the intermittent nature of the problem. When I would move the 10k unit, the wire would move the solder trace and it would lose connection.

I jumpered the solder point for the common wire to the thin wire and it works perfectly. So time to get the soldering iron out and finish this one off.

Thanks to everyone for their help. The intermittent nature of it just screamed switch issues and I knew it wasn't that because I'd checked them all so many times. I just kind of lucked into this one, but sometimes you have to be lucky.

#12 7 years ago

Great, glad you got it fixed!

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