(Topic ID: 295880)

More and more, gravitating towards less complex rules

By jorant

3 months ago


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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by Audioenslaved
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    There are 128 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #52 3 months ago

    When do we start seeing games with a save state?
    Example
    Once your game ends, you get a code and come back later to start from that save point.

    #53 3 months ago

    I think there's a difference between deep rules, long plays and slow paced pinballs. I was done with TSPP and sold it because I could never find the 30 minutes I need to play a game and when I could I didnt have an hour to play a second game.

    The Hobbit, checks all the boxes above, deep, long and slow, which really doesn't check the boxes.

    Dialed In is one of these few exceptions of a fast game that flow while having a deep rules set geared towards flow shots and scores. In that regard I think it's a perfect game at home, there's always something new to do but games don't take an hour to play, or don't have to at least.

    #54 3 months ago
    Quoted from Pinballmonkey:

    When do we start seeing games with a save state?
    Example
    Once your game ends, you get a code and come back later to start from that save point.

    That sounds more like a "continue" than an actual save state.

    #55 3 months ago
    Quoted from Pinballmonkey:

    When do we start seeing games with a save state?
    Example
    Once your game ends, you get a code and come back later to start from that save point.


    Never? This is pinball, not Xbox.

    #56 3 months ago
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    #57 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Before i say this, it is important that you know I have no nostalgia for pinball. Didn't play it growing up. Always liked video games more. So this isn't "looking back fondly on the games if my youth" sorta a thing.
    But I'm starting to find way more appeal in games with less rules. A game with tons of rules is fun, but I don't find myself wanting to keep pressing start over and over on those. When I have a game where I wreck it in Hobbit, I turn it off. Not because I didnt have fun, but it doesnt have thr immediate appeal to keep going.
    I want a game that is pure score and keeping alive as long as possible. I find myself constantly pressing start on games like Getaway, Doctor Who, Afm, funhouse etc. Hell, I'd lump twd in there, as that has sorta an old school feel, despite being way heavier on rules.
    I guess what I'm saying is, if I wanted a video game, I'd play a video game. I see the appeal of games being deep to last in the home environment better, but I just don't have the desire to press start over and over on them. When I sold my Dialed In, i only had like 400 plays on that thing, and i owned it a year and a half.
    I havent played TNA, but it sounds like maybe a should. More games nowadays are so damn insistent on being epic adventures where the rules are insanely over complicated.

    Same for me, didn’t grow up with them but got into the hobby and I love all the 80s solid states and other classic games. Nice and simple about high scores and fast flow. And they were so novel and creative!!

    Most people appreciate my collection even though at first they scoff at anything that doesn’t require a 30 page manual to play :b

    #58 3 months ago

    "Less is more" strikes again!

    #59 3 months ago

    Man, I see I'm in the minority because I'm totally out on this. Funhouse was cool because it was hard to put Rudy to sleep. High Speed was cool because running the red light was work. Showtime wasn't a gimme in Adams. When things changed to "see it all on one ball", what else is left but deep rules? If you see every mechanical feature a pin has in one single ball I have nothing more to keep me engaged but a cool mode to complete. I don't care about the score (yes, again, I know this is a minority position).

    #60 3 months ago

    e.g. Joker Poker…

    Robert

    #62 3 months ago

    The secret to a great ruleset is- it makes the player think "Damn it, if I had just one more ball, I would have scored that <insert jackpot, mode completion, objective here>", thus the need to feed the coinslot.

    In HUO, cripes, if I get past ball 2 WITHOUT pushing the credit button is sometimes a miracle. If a machine is brutal onsite, I cant wait for the day I'm playing it for free in someone's home or at a free play event or arcade.

    #63 3 months ago

    Everyone buy a Harlem Globetrotters and then check back into this thread in a month or two.
    The *Zen* of a perfect ruleset will be obvious to all.

    #64 3 months ago
    Quoted from pinballlife:

    Everyone buy a Harlem Globetrotters and then check back into this thread in a month or two.
    The *Zen* of a perfect ruleset will be obvious to all.

    Oh terry, you're only saying that because you have the nicest Harlem Globetrotters in the world.

    #65 3 months ago

    For me i gravitate towards simpler rule sets when i’m in a loud bar or arcade. Perfect setting to dump some quarters in 90s machines. At home, i personally enjoy getting deeper into modes and hunting for wizard modes i can’t quite get to. Modern sterns do this for me. I haven’t warmed enough to games like Aiq or SW yet where the rule sets seem overly complex without good reason.

    That being said... Stranger Things. It as blindly approachable and enjoyable as AFM but has the depth to keep you always wanting more. You should try it if you haven’t.

    #66 3 months ago
    Quoted from NickBuffaloPinball:

    I'm reading this discussion, and in particular what the OP is saying, and my takeaway is that he/she likes games with shorter ball times, versus long. I say this b/c Hobbit is used as an example of a game the OP doesn't like

    Stop.

    I didn't say I don't like Hobbit. I love Hobbit, but I can only play so much of it. If I have a killer game, I turn it off. If I have a killer game in Doctor Who, I press start again. I'm just finding more and more appeal to less rules in an era where deep ass rules are all we get, now.

    And most my games I own are fairly rule heavy, I'm just saying I hope to change that down the road.

    #67 3 months ago

    I call BS. 99% of our friends and family love playing our new pins with deep code. They have no idea what deep code even means. The fact that we are talking about it tells me that the OP knows pins and what he likes. That said, I would think this is personal preference and based on continued coding requests and more complexity that is selling in droves, the pinball player/collector is enjoying "more is more". It's like the good old days argument, when the truth is we all love us some 90s pins, until we get board of hit this, the that, rinse repeat.. Just maybe its the frustration of not learning the rules and maybe not progressing. Because let's be honest.. EVERY pinball game u can step up to and just do stuff. But if it bothers you that you can't finish the game then I dont recommend playing it. Remember what they taught you in flag football when you were 5? Everybody's a winner, but not everybody wins. Wait.. no.. they didn't teach that. Just enjoy the game... if too many people say its too complex or deep, we'll get lots more Munsters.

    #68 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Oh terry, you're only saying that because you have the nicest Harlem Globetrotters in the world.

    Two of them, actually.

    #69 3 months ago
    Quoted from smokinhos:

    I call BS. 99% of our friends and family love playing our new pins with deep code. They have no idea what deep code even means

    Add a target alpha to the lineup and see what game your friends play the most.

    #70 3 months ago

    Simple games are more exciting to play but deeper games last longer in my collection. Rarely do I think they hit both marks, possibly Avengers or Simpsons pinball party for me.

    #71 3 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    . The vast majority of people I have over the house that are "pinball newbies" have the impression that pinball is nothing more than randomly hitting targets and things just happen.

    Agreed. People think it's just slapping flippers. My buddy loves pinball now that I've explained there are goals and rules and targets and how to score. Blew his mind.

    Surprised nobody said Star Trek (stern). I owned it for a while and loved it. Great example of easy to play, deep enough to keep you coming back, but simple enough to walk up to and jam on.

    #72 3 months ago
    Quoted from smokinhos:

    , we'll get lots more Munsters.

    Please no....

    #73 3 months ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Agreed. People think it's just slapping flippers. My buddy lives pinball now that I've explained there are goals and rules and targets and how to score. Blew his mind.
    Surprised nobody said Star Trek (stern). I owned it for a while and loved it. Great example of easy to play, deep enough to keep you coming back, but simple enough to walk up to and jam on.

    Yep, Star Trek Stern is pretty fun. I’ve put more games on that machine then anything else

    #74 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Stop.
    I didn't say I don't like Hobbit. I love Hobbit, but I can only play so much of it. If I have a killer game, I turn it off. If I have a killer game in Doctor Who, I press start again. I'm just finding more and more appeal to less rules in an era where deep ass rules are all we get, now.
    And most my games I own are fairly rule heavy, I'm just saying I hope to change that down the road.

    I think Mandalorian is a good mix of simple and deep. Not too deep, not too simple. Just right.

    I hope this trend continues. To this day I still don't feel like I really know what I'm doing on jjp pirates. And I'm only about 80% on Hobbit. But I do love me some Hobbit tho.

    #75 3 months ago

    I like both, but tend to lean towards simple rules of 80's games.

    As I progress through a deep rule set game, the tension just builds and builds. Then you get all the joys of completing the task, or all the crushing defeat of ball drain. Total rollercoaster of emotions. Usually if I go far into a game and drain ball three, I am unlikely to start all over again right away.

    Games with simple rule sets are just plain Fun. No pressure to complete mini wizards to get to final wizard mode. Just flip, drain, repeat.

    #76 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Oh terry, you're only saying that because you have the nicest Harlem Globetrotters in the world.

    And he can't be beat on it!

    #77 3 months ago

    When I have people over they play my modern Sterns, look baffled, and then settle on AFM and MB.

    AFM is perfect as a beginner really enjoys it and can destroy the first ship.

    Decent players can go for RTU, victory laps etc.

    #78 3 months ago

    I want a rule set that makes me want to press the start button, deep, shallow, round, polka dot I don't care. What I don't want is rules that make me walk away but the rules are a reflection of the playfield and the whole package.

    some examples:
    JP2: Probably one of the best rulesets ever but I find the shooting game very frustrating so I don't get to beat the rules, play it much less.
    Munsters: A decent shooting game; but the rules are so poor after playing it for 45 minutes I never wanted to play it again.

    Avengers IQ - amazing ruleset and great shooting game!
    Deadpool - amazing ruleset and great shooting game!

    Neil.

    #79 3 months ago
    Quoted from pinballlife:

    Everyone buy a Harlem Globetrotters and then check back into this thread in a month or two.
    The *Zen* of a perfect ruleset will be obvious to all.

    Clearly this is the solution. HG is the only game I keep two copies of. One of them has the plastic prototype playfield Bally experimented with, so the two of them play very differently. Great ruleset.

    #80 3 months ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    I think Mandalorian is a good mix of simple and deep. Not too deep, not too simple. Just right.
    I hope this trend continues. To this day I still don't feel like I really know what I'm doing on jjp pirates. And I'm only about 80% on Hobbit. But I do love me some Hobbit tho.

    Mando is sorta what made me start this thread. The fact that you buy things thru out the game made me wonder, "why not just play a video game at this point?"

    #81 3 months ago

    I'm going to go out there and give a controversial answer with, "yes". I love games shorter games with more basic rules. I also love the longer games with more complex rules. It think having a mix of styles is better than only having the latest and greatest. If I have family or friends over and they want to try pinball, I'll show the the Avengers, but they usually get started on my simpler games. I personally like some deeper games, but generally prefer to have 1 deeper game with a handful of more brutal and older games and a WPC on hand for the middle ground. I love me some Rick and Morty which is relatively simple, but Torpedo Alley, Black Knight, and El Dorado are where its at.

    Based off of what you've described other games I would solidly recommend are:

    Stern Star Trek
    Fish Tales
    High Speed
    Black Knight
    Flash Gordon
    El Dorado
    Torpedo Alley
    Robocop... actually any 80s Data East
    8 Ball Deluxe

    #82 3 months ago

    Just give me all the options and I'll buy what I enjoy.

    #83 3 months ago

    Munsters is for you jorant .

    Personally it’s not whether code is deep or shallow but whether it’s clever.

    Shallow games are great, but there’s only a few that keep you coming back for more.

    They also need to be really satisfying to shoot.

    #84 3 months ago
    Quoted from Mr68:

    I simply don't want the brain damage of deep rules. Crack a beer, relax and have some fun. I still have some new games and will continue to, but more and more I've been collecting games from the 80's and 90's.
    And this is one of the reasons I'm really excited about the new Fathom 2.0 being made.

    We are in the same boat. I’ve sold off a lot of my LEs and have Fathom on order. A mint NGG and Hulk LE coming from the US soon. Thinking of getting rid of BKLE and adding something in the middle.

    #85 3 months ago

    I don't mind deep rules at all as long as the game gives me some idea of what the hell is going on. The best (worst) example I can think of this is Willy Wonka. I love how the game shoots but everything is lit up, with all of the colors, all of the time. Sometimes I'm hitting shots and basically scoring nothing and sometimes I'm demolishing the game, but I couldn't tell you why or how I'm doing it. That is a huge turn off for me. TWD is one of my favorites and the opposite situation. There is a ton going on in the game, but it presents most of it in a way where you at least understand what you want to try and shoot for.

    #86 3 months ago
    Quoted from NeilMcRae:

    I want a rule set that makes me want to press the start button, deep, shallow, round, polka dot I don't care. What I don't want is rules that make me walk away but the rules are a reflection of the playfield and the whole package.
    some examples:
    JP2: Probably one of the best rulesets ever but I find the shooting game very frustrating so I don't get to beat the rules, play it much less.
    Munsters: A decent shooting game; but the rules are so poor after playing it for 45 minutes I never wanted to play it again.
    Avengers IQ - amazing ruleset and great shooting game!
    Deadpool - amazing ruleset and great shooting game!
    Neil.

    +1. Pointless to have deep rules if half the game is out of reach for average player. I also hate this idea of packing in modes with different "levels" that are basically the same thing. Hard to be critical because everyone demands these deep kind of games. My big criticism is why is it so hard to add callouts and video assets? Most modern games seem to have a limited set with the same callouts over and over. With modern hardware, I would think it would be easy to have thousands of callouts and full library of video assets if theme is based on movie or tv show. It would be cool to hear unique callouts every time you play the game or even seasonal ones.

    #87 3 months ago
    Quoted from grantopia:

    I don't mind deep rules at all as long as the game gives me some idea of what the hell is going on. The best (worst) example I can think of this is Willy Wonka. I love how the game shoots but everything is lit up, with all of the colors, all of the time. Sometimes I'm hitting shots and basically scoring nothing and sometimes I'm demolishing the game, but I couldn't tell you why or how I'm doing it. That is a huge turn off for me. TWD is one of my favorites and the opposite situation. There is a ton going on in the game, but it presents most of it in a way where you at least understand what you want to try and shoot for.

    That's basically my problem too. I can have a 30 minute long game on my brother's AIQ premium, feel like I'm hitting shots, getting combos, multiballs, etc... but then end up with a score of like 60 million. I just don't get it.

    #88 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    I didn't say I don't like Hobbit. I love Hobbit

    Fair enough, I misinterpreted that.

    It just seems it's more of a longer playing game vs a shorter playing game argument, no? I mean, I can totally relate. If you're blowing up the Hobbit, you've played for a LONG time, right? And I'm like you, after blowing up a long playing game, I don't feel compelled to play again, it's exhausting. Hell, longer playing games can be like 30 minutes. I'm good after a 30 minute game, no need to play it again.

    But if I'm blowing up one of the games that you mentioned in your original post, I mean, that could be like a 5 - 10 minute game, so yea, you might hit the start button a few more times. I find I do the same. Yet at that end, the play time on both games might be the same.

    There's a correlation here though: longer playing games (games where it's easier to keep the ball in play), if they are any good, need to have deeper/more complex rules. Games that are more difficult to keep the ball in play for a longer period of time, tend to have less deep rules, given that it's hard to get "far" into a brutal, shorter playing game (think Iron Man).

    In my collection there's a huge mix. I tend to like fast and brutal games. But that doesn't mean that the rules should be simple, cut and paste. I hate Munsters, it's boring as can be due to the rules. I love TWD. It's brutal and can be short, but the rules are so good. One thing in particular is that there's multiple ways to approach and play that game in terms of scoring. There's some original and clever things in that game.

    #89 3 months ago

    IMHO Spooky is killing it with these types of games. Straightforward rule sets, but still the challenge to keep you coming back. Not to mention the best music and light show integration in pinball. I know TNA has mentioned a few times but ACNC and R&M are both spectacularly straightforward yet exciting enough to keep hitting the launch button.

    #90 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrExtrm:

    Not to mention the best music and light show integration in pinball.

    LOL, no offense to Spooky light shows, but, you need to get out more.

    #91 3 months ago
    Quoted from play_pinball:

    That's basically my problem too. I can have a 30 minute long game on my brother's AIQ premium, feel like I'm hitting shots, getting combos, multiballs, etc... but then end up with a score of like 60 million. I just don't get it.

    A lot of Stern games are like that. It ends up where you have to play a certain strategy to get a competitive score. This forces you to play a certain way and I just don't find that fun in most cases.

    #92 3 months ago

    Just offering an opinion, which I prefaced. No need to bow up behind that keyboard tough guy... no offense

    Quoted from NickBuffaloPinball:

    LOL, no offense to Spooky light shows, but, you need to get out more.

    -1
    #94 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrExtrm:

    IMHO Spooky is killing it with these types of games. Straightforward rule sets, but still the challenge to keep you coming back. Not to mention the best music and light show integration in pinball. I know TNA has mentioned a few times but ACNC and R&M are both spectacularly straightforward yet exciting enough to keep hitting the launch button.

    ACNC is one of the hardest games to shoot. The shots area all so tight and half of them are hidden so you just shoot to a spot and hope. ACNC is a horrible shooter but one of the best looking, most artistic games ever.

    R&M is a garbage game. Shots are horrible. So hard. Code sucks. Rules suck. It as a shit bag of a game and trade promptly because nobody played it. Like, NOBODY played it.

    TNA is a game that fits right into this thread. it's easy to learn. fun to shoot. great rules. keeps you coming back for more. it is the quintessential "one more ball" game.

    #95 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Mando is sorta what made me start this thread. The fact that you buy things thru out the game made me wonder, "why not just play a video game at this point?"

    yeah i see that. But instead of hitting a bunch of shots to get something you earn the baskar and then hit one shot and choose. It's a cool concept. It will take people quite a few games to figure out everything on Mando, the Foundry included. But it will be a great game when it all comes together and can use it all in its entirety.

    #96 3 months ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    A lot of Stern games are like that. It ends up where you have to play a certain strategy to get a competitive score. This forces you to play a certain way and I just don't find that fun in most cases.

    Yeah, that is the #1 reason I sold my Dialed In after only a few months.

    #97 3 months ago

    TNA is fun to shoot but ACNC is tight... lmao

    I guess I like a challenge... I wouldn’t want to play any of them on location cause they’re ball breakers, but that’s what makes me keep coming back at home.

    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    ACNC is one of the hardest games to shoot. The shots area all so tight and half of them are hidden so you just shoot to a spot and hope. ACNC is a horrible shooter but one of the best looking, most artistic games ever.
    R&M is a garbage game. Shots are horrible. So hard. Code sucks. Rules suck. It as a shit bag of a game and trade promptly because nobody played it. Like, NOBODY played it.
    TNA is a game that fits right into this thread. it's easy to learn. fun to shoot. great rules. keeps you coming back for more. it is the quintessential "one more ball" game.

    #98 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrExtrm:

    TNA is fun to shoot but ACNC is tight... lmao
    I guess I like a challenge... I wouldn’t want to play any of them on location cause they’re ball breakers, but that’s what makes me keep coming back at home.

    TNA on location is damn near just impossibly to beat. Definitely need coop mode. Acnc is just brutal. And stock lighting is horrendous. Which is really sad because it's one of the best looking, tricked out games there is.

    #99 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrExtrm:

    TNA is fun to shoot but ACNC is tight... lmao

    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Acnc is just brutal. And stock lighting is horrendous.

    Sounds like a game I need to get to know better.

    #100 3 months ago

    I don’t think the lighting on ACNC is bad at all. When it’s around other games and you have other ambient lighting it’s like any other game IMO. It’s suppose to have darker GI due to the theme.

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