I agree 100% and that's why my collection only consists of 90's pins - they are simple and fun! Everyone can approach them and just start playing, no need to go through deep complex rulesheets like on modern pins.

I agree this one. the deeper and harder the game is, the less likely to play it. we all like to get a good score so easy fast games are what attract.

I’m right there with ya. Give me a couple of objectives/rules and I’ll do my best to rack up a high score!

System 11 games are a perfect blend in this regard. Not too simple like an EM, but easy enough to know what to do after just a few games.

TWD was the first game that came to mind when I read your post. The genius of Lyman’s code is that someone who doesn’t know the rules can just walk up to it and enjoy it. Complete the drops to qualify modes. Hit the prison and well walker to start multiballs. Make shots to kill walkers.

I agree! I don't want to have to complete an entire quest and play for 45 minutes to play a pinball machine. I've gotten rid of Hobbit and others like that and now lean towards more straight forward games. For me, 80's-90's and later games like Congo, Monster Bash, Scared Stiff are where its at.

I simply don't want the brain damage of deep rules. Crack a beer, relax and have some fun. I still have some new games and will continue to, but more and more I've been collecting games from the 80's and 90's.
And this is one of the reasons I'm really excited about the new Fathom 2.0 being made.

I feel the same about Wonka. It's fun, but if I have a killer game, I'm done with it for a while.

I'm with you on quick ass-kicker games. My most played games are StarWars, R&M, Cactus Jacks, Tag Team,Hoops. CJ and Tag Team are great. No balls save, extremely fast and fun to try and put up a score. They beg you to hit start over and over.

Another agreement here. Gotta have deep rule set games, for tournament caliber players, but in my case 90's or Stern Pro's are my speed.

I love TMNT and had a Pro, got a Premium, it is for sale because I bought another Pro.

Its funny you mention this, someone just the other day stated they were surprised that Flash Gordon's rule set was "so deep" as I went through each feature one by one with the glass off. The vast majority of people I have over the house that are "pinball newbies" have the impression that pinball is nothing more than randomly hitting targets and things just happen.

They never read the cards.

Myself I have a sweet spot for "game time" and past that point the game becomes a bore and the timeframe is elastic depending on the title.

I recently added Fathom and Medusa to my lineup, and it’s nice to play a few games without strategically mapping out my plan. Light the multipliers, rip the spinner, don’t drain. Fun stuff.

TNA is great like this. It’s shallow enough but gets harder as you progress.

I do rather prefer complicated games but have a mix of more simple Stern Potc, AFM and more complicated pins like JP and Woz.

I’ve never owned a system 11 yet.

Don't underrate EMs! To me, EMs are all about nudging and ball handling skills - the themes and rules don't mean that much. You have to be a GOOD player to get a high score on a lot of EMs. Try getting more than about 40k on my Zodiac, or see if you can get all of the colored balloons lit on Mini-Zag. You will play dozens of games before you start getting close.
All of my tilting technique and flipper skills came from years of EM practice, and I keep playing them to keep my reflexes as sharp as possible.
I love a good game of Hobbit or Monster Bash, but I'll always go back to Time Zone or Jungle Queen for the excitement of pure pinball.

I think it depends on the size of a collection. Having one 90s pin like Wh20, while a great game, is going to get old pretty fast and that's why games like hobbit, AIQ, TSPP, LOTR are great for small collections as there are many shots and deep rule sets. I've had tspp since 2003 and still haven't seen everything.

In larger collections, it's really hard to play and understand the more complex games as they really require you to spend a lot of time with them (and read 25 page rule sets). For example, I love the way AIQ shoots and the rule set is pretty unique, but it is way too complicated with placing the gems and leveling up characters, more than I really care to really learn so I just play the basics and try to pick up what I can along the way. If it were my only pin, I'd have a much better grasp of it.

EHOH is probably the best newer game to come out in a while. It's not complex, but has a lot to shoot for and is really easy to grasp. Kind of a good mix between a 90s type game and more modern pin.

I liked the way JJP potc shot, but 36 characters is just too much.

100% agree. Give me 6 modes over 36 any day.

I need both complex and simple rule style pins.

A mix is good... that being said i just bought a baywatch and wcs and loving them.

Based on this theory there should be 10,000 Munsters sales shortly!

Ahh... rule depth. Another raging Pinside dumpster fire thread is just starting to burn...

I enjoy a deep ruleset, Things started picking up after LOTR and TSPP... People don't even know the depth of some machines, like FG, where completing the ultimate wizard mode is on beyond zebra for most. But thats where I draw the line. If the ultimate wizard mode is impossible to get to, then why even try? I enjoy the rulesets of MM, MB, AFM, FT, TG:HSII, CFTBL, TS, SS... etc... but the System 11 pins was where rules started getting more interesting. When they finally started to realize that dumping all the balls on the playfield for a final wizard mode, ball saver on was not enough fun they started cooking up ways to get more fun out of you getting there. Some machine hit that mark, others hand you your lumberjack outfit, complete with axe.

Add me to the list in agreement. But It's certainly possible to have fun on a deeper game without knowing the rules. Saturday I played the new guns/roses for the first time at a local place without reading a darned thing about the rules. Wasn't far in to ball 1 when a multiball started and I just shot ramps and targets to keep them going. I ended up just missing the #8 high score but did get the high score of the day. To your point though, I did not play a second game.

-Rob
-visit https://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or my pinball 2000 H+V Video Sync Combiner kit

Bushnell's Law says it all for me

"All the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master. They should reward the first quarter and the hundredth" --- Nolan Bushnell circa 1971

I find myself drawn to DE machines for this very reason. Games like Maverick and DE GNR I have a lot of fun with because they have rather basic yet fun rules and shoot well.

I'm reading this discussion, and in particular what the OP is saying, and my takeaway is that he/she likes games with shorter ball times, versus long. I say this b/c Hobbit is used as an example of a game the OP doesn't like, and the games the OP does like has shorter ball times. OP even references TWD as a game they like, despite the fact that it has a deep rule-set.

You tend to find "deeper" rule-sets on games that have longer ball times. This makes sense: if the ball is going to be in play longer, and game time longer, you need deeper rules to fill up this time space.

Medieval Madness has a fairly deep rule-set for a 90s game, yet, that game is universally loved. I don't think having more basic rules is really what people want. Maybe a better way to phrase this, is, "less esoteric rules"? For example, I like a game that has a really good rule-set, that despite taking some time to understand, makes some sense and ties into the game. But when you have a game like SW, that has ridiculous mutipliers, even though I'm a competitive person that has been in the hobby for a long time, I'm like, "WTF?". Yes, I want deep. I want there to be a lot there, but I also don't want to get my calculator out.

It's funny how we've swung from "Where's the code?" to, "Please give me a basic bitch game" (I kid, but, you get it)

Anyone know if led zeppelin is a deep game?

As I've said many times, you don't need to worry, the computer does the calculations for you.

The idea is very simple and is the same acrossT all machines; more points are better. If your multiplier is higher, your score is higher.
Do you really need to know what the calculation of your total mode points in Walking Dead, so you can then take 1/5 of that value and know how much your multi-kill value is? I mean maybe you do, I just try to score more mode points and then not worry aboot it. Do you need to know the exact calculation of a blinking shot being multiplied 12x vs 14? Again, I don't but maybe you do. I sure as shit know 90% of people here don't.

That's fine, I get it. I like multipliers, don't get me wrong. TWD is one of my favorite games. I'm now looking at getting a LZ.

I took a swipe at SW b/c to me, some of the of the stuff going on in the game seems really obtuse. Maybe that's just me. I'm not saying the math is wrong. There are deeper games than SW that I like way more. I'm just not a fan of the scoring in that game and the recent update Dwight did to GB.

In the end, it seems we both like deep games and multipliers (generally).

This is my general view. More good and sequel content to strive for makes for longer time of fun, provided ofc, it's fun to shoot, different paths available etc.

On ts, i think a good mix is the way to go. You can love both hobbit and tna. I know i do.

Edit: why has pinball dropped video modes incorperated in the game like indiana jones and such?
I think there's a whole level of extra stuff potential in that. Why not video modes activating physical ball-lock on completion etc....

Yeah I think SW is a sloppy Multiplier system & GOT was more refined; and I like them both becasue they are completely diff'rent than anything out there. I don't need every game like them, but if I have a Dwight choice between those 2 and BG/Munsters, not a hard choice for me.
I just always reply to the multiplier complaints becasue they make me think people only aim at shots that they know exactly how many points they are, which would be very interesting to me; in a Rain man sort of way.

I prefer that a deep rule set is present even though most games I won’t see much of it.

If you like a shallow rule set simply pick a goal. You don’t have to try and complete the game, ever.

I have to agree. Funhouse is a perfect example of the right amount of rules/complexity/fun.

Def a mix of all is best. Complex games are great, need a simple & drunker rule set for late nights or playing with friends.

Agreed, in LW3 the shooting gallery video mode is a great use of the display and ball shooter that integrates well with the game.

I feel the same way. I tend to like games made from 2010 - early solid state. The rules of games like Sopranos, WH20, BSD, T3, TZ, AFM, STTNG Avatar are what appeal to me. Once an a while I can make it to the end and see the wizard mode. If I have to read the rules on the Internet, it wont last with me. I find the long complicated ruleset gets tiring over time. I reach a spot in the game where I cannot go any further. Then the task of getting there becomes a chore. I then no longer want to play it and move on from that title.

I like games where I can set up multiple stacks and bring them together for a score explosion. Example: set up Bloodbath and 2X, but don’t start them until I’ve started another multiball. I love stacks like that, where I can get 100M points in 15 seconds. Especially in a league or tournament, where I’m going into ball 3 with 10M points. Nothing like looking up at the DMD and being happily surprised.

we have a couple dozen games and the only one the wife plays lately is our recently restored Bally Strikes and Spares. Easy to understand and the lights dont fry her retinas.

Personally the deeper the game the longer it last for me and the more fun i have exploring the code. So I avoid all shallow games to own but if out on location I play them all and always have fun on games like solar fire but Id never want to own one. Give me BM66 or Wonka rules for home use everytime or its in the door and out the door in no time.

Variety!!! That is where it's at in Pinball!

I love complex rules, and I am VERY glad that manufacturers still make them. But I also like kiddie pools. Shallow, but fun. I own games that scratch all itches. Sometimes I really do want the depth to keep me interested. But other times, I just want to play pinball. I could rattle off simple games like Stars, Team One, Getaway, Transformers, all games that I love, but that you can just play and have a great time.

Pinball is all about moods, and I want to have a game handy that will fit whatever mood strikes. If I just want to jaunt through AFM and have a laugh, that is just what I want.

The thing about the 36 characters in JJP is that the characters you're not playing as don't affect the gameplay. So for example, you can just pick a simple character like Barnacle Bill and then all you need to remember is that the treasure chest multiball is easier to get to and scores higher.

PotC JJP characters explained (0.99) (resized).jpg

Edit: Of course the game is complex for other reasons, but the complexity added by the high number of characters is optional.

22 characters. But your point is right on. You don't need to memorize or care about all the characters, just the character you pick. And the rule modification they make to the game isn't complex, it's simply interesting.

I have only been into owning my own machines for a bit over a year and have had 5 and am in for a mando premium. That being said I am gonna try for a mixture of shallow and more complex rules in my collection. I have decided having options is nice. I haven’t really owned anything super complex yet, deadpool would be the most complex and it was pretty middle of the road for that I feel.

He said 36 characters first! When I typed it I thought to myself "Wait, is that right?"

I have no nostalgia for pinball but find the simplicity and charm of older games a lot more appealing as well. I also dont really like licensed themed pins, and that's pretty much all there is now.

Haha, I hear you, even 22 is insane (in a good, amazing way)

Guardians and ehoh are great games. Easy to learn, but harder to master. Love em both!

No argument from me. The OP was talking about rules of the game. I never claimed EMs weren't fun or challenging.

I was referring only to the simple rulesets of the EM pins vs something slightly more involved like a system 11 game.

The way I see it the games of the late 80's and the 90's tend to have more of a pure fun factor. I would tell you that I find Whitewater more fun than LotR, but overall I like LotR better than WH2O, if that makes any sense. I really like digging into LotR and when you have a game where everything comes together it's amazing, but every time I press start on WH2O I'm guaranteed a fun time.

I'd love it if some manufacturer were to come out with a new System 11 style game. Give me something with a simple but quirky design, simple rules with difficult objectives (I miss the days games just had one hard to hit jackpot shot), and put an emphasis on great sound design. I suppose it would be difficult to sell as it would probably be similar in price to a Stern Pro, but if people realize that the amount of fun they can have with a game isn't equal to how much depth it has then I'm sure it could sell enough to be worth making

I think there are enough simpler games around that we really don't need that many new ones.

Haggis Fathom 2.0 is kind of cashing in on simpler. TNA was the same idea. If people want simple there are plenty of older titles to fill the void. Even CGC is giving us simpler coded remakes, albeit 90's simple.

Rules can inspire you to keep trying or they can satisfy and satiate your current playing desire.

But nobody really wants to have to read the Cliff Notes on a title in order to have fun, however if you want to be the BMOC and impress the gallery with your wizardry talents, you will have them memorized.