(Topic ID: 222461)

Monster Bash Remake (MBr) Owners Club (with Poll & Pics)


By MrSanRamon

10 months ago



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  • 444 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 hours ago by BOBCADE
  • Topic is favorited by 169 Pinsiders

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“Monster Bash Remake (MBr) Owners Club (with Poll & Pics)”

  • I'm in on a CE 32 votes
    6%
  • I'm in on a SE 91 votes
    16%
  • I'm in on a LE 282 votes
    50%
  • I'm out for now 154 votes
    28%

(559 votes)

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#2080 5 months ago

Just placed my order for an SE! Expected to ship tomorrow. I was "heavy lean" to the CE until I saw the SE in person this afternoon. Just couldn't expect the CE to make me happy after that. My first NIB since my GB Premium nightmare (don't ask- not what you think).

Side orders placed from Kerry at Mantis for Mosh pit, target decals from pinball decals, and soon from Cliff for the proverbial cliffys (I understand the "CGCys" aren't so hot?). Any other key buys needed? Not as key, but hopefully will track down some mirror blades locally this weekend.

#2096 5 months ago
Quoted from mrfp:

When mine was delivered, box looked fine. I told delivery guy my distributor said to not accept until I opened it and inspected it, but the delivery guy said no dice. He said if the box looks fine (which it did) he would not wait around for me to open it. If I didn't want to sign, he had no problem leaving with it in his truck. Everything was fine. It was my first NIB delivery, so I didn't know who to listen to, but delivery guy won that battle.

Id come equipped with a $20 in your back pocket to tip him for his patience in advance in case of any problems.

If he still insists I cant stay I'll just take it, just let him take it.

You might be delayed your game an extra a day or two, but I'm sure you can talk to his supervisor also if need be.

Ultimately, I wouldn't sign on the dotted line in this day and age till you've confirmed the game is OK-
That includes cabinet, playfield glass, side rails, and turning it on.

#2161 5 months ago
Quoted from AliciaC:

Got the email as well... Non-number matching LE shipping next week. Paid in full early December. A little nervous about the recent examples here citing freight damage. I've had a dozen or so NIB's delivered with zero issues, but isn't this why you pay with a CC? I always pay with my Amex just in case to ensure I'm covered if the game arrives in pieces or the box is filled with bricks, etc.

Again, inspect/open the top at least before signing. I can tell the difference between a pinball machine and a box of bricks. Beyond that, keep a couple 20s in your pocket for the driver to buy time if needed. Dish out one at a time as needed.

As has been stated before, these home delivery drivers make peanuts and an extra $20 or two could buy you the time you need to set it up and fully inspect. That's what I'm going to be prepared for. Gotta think in their shoes- they got mouths to feed, too.

#2192 5 months ago
Quoted from tomtest:

A follow up on the Mosh Pit protector issue, I have one of Cliffy's Blackline and one of his normal width playfield protectors, I removed the CG one-piece unit and put in Cliffy's Blackline(the stainless is not as wide and does have a nicer appearance), but you could see maybe 1/32" of playfield wood which I did not like, so I put in the regular width, but with the beating the Mosh Pit takes maybe that's a good thing. Once you remove the assembly underneath then install the Mantis protector, it has a tab with 4 holes that need drilled to mount under the playfield, you have to remove all the screws holding the white PC board, shift it as far left as possible(no connectors were removed by me) and then you can drill 2 holes which I feel is enough--you can't drill the far left 2 holes unless you disconnect a bunch of the connectors.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Did you send Cliff a pic of what the edgeline looked like on the remake?

In theory, it should line up to the edge same as the original game. I reached out to him to have a look at this thread, too, while he's at it.

I definitely don't want to install the fat protector on a new playfield, that's why I bought into the mantis cliffy edgeline sandwich concept- to protect it properly from the beginning so I wouldn't have to progress to a fat protector for repaired scoop damage.

#2210 5 months ago
Quoted from Macdaddy1974:

Well my MBLE 965 arrived late Saturday night at depot
Depot closed for customer pick ups Sunday's
Monday will be a great day

Mine's scheduled for delivery tomorrow 9am-1pm.
Hopefully all will be well- I let dispatch know I will be doing a full concealed damage inspection prior to signing.

#2212 5 months ago

Side note, I just spoke to Chicago Gaming, and apparently after the first 80 or so games they modified the scoop protector to be thicker and also somewhat of a "mash-up" in design of Kerry's design and the Cliffy, with a welded-on interior liner going around the interior of the scoop hole.

A location game they witnessed had 13,000+ plays and no damage with this new protector in. Dimpling on the protector to be sure, but the wood was unharmed all the way around.

For my part, I'll probably thus put the mantis and the cliffy in my coinbox, good to have just in case, but by no means an essential install for a home-use only game, by their accounts (and they also confirmed installing the mantis/cliffy would not void the warranty, for those interested just in case).

#2259 5 months ago
Quoted from LP30:

Not sure yet. Will have to wait for everyone to be in the office. It's the second NIBLE for me to receive such a custom shipping mod.

So sorry dude. Which freight company?

16
#2274 5 months ago

It's ALIVE!!

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#2307 5 months ago
Quoted from Diospinball:

Well... I'm getting a bit tired of waiting for my LE... I contacted my distributor, but he hasn't told me when I can expect mine yet. Thought for sure I would have gotten it by now. Don't mind waiting... I do wish there was a better way to get information. Paying a good bit of money for this, no reason why they couldn't create a tracking system where I log into a site and they tell me the status...
Still... All I can do is wait.

Mmkay. Tired of waiting, but don't mind waiting...
Sounds like you're exhausted from the waiting,
Maybe its time to step down to an SE...

#2309 5 months ago
Quoted from Diospinball:

Thought about it... But, the LE is just too pretty to pass up. And I would add a shaker anyway.. .And then I'd mode a tesla coil in it... And I like the topper... So when you consider all those things... I think the LE is a fair price, and I don't mind so much the waiting... Just hate the not knowing.
I need to take the day off of work to wait for it to arrive, and then I need someone to help me bring it into my house. Not paying 300 dollars for them to take it up one flight of steps. 100... Okay... 150... maybe... But, no setup... No trash removal... Just bring it into my house for 300 dollars... Yeah... No thanks...
So I really do need to know ahead of time the day it will be delivered so I can make arrangements and get my time off from work approved.

Topper looks cool- won't deny- I'm even keeping eyes open for someone who wants the LE but not the topper- anything's possible- but I'm all about stainless or Chrome on Williams games.

Always thought powder looked chintzy on Bally Williams games. The lockdown belt buckle type graphic not my cup of tea- really gaudy to my eye. And shaker motors don't do much for me, even on games like Crypt and Roadshow.

But to each their own! For most, the LE is love. Just wasn't for me on this title. Plenty of options for plenty of dream games.

#2312 5 months ago

Anyone maybe interested in a group buy on invisglass who might go to TPF? I understand these usually ship in at least pairs from JJP...I can hold your sheet for you till the show...

#2315 5 months ago
Quoted from GCS2000:

It's funny to read this as you summed up my thoughts unfortunately I went with the LE myself. I love toppers, love the plasma disc behind the Dr., really like the blue trim even though I would normally just want the stainless, and the extended warranty is a bonus. The shaker motor is an ehh for me on this game although I really like it on others (RS, JP etc). I will say that I actually hate the plaque on the LD bar. I wish it wasn't there at all and it is actually one thing steering me away from the LE model.
If I knew I could get the topper added on for something reasonable I would change my order right now to the SE and get my game asap. I know can add the plasma disc since I have already seen that mod out. I seriously doubt CGC would ever make the topper available as an add on later and I doubt even more that an LE owner would give theirs up.
I should mention I would be interested in a sheet of PDI/Invisiglass for this game but I am in Richmond, VA so would need to be ordered with someone in the area.

Ironically, the plasma disc isn't a unique snowflake- its already been re-created with the exact same connector by Lermods...and plugs right into the SE the same as the LE.

As for the lockdown bar, I find in pinball design there's a fine line between awesome mods and bling-y mods. The plaque is totally bling-y, in my view. As in, over the top bling-y. I didn't even see etched lockdown bars in the mod space till about a year ago at TPF. Too bad they didn't just put a numbered plaque on the cabinet- a-la Addams Gold. For my part, at least.

Anyway- one thing you 'could do'- ask Chris at Pinball plating and more if maybe you shipped them your bar, if they could mimic the metallic color and sheen.

Might not be possible- but if they can, you then have a duplicate without the plaque for your game's day to day, and can just hold on to the original for posterity.

As for the topper, yeah its a longshot I get a hold of one, but fortunately its also not deeply necessary for my part to maximize the experience- especially since its not motorized/animated like the AFMr one.

#2330 5 months ago
Quoted from seenev:

My distributor just assumed I would be at the very end and said it could be the end of March or even longer. Clearly CGC isn't communicating timetables very well. I think if every order was assigned a game number when you place the order, the least they could do is have a website that gives an estimate for that game to ship. Anything would be better than what we have now.

The rate things are going, the SE is going to be the *actual* Limited Edition,
Much the same as the standard stainless editions are on Jersey Jack games- that is, much fewer made and sold-
While the "standard" LE customers are the ones that have to wait the longest to get their games.
I can just see, once the LE sells out, a "monster edition" with different extras, numbered...etc.
Keep that money train rollin' in!

#2361 5 months ago
Quoted from Nytewatch33:

It's especially hard to wait when you only have room for one pin in your house, and you don't have a pin currently in that space. I sold my WOZ in October in anticipation of bringing in the MBr, and at the time I was told December - possibly mid December. Paid in full, and now it could be March or later? I'm seriously thinking of backing down to the SE, installing some invisiglass and a shaker. Honestly is the topper worth an extra two months wait? One of the big things with the LE for me beyond the topper was the 2 year warranty. The responsible thing is just to wait it out...but I can now see this dragging on on into April or May... I'm losing faith and an SE would scratch my itch. Resale on the LE is probably better, but by the time I go to sell (if I ever sell) there are likely going to be other LE's available without this long wait. Decisions.....

I don't see the same trend. Different games, but on Attack from Mars, arguably a better LE- at least from the topper perspective, the LE resale prices still really nosedived. As in, $1000 less, with some frequency.

I didn't see quite the same drop from the SE. Probably $500 less for HUO ones, on the rare occasion they came up. The SE to me is like the "best value" porridge bowl, especially if you can live without the topper. It's full featured, but without the $8300 price tag.

Also, in this day and age, it's rare for new pins to hold or appreciate in value. They're new big boy toys, not mutual funds. Maybe Munsters LE has a chance, especially if a color premium variant never gets released.

#2390 5 months ago
Quoted from Nytewatch33:

I keep going back and forth on whether to step down to the SE. I was thinking this morning "ok, I'm doing this. The SE can always be modded to add the plasma disk and shaker. I can probably get some mirror blades too. I could be playing in a week!" Then I looked at the beautiful blue metallic powder coat and the topper again... If it weren't blue, I would have an easier decision. But I'm a sucker for blue. The topper is also awesome, but I could honestly probably live without it (btw no that does not mean if I get an LE I would be willing to part with the topper...).
Decisions...

The stainless rails appear to be easily removable with screws. You can always buy a separate set of rails/legs from CGC and mail them to pinball refinery or your powder shop of choice. An hour of time or so in your home doing the switch-out, and you're back in the blue, where you would have been...without the LE wait or the undesirable lockdown graphic.

#2414 5 months ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

Did all three versions have the extra screws in the siderails ? Maybe someone can show a picture ?
Thanks

Those screws aren't likely "extra' but rather what holds them on instead of the mounting tape used by WPC to mount their rails back in the day.

They'll be on both stainless versions, not sure about the LE's though (though hopefully so, in case rails get damaged in shipping, etc- more fluid to replace, no need for hair dryers to melt the tape bond, etc etc).

#2434 5 months ago

Surprised it only took me a couple days to think about this but, where's the mylar where the ball drops from the launch? Did Chicago Gaming deem this unnecessary because of the extra thick clear, or because over the top in home environment, where most of these may go?

#2451 5 months ago

It's kind of strange that MB doesn't have a ball save for 5-10 seconds on launch by factory default. Anyone who know the game/history know why this might be the case? I know all Addams and early TZ don't by default but, later home TZ roms did?

My current plan is to leave it factory but I definitely miss the handicap from those moments I'm slightly unfocused when I'm just starting

#2516 4 months ago
Quoted from ercvacation:

Do anyone think the delays might have something to do with the scoop protector? Just a thought.

No, probably gotta be stock of the topper, lockdown bar, powdered trim, or shaker.

Doesn't make sense they can keep pumping out SEs and CEs at will and not the LE unless it's an LE specific part shortage.

#2529 4 months ago

So the most likely reality is- they overshot demand on the CE and SE, that's why they're available, and they haven't sourced enough playfields to keep up with the LE. Had they "guessed right" on demand across the board, all 3 versions would be hard to get, and thered be more LEs in owners hands by today. #Facts

11
#2558 4 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

I knew you guys would chime in eventually. Well done. Appreciate the update and your clear passion for making those LEs as nice as possible
Not sure I've heard of a manufacturer looking at the pf quality for LEs different than what's approved for non LEs and I really like that.
Thanks again

I know the patient LE owners might love this update, but I big-time disapprove of finding out there has been a covert, differential treatment best practice employed between the classes of the games. That the "rest of us" may have gotten a lesser playfield product than y'all will get- without our knowledge. Even if the "baseline" is "great."

Playfield quality, if unequal, should be part of the advertised product feature list, along with everything else like trim, topper and screen size (like buying a CPR Gold, Silver, Bronze). Otherwise, it should be equal treatment across the board.

As a consumer, it should be part of our spend considerations. To me, a better quality playfield can be of more value to a buyer than a topper.

As most CEs were bought for location, not as critical, but also a number of SE owners- mostly home use owners- would have opted for an LE if they knew they were buying a "silver" playfield and not a "gold."

#2567 4 months ago
Quoted from ctviss:

At the risk of opening a can of worms and blowing everything out of proportion... my AFMr SE playfield is less than perfect. It doesn't bother me; even if it did, what would I do? No way I'm going to deal with a playfield swap or sending the entire machine back, as this is my first NIB machine and second machine in total. The hassle of that far outweighs what I might gain.
I certainly chalk this up to variations as these are all hand-made like CGC says, so not every playfield will be absolutely perfect. If you're a perfectionist and won't deal with anything less, this definitely isn't the hobby for you.
The "defects" are all in the silkscreening. There is a white spot, and little lines where only the dark gray silkscreening didn't seem to adhere, but not in all areas. The most obvious is a tiny patch/splotch, first picture. You can't see the faint lines unless you're looking for them with your face pressed to the glass.
There is also a shallow scratch, in the last image. I really can't say for sure whether I caused this or it was always there, but I didn't notice it until about a month after owning the machine. Again, this is only noticeable with my face pressed to the glass.
I'm sure many other SE owners have perfect playfields. Outliers always exist, and do not represent the quality as a whole.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Its not the existence of defects- or lack thereof- that's the moral problem here. This is pinball, a steel ball rolling, so, in a sense, we're all waiting for the proverbial hammer to fall. That includes LE and even HEP restore owners as well, assuming they intend to play their games at some point.

Whether it be a sign of ghosting, crazing, or your first broken plastic, nothing in life has any business being or staying perfect anyway. Though I admire the quest for greatness...in pinball, as in most things.

The issue here is the question of your odds of getting a product that's acceptable to you, the customer, right out of the box, and whose actually entitled to better odds for landing the best of the best playfields in the playfield lottery, if anyone, and why. Knowing also that every customer is different, and that quality comes at a very high expense.

If you bought an LE, your chances to be satisfied with what playfield you got are bona fide higher, out of box, based on what we learned last night. And the fact that you, an LE buyer, didn't pay for this "right" any more than I did as an SE buyer, that's at the heart of the moral problem here.

What you did pay more for was trim, topper, shaker, plaque, plasma disc and extra warranty. That's IT. Unless stated in the product catalog, all levels should have equal chances of winning or losing the playfield "lottery." Period.

That said, while a misprint or bleed to the side for most everyone may be a non-issue/acceptable deviation, through the lower center of the playfield could be quite another. And maybe not even then, on location. Or to a buyer who has somewhat poorer eyesight. It's a case by case question that should exist for CE, SE and LE buyer equally, unless otherwise stated as a bonus of your upgrade decision.

Right now, if you're an LE buyer, though you may have to wait, you already can be comfortable knowing you won, while someone else may have lost. To me, given that you didn't pay for this privilege any more than I or someone else with an SE or CE did, and that we weren't even given a chance to make the decision for ourselves at point of sale to opt-out of the "perfect playfield lottery" we fairly assumed all were subject to, I think that's just wrong. And I find that no less wrong, whether the SE or CE buyer in question ended up winning their own particular playfield lottery, or he/she lost.

#2569 4 months ago
Quoted from dts:

Even the original Williams/Bally playfields had variability between games. This is the nature of a hand made, custom work of pinball art. I’d still rather have a remake playfield made with the original ten step silkscreen process by hand, in the same factory as the originals, than the fancy printer version from Germany, as nice as those are. I’ve owned the other remakes and am familiar with this, and originals as well. The LE I’ve played locally is simply exceptional. If the standard for playfield production is at the same level on average, I’m guessing the differences are pretty minor and a win-win for everyone.

As before the question isn't the quality of the lot, but rather what gives the LE owners the "right" to draw the best of the best while everyone else gets the seconds. Even if the seconds are "great" and well beyond the BW originals as a class.

#2572 4 months ago
Quoted from dts:

Unless there is a serious problem with the clear, mismatches, raised inserts, crazing, etc, I don’t think this is going to add up to anything. It is unfortunate that it sounds like there is some cherry picking as they should all be held to the same standards. I’m just saying that all playfields become used with dimples that turn into orange peel finish that become smooth again with time from thousands of plays. Even the playfield protectors do not keep things perfect, or high end restorations, or anything really. Your new machine will become used as soon as you open it.

It's just as serious- at least in some cases. There are some confirmed screen printing defects and the like on the SEs and CE models. Buyer tolerances and extremes of the defects will also vary.

Even Ryan has more or less stated that, after the fact, some of the playfields shipped in games were objectively rated as "unacceptable" by the company, though the vast majority beautiful.

Also, that results will be perfect every time- or consistently closer to perfect, for LE buyers, was also confirmed.

10 or 10,000 plays in, the screened art consistency doesn't change on a well maintained game.

An LE buyer can rest well knowing they'll get the best, whereas everyone else, turns out they'll be taking their chances at what they'll find when they open their boxes.

#2577 4 months ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

It is a current industry wide practice to have higher standards on playfields going into more expensive LEs.
Subpar playfield are stripped and rescreened or discarded and not used in any model.
We have been making playfields since 1977 and assembling pinball machines for less than two years. Remarkably producing playfields still remains our biggest challenge.
Quality expectations of collectors greatly exceed those of the operators that originally purchased the games.
If I built a time machine and brought brand new Williams machines from 1998 to the present, they wouldn’t meet the expectations of some collectors.
We have three original Monster Bash playfields in house and there are significant variances between the three. We would have rejected one playfield and the other two would not meet our standards for an LE.
The playfield is the backbone of a pinball machine, it is perhaps the most important component. We are very focused on producing outstanding playfields.

Industry standard practice is fine, just make sure the customer knows up front that this is the case so they can make an informed buying decision ahead of time.

SEs, however, are NOT markedly less collectible than LEs- nor much less expensive- and probably more likely to be in collectors hands than in arcades, especially those who prefer to manually chrome their trim to powder coat or toppers.

CEs of course should mostly be in arcades and I doubt buyers of this level would expect a premium machine at a commerical level cost.

#2578 4 months ago
Quoted from Tradesman:

Thanks for the clarification Doug! I'm sure as you know some people are never satisfied!

People who are blindsided by the fact that all the best playfield prizes were out of their playfield lottery have a right to be unsatisfied. I and many of my SE peers are no less collectors for a $700 savings. Plus- the LEs aren't available unlimited. All we'd have asked for is fair disclosure, up front, so we could have made the right decision for our investments!

#2586 4 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

For the SE guys expressing frustration - I do understand your point You seem to be very particular though about the machine which leads me to something I don't understand. If you're that particular how in the world do you not get the LE version of this game? So much more value and you get the definitive version that it appears you're looking for.

I wanted to chrome out my game vs. powder coat, didn't see the need/value for a lockdown bar graphic, inanimate topper, and quasi useful shaker motor.

In my view, the differentiation on this game from SE to LE was in the eye of the beholder and it wouldnt have been a financially sound one to mine.

Clearly the first class playfield ticket might have turned my head..or knowing the SE had no chance of getting one could have.

-3
#2590 4 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I’m a buyer on an SE eventually. The playfield tiny imperfections really wont be noticeable or impact play etc. Realize that until CGC said something, no one here knew there was any difference, but now that you know, some can’t get over it even though they never saw it before.

Too simplistic. Depends on the game. Some shipped SE and CE playfields have already been deemed unacceptable by CGC standards based on what Ryan wrote above, not just minor nitpicky stuff, and a frusrator the LE buyers won't have to deal with.

Sure, the classic buyers won't probably care unless the thing is in serious cosmetic trouble, but the SE buyers are a collectors market, not an arcade market, and deserved equal treatment as LE buyers unless told otherwise, and in advance.

-4
#2594 4 months ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

I think the Ghostbusters LE was advertised as having a thicker clearcoat as well.

Let's leave Stern out of this, shall we? Apples to oranges comparison. CGC is really trying to make best in the class product, and there's still some growing pains. I think this LE vs SE playfield quality control judgment call line shows just what one of those can look like.

As for Ghostbusters- that game was a quality control trainwreck and even more so for the LE- ghosting on the inserts everywhere, collapsing cabinets. They may have their act together now, but as Ryan said, they aren't using the same world class playfield processes in house over there..and the cabinetry from CGC is in another league.

#2607 4 months ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

I will meet with Ryan on Monday and discuss how we can best disclose the differences in playfield standards between different models.
The difficulty is in distilling playfield quality standards down to a single bullet point on a sell sheet or even a more lengthy written definition.
It is still somewhat subjective. We continually try to formalize the definition of an acceptable playfield. Even months into production, Ryan and I are still called to the line almost on a daily basis to make the final call whether a specific playfield meets quality standards.
LCD panel manufacturers grade the quality of a panel using the specific number of dead pixels (A grade = 4 dead pixels, B grade = 8 dead pixels, etc). The number of dead pixels is quantifiable. That information is easily placed on a product data sheet. Grading playfields isn’t as easy.
I like the diamond analogy previously used. With both playfields and diamonds you are starting with raw materials formed by nature and not uniform synthetics. Both require skilled craftsmen to transform the raw materials into the final product. The variance in raw materials plus the variance introduced by human inconsistency yield a certain percentage of A, B and C grade products. Higher grade diamonds command higher prices. Surprisingly, well less than .01% of diamonds are graded as flawless. I suspect the percentage of flawless playfields occur at a similar rate to diamonds - I believe this to be true for all pinball machine manufacturers.
The challenge is in understanding and defining what is acceptable.
For every playfield that makes it into a game, there are a high percentage that are scrapped or reprocessed. We are not putting subpar playfields into any of our games.
We have shipped nearly four hundred non-LE Monster Bash. I believe we have only had three service tickets opened for playfield issues. With few expections, SE and CE customer feedback has been very positive.
Honest conversations can be uncomfortable but often lead to good things. I certainly gained a better understanding of what’s important to our customer.

Very impressive response. Well said.

#2611 4 months ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

I couldn't agree more.
While I asked CGC to comment here, it wasn't with trepidation, so I waited as long as I thought I could.
It is no wonder that manufacturers don't post here, and probably don't spend much time reading what is written on Pinside either.
I thank CGC for posting their explanation for the slower shipments of LE's than originally anticipated...which is what some were grumbling about.
Now that you know that reason, you have something else to agonize about, playfield grading and selective usage.
I realize that some LE people got caught in the unfortunate area between Playfields are good, games will ship soon, send in your money & woops...Playfields aren't always perfect, so we have to hold up LE shipments.
I don't know how much info CGC gave to their distributors, and that's maybe where this could have been handled better by CGC. With a bit more info, the distributors could have contacted the few people that paid in full and their LE game was delayed.
Robert

I couldn't disagree more, actually. CGC did great with their disclosures, and so did we.

Yes, Pinside can be toxic at times, but this particular dialogue was open, honest and thoughtful on both sides. Maybe some threads havent been, but this thread wasn't some blind, pointless backlash. Where a few like you maybe saw banter, I saw progress.

While the narrative took an unexpected detour- CGC's transparency is a feather in their cap and the exact opposite of the duck-and-cover model I saw from Stern during the Ghostbusters debacle.

Businesses often pay a lot to learn how to help their customers. They couldn't have gotten this great of an experience from an actual focus group, and this one was free to own.

Had they instead filtered and hid some secret coded message behind their distributor network, this wouldn't have happened, and the LE customers would be no happier either.

This IS great business..

#2631 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Ok the following is way too long but I feel I was instrumental in being the squeeky wheel that brought this about and need to post this...
I feel sorry for CGC, they are getting it from both sides and I don’t think that we have been fair.
The “can of worms” that was opened up here was the mere mentioning of a difference between quality of the build of each trim level, with people seemingly now concerned their CE or SE or even a number matched LE may have a “sub par” playfield in it. Not that you would have been able to know, actually looking at your new machine when you got it, if it had any minor defects or not, since most have no clue what an “acceptable” defect looks like compared to a “LE rejectable” defect, how this determination is made, when it is made, and what becomes “usable” in which trim level of machines.
doug_duba, thanks for letting us know to what extent CGC is grading their playfields. Historically, Churchill Cabnets knows how to make and grade playfields and even other playfield reproduction manufacturers know there are “levels” of playfield quality, or why have the differing levels gold, silver and bronze? And yes, if people look close at the old B/W playfields used in real originals, they will find ALL KINDS of defects. B/W never graded their playfields based on any trim level, they just sent the good ones down the line first, leaving the worst to be used as scrap wood around the factory or some are stripped and rescreened, and the ones with minor defects left for the end of the run. This made machines rolling off the line first usually the best machines in the run, at least as far as the playfields were concerned. Ops didn’t and still don’t give a dead rats ass if there are “minor” flaws in the playfield screening. Does it play pinball? Does it make money?, then ship that puppy.
I feel the same way now as I did back then. Nothing has changed, nothing to see here, just standard old pinball. That they are making sure my LE has as nice a pf as possible is wonderful, but if the quality of CE and SE playfields are better than OG MB playfields, can any of the trim level buyers complain and say their “recreation” is “sub par”? Be it a CE, SE, or an LE.
“Collectors” and flippers are really ruining this hobby in my mind. I always thought it was cool to have a pin in my home to play. That it was a little hammered when I bought it just meant it had given a lot of people a lot of fun before I got it. Those who want to eat off the damn playfield after owning it for 10 years are idiots, and those buying one and trying to keep it pristine are just as foolish. I buy my pins to play, like ops buy them to make money. It’s an amusement device first and foremost. You want to collect something, try stamps or coins because keeping a collectors car without driving it, a collectors gun without shooting it, or a “collectors” pinball machine without playing it is the purest form of rich man snobbery that turns my stomach. I have the money for a NIB MBrLE, I put my money down, I am waiting now, patiently, for CGC to deliver a MB experience for me like no other I ever expected to have, owning my own Monster Bash.

The takeaway I got today is that the grading differences are mostly imperceptible to the human eye, and not as big of a deal as I previously thought.

We aren't talking a Ghostbusters ghosted insert here, a crazed insert there, stuff that can "do in" a playfield in time, get out the door to an unlucky SE owner kind of thing.

Playfields with those kinds of "acceptable" defects at Stern would be firewood at CGC even in a CE. Automatically. A couple ink dots overprinted from the screen in remote areas of the game probably aren't this level of problem issue. Your game is and will stay amazing. If only the originals had it so perfect.

If you see an objectively major issue on arrival, and it makes you really unhappy, talk to CGC about it. This is still a human run business, and unacceptable playfield defects in their eyes can still sneak through an intensive, human led screening process, even on the LEs. Super duper unlikely! But very caring and passionate pinball people standing behind their products.

I admit I was taken aback badly hearing about the multiple levels at first, thinking many SE and CE owners had been bucked from a chance at an amazing playfield because they spent less, but not now that I know how close to the page they look with this sort of thing. And that the bar for a dud is set extremely low. It's not the level of scrutiny what we're used to from other manufacturers.

#2632 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballCoug:

Could these be the type of playfield issues in question? (Playfield pics of a LE) Honestly I didn't notice these until I started looking closer after the CGC post. Are these serious deal breakers for people?
[quoted image][quoted image]

Don't think so, see above post

#2646 4 months ago
Quoted from Nytewatch33:

Totally agree. I was one of the people saying I wished they would communicate more. And they did. They delivered, and pulled back the curtain a bit and I am very much appreciative. I was on the fence about continuing with my order, but based on the transparancy alone I have a lot of faith in this company to deliver a stellar product. Communication is King. Yes, I understand people's point of view about not being able to make an informed decision in advance about the playfields vs trim level, but based on the examples of less than perfect playbills I've seen posted (the little black dots) I think people are getting way worked up over nothing. Seriously are we going to start grading these pinball machines like comic books? "Selling a MBR LE - I had it sent in for CGC grading and it's a 9.5! $20k firm." Lol. I want my game to look nice and play perfectly. I don't want issues, delaminating, warping, or stuff breaking. I want it to play flawlessly and I do want the cliffy protectors to protect the playfield. Beyond that - I could care less about a few little black dots.

Right on. The playfield quality question raised was not about who- if anyone- had paid for the right to be free of a couple errant little black dots. That's what people who thought mindless pinside MBr owner CGC bashing was occuring failed to see.

It was about whether *real* issues like insert and clear problems were deemed SE or CE acceptable, because this is the lower quality standard we're kind of used to from other companies.

Such a thing would make sense to most of us, as the reason for holding up the LEs. And a perfectly valid concern, especially on the SE, a model that just as much as LE games (by and large), have been going into collector's homes. But this wasn't the reason for the LE delay. The shades of gray in playfield quality were so close to the page that nearly no one else on planet Earth would possibly know. But to CGC, they mattered, and they were worth fighting for.

So now that we know that material flaws are NOT acceptable to CGC, even for the CE level games, the effective mutual communication has resolved this concern once and for good.

If you have an actual major issue- rare, but possible- anything's possible with a handmade product- open a ticket and they'll make it right. Good stuff, great games

#2820 4 months ago
Quoted from wolftownjeff:

Thanks, any chance it should look like this?
[quoted image][quoted image]

No, that cliffy was meant to be for an unprotected outhole.
You'd have to take off the CGC protector, which admittedly looks even better in this area.

#2850 4 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

The cabinets are not splitting, it’s a tear because of the wrap around the corner and if they pull too tight when they apply. I agree they should just stop wrapping the corners.

They look terrific this way when done right, best in class, but perhaps even a milimeter or two of oversized cabinet relative to the decal creates this problem, requiring extra stretch to fit. I would think there would be tension tolerances.

So far, issue seems localized to the front. Any possibility of there being over tightening of the side rail(s) being at all at fault?

#2851 4 months ago

Random Public Service message for MBr owners- perhaps owners of previous CGCs know this, but I didn't think on it-

Be sure and TURN OFF the Power Saving GI feature in the rom from the standard menu (not the CG menu)
This was there in the 90s for regular incandescent bulbs- not for modern games with LEDs.

Moreover- I notice that the backbox speakers in my SE made a mild buzzing noise after 15 minutes with this feature engaged by default.

#2878 4 months ago
Quoted from KornFreak28:

Is MB considered a family pin? I have never played it (no locations nearby) but I do know it's very popular and looks like a lot of fun. Do kids enjoy playing MB in general? Looking to possibly add MB to my collection. Thanks!

You'd have a Drac in your collection again...along with a Creech, and a few other monsters...

#2885 4 months ago
Quoted from KornFreak28:

How's that MB of yours bro? Enjoying it?

Very much so. Excellent game. Easy to play, difficult to master.
Just as hard to get to Monsters of Rock as to stack 3 multi's in BSD-
Even harder if you leave the default no ball save on (even BSD has a default ball save...)

Waiting on RGB trough lighting from Lermods, side decals from Silly Old Elf- I know Pingraffix is making interactive blades but,
Decided the sillyoldelf design was too perfect to pass up.

Expect to buy a Franks table at TPF from Mezel, and perhaps Pyramid mod if that's ready as well.

#2899 4 months ago
Quoted from KornFreak28:

Thanks for the info guys! I wonder why they can’t correct this issue? I hold CGC to a higher standard

You can. Check your cabinet and decals before signing on the dotted line with your delivery driver or before you take it into your truck at the airport.

If you see any signs of cabinet shipping damage or cabinet decal manufacturer build defects, refuse delivery. A week or two later, a new replacement will come.

I know this is super annoying in particular for LE buyers who waited for so long but- this is pinball and that's how you protect yourself the best.

Given 50+ pages of posts without issue it should be fairly obvious this issue is still relatively rare, not merely undetected by most. But CHECK before you sign!! As this issue is always top front, just pop the box top and look.

#2905 4 months ago
Quoted from GCS2000:

Is this confirmed anywhere? And I assume you are talking about their powerblades right?

Yeah, it's coming. Don't think twice on it. I'd bet on a TPF reveal since they won an award for ARMr powerblades last year. Just not sure at all what they'll look like. Decided, for my part, to go with the sillyoldelf design instead of waiting.

Of course, if they really blow me away, I reserve my right to change my mind.
I don't plan to install them till the show anyways-
But if all we get is an electrified version of what came before- the torch and pitchfork design- no thanks I'll pass...

#2932 4 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Been looking at ways of making this game harder.
Outlanes, very tight tilt, one or no eb's.
Hadn't thought of lightning flippers.
That might be a simple way of adding a ton of longevity to this game.
I can't imagine FT or BSD without lightning flippers - way too easy.

Default no ball save. Open outlanes. Good luck reaching Monsters of Rock with any regularity then. Lightning flippers would make game ridiculous hard at that point.

#2934 4 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

I did all that plus had it set up 7.0 and limited eb. Game was fast and cld be brutal but still on the easy side but still fun to play.

Of course you could also drop to 6 for crazy side to side/outlane nightmares.

#2993 4 months ago
Quoted from netman63129:

Looks great! Like you I like to play in the dark. The flipper area doesn't seem well lit. Any issues seeing the ball?

Buy a Lermods RGB trough lighting kit to assist with that...

#3010 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

Would you post a close-up pic of the front right corner of your cabinet? If CGC is doing something different (ie ... NOT wrapping the decals around the corner) to address the splitting decals, I'd love to see what it is!

Ok, so let me show my SE with a November build date. It does NOT appear my right decal has been pulled over the corner. Nor the left decal over the other. Seems to end slightly before the edge on both sides. Zero apparent decal damage, beautiful install. There appears to be a thick "fold" to tuck in the front decal within the left or right side of the side decal- depending on the side looked at.

Btw- the other MBr examples with the slight decal damage that I've seen here on Pinside- they don't look like the decals final "resting spot" has been "extremely" pulled over the corners either- unlike that AfM on the previous page. Just slight overpulls to the upper corners where the side rails meet the decal.

Either way, its not as though the corners on any of the games I've seen- as such- should play much more of a part in pulling these decals apart further through natural wood shifting and the like.
IMG_20190201_115624 (resized).jpgIMG_20190201_120028 (resized).jpg

#3025 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

Yes, this is still the exact same way that they have been doing the decals. The front decal is wrapped around the corner onto the side, then the side decal overlaps that and ends right at the corner. The decals are cracking right in the middle of the overlap of the two decals, which happens to be right where the cabinet seam lies. Some of them seem to be cracking immediately, and some after the fact during use, and some never.

This observation doesn't seem to be entirely accurate.

Look at the AFMr example posted from the previous page. The decal process definitely appears very different, from the AFMr run this game came from.

Either that, or the front line "mistake" in decaling, shown here, was way worse.

Yes, the front decal is wrapped over the right corner on the underside of the right decal a bit, however- in the AFMr example,
The right decal is clearly wrapped an inch or two OVER the right corner as well, not just ending where the cabinet seam lies,
But pulling toward the front of the cabinet.

I would venture its this right decal OVERWRAP over the corne- from right to center- that's the chief offender for decal tear,
With way too much decal thickness at the corner the result.

And appears to be slightly the case too at the top corners- slight corner overwrap near the siderails- on the MBr examples with the tears at the top as well.
afm (resized).jpg

#3032 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

Agreed! They were doing the AFM decals the opposite .... pulling the side decal around the corner onto the front, then placing the front decal over the top of that, and ending at the corner. So, the overlapped decals on AFM were on the front panel of the cabinet, rather than the side, as is MB. Here is a pic of my MB with the crack, and decaled the exact same way as the SE pictured. The fit and finish is beautiful! I don't know why this cracked like that.[quoted image]

Actually- look closely at the AFMr example pictured- BOTH front and right decals appear to be wrapped over the corner.

As for your MBR- I believe the decal may have been over-tugged by the installer near the rail during install, or the side rail was screwed down too tight.

And YET- I strongly believe the harm would halt here.

I doubt wood "shifting" and the front decal wrapped over the corner caused this to a right decal that "meets" at the corner but doesn't wrap it.

And how would additional pulling on the right decal on your game occur- to aggravate it anywhere near this AFMr?

It doesn't have BOTH decals wrapped over the corner.

#3034 4 months ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

On the le picture i can See the overlapping, on the se picture Not
So i Cross Fingers they change it

On my SE, the front decal folds over the right corner, and under the right decal- which ends AT the corner
The AFMrLE front decal appears folded over the right corner, under the right decal,
Then the right decal is folded over the right corner as well, then almost a half inch "in," overlapping the front

#3037 4 months ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

ok, i hoped they have cut it Both sides, like the Original ones

There appears to be a thicker "fold" on the side decal near the front
to accommodate the front decal folding over the corner, but under the side decal-
So clearly, the manufacture process was done this way by design.

#3040 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

The original MB cabinet seam was exactly at the corner. There was no overlapping of decals - the seam between the decals was at the corner, as was the seam in the wood. These new cabinets have the wood seam offset from the corner, about a quarter of an inch back, on the sides. Thus, the cracks in the decals forming exactly in that spot on some games, and the overlapping of decals, etc ...

That's true, but these also aren't the same decals as well.

They have thicker folds on each side to accommodate the decal from the front.

Something has to give for the occasional glitch- in my view, its either the installer or the tolerances of the decal/cabinet in question.

Personally I just think if the cabinet wood is too wide by a millimeter relative to the decal, the decal is a millimeter too short or too thin- different tolerances, different result.

Either way, without the right decal being folded OVER the corner, the damage result should be minimal by an install mis-fit vis a vis AFMr.

Side note- can't believe we'd give props to original MB decals direct or by implication.
The original MB decals were notorious for being a "hit" show around the legs

#3042 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

OH YES! The originals were always damaged at the legs. That was mostly due to the legs being bolted right against the vinyl. Some games seemed to withstand that better than others, but MB was one of the worst! Thankfully, all manufacturers have stopped that practice. I do believe that the original cabinets were a better, more durable design though. And, as stated in this forum by an wood working expert earlier - if a wood seam cannot be 100% stabilized in all 3 planes of movement, then vinyl artwork has no business being placed over it.

Perhaps, but again, its being placed over it on the UNDERSIDE, unlike AFMr..so no major tugging should be occurring after the fact on the RIGHT decal from the cabinet itself- which ISNT being placed over the corner- just meets the edge. Sure its a tiny bit thicker on that spot, but the decal was MADE THICKER in that spot to accommodate it, plus the corner itself isn't tugging the right decal backwards and to the right...

Id raise an eyebrow if the right side of the FRONT decal showed tearing, the one pulled over the corner..but that hasn't been the case.

#3048 4 months ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Here’s a pic of my original. I was lucky enough to have it shipped NIB from automated distribution back in 1995. $4000 including shipping was a shit ton of money back then as I was only in my mid 20’s at the time. Best money I’ve ever spent. My buddy came by about an hour after I unboxed it. It was in the foyer by the front door. My buddy wanted to get baked so we burned one down and started playing. Next thing I know I guy in a suit is nocking on my door. My ball drained cause I looked over my shoulder to see who it was. I answered the door and this guy pulls out a badge and says he’s with the FBI and what can I tell him about John Smith ! I said I don’t know him. He said ok he’s your neighbor across the street and he just applied for a job with the bureau. Talk about having a heart attack. We still laugh about it today!
[quoted image]

$4,000 in 1998 is equivalent in purchasing power to $6,165.23 in 2019. For that money you got a MB classic stock without LEDs. Today, $6300 delivered today gets you a NIB with LEDs and modern boards. So basically, if you figure the value of what you pay for additional, the game today costs the same.

#3050 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballCoug:

I believe this shows the seam you're talking about
[quoted image]

Have yet to hear of anyone report them spontaneously "forming." Hopefully I won't be the first Seems to all be out of box apparent, so far.

The wood working expert testimony is all well and good, but if we take the above as true, all that's left is the decals, the cabinet, and the side rails. Something's gotta be out of calibration there on the games with these issues vs. the majority/minty ones, including the ones for AFMr that HAVEN'T been developing these issues.

#3052 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I just received my LE today....it has the overlapping decals, which look great if they don't split....

So far we haven't had any reports of flawless decals later splitting.

#3058 4 months ago
Quoted from PinballCoug:

I don't have photos of this area to be 100% certain, but I can't believe I wouldn't have noticed the decal issue (both sides) when unboxing or during initial inspection (which I didnt). I really think it developed sometime over the first two weeks, but without unboxing photos to be sure I suppose it could have been there all along.

Either way I'm very sorry to hear.

Curious if this happened to *both* sides each and every very time, or if some just have one side affected.

Regardless, for the 58+ pages of thread owners that didn't report issues, I hope there haven't been any and it's localized to a factory install issue, which hopefully is or will soon be resolved.

#3064 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

Yes! Thank you! I was obviously having a difficult time converting that picture into words. Vinyl decals over that seam pictured = bad idea. Given time, humidity and temp changes, nudging habits, movement of the game, etc ... I'll bet many games develop issues at that spot.
After all, CGC is not shipping games from the factory with that flaw. So, the very act of transporting them is causing just enough movement in the cabinet, specifically that seam to split the vinyl on a few games. It will be interesting to see what the future holds as these games get used.
I'm sure that CGC will do something to help me, and those that have this issue. Their service is renowned. If it's new decals - great! I've installed lots of cabinet art. If it irritates me enough or gets worse or I get caught up on projects, I'll change it. I feel bad for the guys who have this issue and are not able to fix it themselves, or it occurs post warranty.

I think when we find out what's really the reason for these accidents we'll all look like I did when I found out how CGC assesses playfield quality. Like we never had a clue.

#3068 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I’ve really got no idea, just hypothesizing. To take it further, since that tension strap goes in the middle of the front of the cab, it could be bowing the top of the front panel which has the effect of pushing the edges up, this splitting the decal at that point. That top part of the front panel above the coin door is the narrowest point of the cabinet and probably most flexible. Who knows but might be worth looking into.

All these so called design weaknesses/freight strap tensions, etc have been present for these machines the entire run of the game to date, but only in the past couple days has this issue come to light, and presumably only on recent unboxings.

Surely something else must have changed from the first 58+ pages of flaw free decal games to the very recent games, right, be it install process, quality of decal, etc?

At this point- on that note, I think I'll disengage. In truth we're all probably just spinning our wheels, hoping to make the affected have some clarity and the unaffected feel more secure. It's really outside our pay grades. Kind of like grading their playfields

#3072 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Ah, no. I had split decals out of the box on my AFMR over 12 months ago. The only reason I’m commenting. It’s also been reported on MMR from original runs.
So it’s not new, it’s not isolated. The best solution is to not wrap the decals, simple. CgC told me that’s what they were doing going forward over 12 months ago when I had my issue. Not sure why theyre still doing it this way.
CGC are the cabinet experts. They have been doing it for decades and they know how to make a rock solid cabinet. I’m sure they’ll work it out.

Yes, on MBR, it actually is. Past week's new news. But these examples may have the same flaw factor in common. It just might not be what we think. Anyways, totally above my pay grade.

#3079 4 months ago
Quoted from sirlonzelot:

Has anyone try to cut the corners? I think it will look better then the cracks.

Y'all are killing me. We have yet had a single reported case of confirmed flawless decals later getting damaged by supposed cabinet shift. Which, given 58+ pages of flawless MBr cabinets, with I'm sure a fair few on location getting absolutely whaled on by the general public, seems to me to be super unlikely.

Till then, and definitely till CGC chimes in, I wouldn't mutilate a set of mint decals. I bet you'd end up doing so for a reason that has nothing to do with the actual cause of these damage cases. No matter how persuasive the suggested reasons by woodworking experts- ones that didn't design this actual build of materials for CGC.

-8
#3123 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

My sympathies. The vinyl cracks in the decal and that one corner... if these machines are getting lets just say “over handled” (either in manufacturing, or shipping), couldn’t CGC figure it out for the cost for a CE by pushing it off a fork lift or drop it on the loading dock in the crate and seeing what happens? That many flaws, one machine... signing the BOL would have took a leap of faith in CGC to make it all better, in my mind. The continued decal splits needs to be solved. Is this shipping damage? Is the decal getting embrittled by excessive heat during the wet application process, or possibly due to using a non-vinyl friendly cleaner to do the final cabinet wipe-down? The pictures of the CE (or was that an SE) corners look perfect, so whats the deal with LE’s?
I just had a thought... is the topper crate, which is shipped on top of the box, causing too much lateral forces during shipping? Could this be causing the cabinet to flex back and forth due to the added weight carried so high up on top of the box? Do the CE and SE have the same problem like LE’s or not? All this is going to take some time to figure out... hopefully before my LE ships. I will accept a few blemishes, a small scratch or nick, but the decal cracks and the corner of that cabinet are just not what I call LE quality.

That game was clearly dropped or otherwise mishandled in freight. Way beyond CGC's control. That's what shipping insurance and your disty is for.

As for the cracks, as before, this is a phenomena on some of the most recent MBR games. Not apparently on MBRs that delivered prior to this past week or so.

Something's probably changed recently and hopefully soon we'll hear it's been discovered and remedied.

-1
#3124 4 months ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

That game was clearly dropped or otherwise mishandled in freight. Way beyond CGC's control. That's what shipping insurance and your disty is for.
As for the cracks, as before, this is a phenomena on some of the most recent MBR games. Not apparently on MBRs that delivered prior to this past week or so.
Something's probably changed recently and hopefully soon we'll hear it's been discovered and remedied.

Ok so what's the alternative then folks. Obviously CGC didn't pack this game with broken bits and cabinet wood dings.

This is very sad but the fact is this game in particular was mistreated by the carrier. Joe@PinballStar told me recently carrier incidents are on the rise recently so don't skimp on the insurance and use a carrier with a good track record. Don't sign till you're sure your game is ok. Keep a few bucks on you for the driver to wait.

This goes WAY beyond the recent decal issue, folks.

-1
#3139 4 months ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Lower the flipper strength to -8 problem solved, factory setting is way to strong IMHO.

I'm going with -6 right now.
For me -7 felt a touch too soft to feel like the shots were satisfying. I never tried -8, for that matter.
Of course, every game could be slightly different.

-2
#3140 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

Just curious ... what is your deal? You pounce on every person that posts with news of cracked decals on their machine, claiming this is an isolated incident, and just started happening in the last week or so. You challenged me after I posted pics of my cracked decals on my brand new game claiming that in 58 pages of forum, I was one of the only ones to experience this issue. Then you claimed you needed to disengage from this conversation. Now you're back. You already have your perfect game. What is your dog in this fight?

Pardon this long response, yall.
But if you stick with it and hear me out,
I think you'll see what I've been getting at here is both good and thoughtful.

#1
I never said this situation was isolated like a one-off. Please don't misunderstand...
Ive been saying that decal cracks on MBr decals seem isolated on MBr to the past week or so's deliveries.
No one has shown evidence to the contrary on this point,
And YES this issue has existed in the past on AFMr and MMr.
There's no denying that fact either.

But this is apparently a NEW issue to the MBR production run...it just started popping up on our radar this week.
This fact alone could also be an informative clue to CGC to find the ACTUAL source of the problem and fix it, once and for all.

For example, say in the past week or two they changed something in the build process-
Perhaps a different cabinet part manufacturer is 'covering' for an out of stock primary supplier- one they've used in the past..

Everyone's been blaming the seams in the cabinets-
But for the first 3+ months or so, the cabinets- as they were built-
The seams haven't been shown to have caused any harm to MBR games actually built,
So surely something else- a recent change or a return to previous build method-
Must be the cause of this defect rearing its ugly head again??

#2
My second goal here is to level-set expectations based on facts-
And by doing so also help warn buyers to CHECK the tops of their games before unboxing and signing on the dotted line.
The crazy thing is- I've been warning people to check before signing for days,
and here we are, people still taking signed possession of games before checking.
Then people here are down and out. People who have been monitoring these posts and these warnings to check.
What's the point of this thread if people ignore our good advice. I don't get it.

#3
As for disengaging, the night I said that there was heated discussion on and I needed to go to sleep.
Part of the club, its only right to thoughtfully contribute where I can.

#3141 4 months ago
Quoted from KornFreak28:

That’s horrendous! CGC should be ashamed of themselves! This is unacceptable!

Something seems rotten in the state of Denmark here.
I'm not sure what to believe...

Just as likely to believe shipper tampering after the incident to try and cover up the shipper dropping the freight.

But if this was really allowed at the factory I'm sure CGC will investigate/raise hell over it,
It goes to the very essence of their jobs to approve pinball machines for shipment that meet new in box standards,
And the buyer should be made whole- period.

#3142 4 months ago
Quoted from britrex1:

I have to say this decal cracking business is quite concerning. I may have to cancel my LE order unless they get this straightened out

Just pop the top and check the front of the cabinet before you unbox and sign!!
If its got cracks- refuse delivery! Another will come!

#3144 4 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Oh, wackybrakke, I still like ya... not sure why all the downvotes... do I know you? Owe you money? Hit your cat? Run over your Dog? Can I just apologize and we move on?

Who is this guy? He downvotes nearly every post of mine as well and doesn't comment as to why. Most recently I just posted that the LE with the bits, if factory injured and approved in badly injured condition, should be replaced by CGC with a new game if he wants one.

I mean seriously, what does he want me to say instead?

He even downvoted my opinion on flipper sensitivity.

I mean, what??! There's nothing objectionable there.

#3150 4 months ago
Quoted from AliciaC:

$8K NIB toy does not include an allowable tolerance for "phenomena."

I never said that it should. I think you should be made whole for the decal tears- no questions asked.
Absolutely unacceptable.

As for the other damages- if this really happened at the factory, I think it should be remedied by the Company-
I cant believe such injury would be allowable and signed off by anyone let alone possibly multiple people.

Its just beyond my experience to see NIB items with quality control approvals on cabinet dings, broken bits and the like-
I'd just as likely believe the shipper injured/tampered with your package under such circumstances.

I hope- either way- you're made whole and in double time speed.

#3158 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

A shipper, attempting repairs on a game and then somehow repackaging without that being obvious would be extraordinary. These boxes are stapled shut - if the shipper removed all the staples and tried to re-staple in the exact same holes with the same type of staple, I suppose ... They would also have to re-strap both the game, and the packaging materials (head to bottom cabinet, box to pallet, topper to box and pallet) as it came from the factory to hide the evidence. As someone who has bought CGC games before, a shipper wouldn't get that past me. As someone who is involved in LTL shipping all day for my work - this is not something that I have ever seen a reputable carrier attempt. They will play the fool sometimes and try to pass off obvious shipping damage on the consignee, but more often, they just fess up and admit that something happened. They have insurance for these situations anyway. I am interested in plausible causation, and solutions too! This is not a plausible one. The simplest answer is usually the correct one.
I think CGC just fell down on this one. Maybe they are rushed because of customer expectations vs the admitted delays, and mistakes happen when one is rushed. The cracked decals ... this is so obvious, I'll sum up again - vinyl over wood joint = likelihood of eventual failure of vinyl. Maybe the REALLY careful decal installers at CGC can do such a careful job that this reality is delayed, or maybe even avoided ... and, the slap-dash installers, not so much. But, more likely, this VERY WEAK cosmetic link (vinyl over wood joint) manifests dependent upon temperature extremes during deliver, how carefully the game is handled during it's time on pallet, or ... just because weak links in anything have a tendency to fail.

Understand. Yet, no one has cracked the nut as to why then for 3+ months no decal cuts surface on MBRs, then all of a sudden here they come, one NIB game after another. And never subsequent to looking good out of the box due to "cabinet shift" theory.

All that's changed that we know of for sure in that time is the weather.

#3303 4 months ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Understand. Yet, no one has cracked the nut as to why then for 3+ months no decal cuts surface on MBRs, then all of a sudden here they come, one NIB game after another. And never subsequent to looking good out of the box due to "cabinet shift" theory.
All that's changed that we know of for sure in that time is the weather.

20130130-132100 (resized).jpgbing (resized).png
#3310 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

what exactly are you right about? I'm not convinced its weather at all....the same exact issue happened on my AFMRLE and it was delivered in the summer....these games really don't shrink or expand much with those types of temperature swings....I buy the topper theory more than anything.

They changed the cabinet wrap process in a major way since AFMR. So its actually off topic to the situation in this thread.

Ive been speaking narrowly this whole time to the conditions that impact MBR..

Anyways, y'all can believe what you want to about what's to blame for the issues, however..

Its all water under the bridge now. The games impacted are being addressed, and moving forward there's not going to be cabinet wrapping- in line with the current model at Stern and/or elsewhere.
well-there-it-is (resized).jpg

#3316 4 months ago
Quoted from Mdanielb:

The issue with decal cracking on AFMrLE is actually NOT off topic. All that changed from AFM to MB was a reversal of the way that the decals were overlapped. The cracks were still occurring in the exact same spot, and from the same combination of causes - primarily, the vinyl over wood joint cause.

It is. That makes all the difference, the tensions and the tolerances changed with the new wrap process, and its been holding up fine with every MBr game sold so far, including with pounding on location.

Drop a week of -20 degrees on Chicago/elsewhere on a week's worth of deliveries and, well, the rest is history and now, future history.

No more wrapped cabinets..

#3325 4 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

what exactly are you right about? I'm not convinced its weather at all....the same exact issue happened on my AFMRLE and it was delivered in the summer....these games really don't shrink or expand much with those types of temperature swings....I buy the topper theory more than anything.

The topper has been shipping with the game without cabinet incidents for months.
The extreme weather impacted the decal at the joint.

#3395 4 months ago
Quoted from aztarac:

Holy shit - $450!? Pretty high estimate - must have gold flecks. I've had games (legs, rails, lockdown bar, bolts, hinges) done for $150-$200 depending on color and finish.

Forget powdercoating aftermarket- Pinball plating and more. Chrome it out. The true gold standard on Bally Williams style games...
Never been into BW with the powdercoat look.

#3561 4 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Well you wouldn't be selling it for LE price in theory.

Has the topper even been confirmed to work on the SE through the backbox for interactive lighting?
Seems silly to get it if it doesn't.

People have "said" its been reported locked out of the SE and CE,
But that wasn't the case with the plasma disc port..
My hunch is- it, too, would- and should- work.

Especially for an aftermarket topper, since obviously the LE toppers selling separate are gonna be very rare..

#3573 4 months ago
Quoted from Dexter:

What pitch do you have your MB set at? I'm at 13 degrees and wondering what everyone else is playing at? Thanks.

13?! That's even possible? Dial it down to 7.2 for perfection

#3594 4 months ago

Got a spare Pinstadium Deluxe Kit fully loaded with UV Glow, GI module, and glare guards. $240 (discounted from $270).
Will really brighten up your SE/LE.
Confirmed ready to go for Monster Bash Remake, Attack from Mars Remake, etc.
No waiting- I can ship tomorrow.

Update- sold

1 week later
#3876 3 months ago
Quoted from Kerry_Richard:

Cracked deals are why I got a refund. I am/was concerned the cracking may continue. I'm really bummed because MBrLE is BEAUTIFUL!
That $$$ went straight to JJP's PoTC. Should arrive next week.

If both games were $8K per LE I'd have gotten a POTC too but the extra 2 bills, just couldn't for a game with a partial license. No matter how beautiful or decked out.

#3946 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I agree with most of what u said, but the guys not gonna wait around for you to power the game up....seems a little over the top to me....

The gent who delivered my game waited and didn't request a tip or seem in any hurry whatsoever.
He was relaxing on the sofa, enjoying the can of coke I put in his hand.

#3953 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Thats great, but I can't imagine most would be willing to wait for someone to unbox, setup, fire up the game, and then test? In an ideal world your experience is best

I didn't go all the way through testing...but I did get it on its legs and power on before I gave the all clear

#3954 3 months ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

Not to worry my friend.

Don't forget Craig also should have some sheets of HD glass!

#3969 3 months ago
Quoted from JFink8222:

Wanted to post a pic of my decals. Game was printed manufactured 02/12/2019. My decals are NOT wrapped and cut right up to the end. In my opinion they look great.
[quoted image][quoted image]

That's how they all look. From the sides, anyway. So long as it isn't cracked- and those are in the single digits percent wise according to CGC- that's actually the best look the game can have.

The wrapped corners on MBr are done from the front underneath the sides. Now, if the front looks like you can see the white edges or some black- well, then, the change has been made in that way.

However- it was my general understanding that when the change got made, we'd see black cabinet a little from the edge on all sides. Much the same as a modern Stern.

Personally, I hope CGC identified a manufacturing issue in the decals themselves being wrapped in the games with the problem or in the wrapping process itself and remedied it instead, outside of the localized deep freeze weather issue- the wrapped look really is amazing aesthetically.

#4014 3 months ago
Quoted from Goronic:

Good advise. Yeah I plan on having only 1 pin for the next few years.

Good luck with that

#4101 3 months ago
Quoted from pghpinfan:

Picked up matching #381s today!! Both look and play great? Are there any adjustments I should make on MBr settings?[quoted image][quoted image]

-7 on the flippers in CGC menu, turn off power saver GI in the Bally Williams Menu.

#4106 3 months ago
Quoted from pghpinfan:

Thank you. Why the power saver off?

It's for old school incandescents not LEDs and if on causes an annoying humming noise in the backbox after the game is sitting in attract mode for the designated period of time.

It's a vestige of the original code that would have not "ridden along" has the entire code been rewritten.

#4116 3 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

3 questions:
Are you guys playing at 7 or 6.5? That would be three or two lines on bubble guide?
Is it common for rejects in left ramp? Ball stops mid way then returns back down?
Also that return from the right orbit.... Is it designed to return to flipper or bump against right sling?

7.2 on mine for the win. Go no lower than 7. A few may disagree but this is a game that can take bash airballs so I'd say 7 minimum to keep that down a bit.

As for left ramp- play better. Lol

Right orbit should return to flipper but given it's coming from the pop bumper lottery there's no total guarantee.

#4123 3 months ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

The majority goes to the right flipper. Id say 80%? I'll need to pay a little closer attention to it. I can sometimes get some back to back wolfman howles from continous loops. I love that.

My favorite call-out is actually when the bride screams in horror when the ball goes down left outlane on ball 3 with Monster Bash lit. You hate missing the party, but the callout is absolutely process.

#4131 3 months ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

Same here. I don't find the game at all easy and the people I've had over to play it felt the same way. I have played some in the past that were much easier. It is a lot in how its setup. Higher pitch, open outlanes, keep the settings factory. Plus a new game is always faster. I really like this game, but can see how someone who is a better player on a MB that's setup easy, would burn out of it in short time.

I think the game is the sweet spot of difficulty of any BW90s game I've ever owned. And I'm a decent player.

Easy to get into, a good game gets you Monster Bash, once in every few months you may reach Monsters of Rock. I've done that less per play than I stacked 3 multiballs in BSD.

Myself, I've only reached MoR once. I got close once as well (5/6 instruments).

Does MoR fundamentally feel like a different "concert experience" than Monster Bash mode?

While it should (though it isn't), the scoring sure does, and all in all the mode feels like the true wizard mode endgame because of it..

Had this been coded today, almost certainly it would have too. Ie, there should be a monsters of Rock song, or the monsters shouldn't play their instruments during Monster Bash- except maybe the ones collected.

But this is part of pinball history..

#4133 3 months ago
Quoted from canea:

It's definitely an easy game, particularly if you stack the modes to collect instruments. Only took me a couple days to get to MoR; had a friend over and he got there in a couple games. No ball saves, steep pitch, harder outlanes help to make it faster and harder for sure. I also own Theatre of Magic - a game that constantly gets ripped for being too easy - and Monster Bash is easier imo. I think this era the is the perfect blend of fun and moderate challenge though. I like getting to wizard mode more often vs. a game that I know I'll never complete. Monster bash doesn't feel that different from MoR to me (and on a good game, they usually run back to back anyway), though the gimmick of collecting the instruments in MoR is well implemented.
I wish there was ONE more thing going on - like instead of Lyman's Lament, maybe a tour completion or tour wizard mode for hitting all the music venues via the scoop.

Better players than me. Stacking is obvious but doesn't happen automatic when certain modes like Wolfman and Dracula almost can't help from starting..

It's interesting, despite these wishes said- this is still, right now, rated on Pinside as THE greatest pin of all time....

#4183 3 months ago

Actually, it gets used during Mosh Pit Multiball. Wait, I see this was already noted by another. Nevermind!

#4221 3 months ago
Quoted from GCS2000:

Let me tell you invisiglass is sick on this game. Only way to fly IMHO. I wasn't a big believer in it until I finally saw it and makes a big difference.

Ordered my first PDI sheet for MBR. Excited

1 week later
#4338 3 months ago
Quoted from ctviss:

This is common and I don't know if there's much you can do about it. My AFMr as well as some others have the same issue - at MAX it's pretty quiet, but as you decrease the backbox brightness it gets louder, with no change in brightness or sound from MAX to -1. See my post in the owners club: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/attack-from-mars-remake-afmr-owners-club/page/124#post-4738242
Long story short, CGC sent me a replacement controller board but it made the problem worse, so I sent it back and kept my original board. They pretty much just said it's a known issue with the design but they won't address it, and left it at that. When I have time I might try some things but for now I'm just keeping the setting at MAX.

Turn off GI Power Saver- Williams menu settings.

#4376 3 months ago

Before and After PDI glass installed in my Special Edition You can't even see the ramp and the monsters through the blurr of the regular glass..the difference is like night and day.

IMG_20190316_095546 (resized).jpgMVIMG_20190316_104052 (resized).jpg

#4387 3 months ago
Quoted from ChiroCop:

1.) How much is it?
2.) Where do I get it?

1) Ask Joey what his best deal is on 1 sheet or more.
2) Email Joey at Pinball Decals Joey@pinballdecals.com.
3) Buy sparkle glass cleaner and lint free microfiber towels. Spray the sparkle to the towel not to the glass. Wipe/clean towel, dry towel. Or just buy Joey's PDI cleaning kit. Stay away from standard Windex like the plague...

The quality spectrum having owned all 3 types:

1) PDI- 10/10 the best, special process made/cured.
2) Invisiglass- 7/10 very good but its coating can be prone to wear, green tint.
3) Stern- 5/10 lukewarm improvements over a regular sheet, purple tint.

#4395 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I have PDI and Invisiglass right next to each other and theres zero difference. In my opinion paying an additional $50 for PDI is a waste of money.....I would stick with Invisiglass $320 delivered direct from JJP.

There's actual studies on the products head to head all over Pinside, and there's a measured difference between all three.

Most of the sophisticated pinheads I know that buy optical glass buy PDI every time. With enough cash to buy the best, I decided this time I'd just go for it. I wasn't dissapointed I did.

But really, I was impressed by Invisglass too. I just noticed on my Hobbit a green tint and a little edge wear. That said, I wasn't first owner of that game, so I can't account for it's prior care. But from what I've heard about the processes that make all 3, PDI's coating should be the best of the lot.

Personally, I wasn't satisfied with my Stern HD sheet when I had one. But that was just me, and I'm sure environmental factors matter as well.

#4397 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

the sophisticated ones Thats funny! All I can tell you is that I have both in a bright game room and theres zero difference....the effectiveness of the glass is directly a function of your environment....

Glad both products seem identical to you. I hold to my statement above. Check the research, or trust opinions. It's up to a potential buyer to decide which way to go.

#4413 3 months ago
Quoted from tilted81:

Glad you got a good one. I had a nice sheet of invisaglass on mine, but it showed off all the shit playfield imperfections of my se. So I put it on my Iron Maiden.

Yikes. Side note- here's the research on the PDI vs. Invisiglass glass performance differences from Pinball News. An actual test study, not opinions.

http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/glass/index.html

1 week later
#4631 84 days ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I spoke to Ryan at the show and he said basically the playfield issue is the key reason for the hold up - taking 5 times as long per game to manufacture. He doesn’t want to ship any games that are sub quality and frankly I agree with him - this is good from the POV that some AFMR playfield didn’t make the mark and caused a lot of kisses off cusomters.

Met him at the show as well. Ryan's good people. CGC as a whole really exudes passion for the collector.

#4674 83 days ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I have a feeling this might be the last games from CGC at this price point or with this level of detail. They have to be losing money if they are seriously having that bad QC on the pf printings.

Or maybe not. MB might be the most difficult playfield to screen of all time. It's all easier and more efficient from here..

#4677 83 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

How could that possibly be? There’s tons of blank “blue” space on the PF and the characters aren’t that complex. (Guessing) I don’t think it even used that many colors

I forgot the exact number but the layers in the screening process on MB is by far the most of any modern era pin.
The monsters all next to each other on the lower playfield for one, all colored very differently..
If they wanted to do lower quality digital printing, it wouldn't matter-

But the richness of the screen print product, its CGC's calling card-
The last standing manufacturer that makes PFs the old fashioned way..

#4695 82 days ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

MB playfields have 17 screens, 11 trapped and untrapped colors. The most of any machine I have heard of. Those areas of blue are shades of blue, and there are fonts (not text but a graphics term, google it) and gradients all over the playfield.
Not sure how many of you have done any complex high tech screen printing, but I have done some R&D work screening fighter cockpit nomenclature warning light blanks and making them night vision compatible. We had several stacked screen prints but not 17, and we were using single transparent ink colors, an ir blocker, and a black dead front overspray developed using a paint formula for stealth jet fighter radar absorbing paint. And we had trouble getting 3 layers down without rejects, not 17, but our problem was light leaks, and reflected sunlight not missing text, splotchy gradients due to dust and blocked screens, or smudged artwork due to dragging the squeegee too hard or fast. And then there are all the factors that affect the quality of the image like silk size, ink viscosity, humidity, air quality, curing times, oven curing, UV curing, room temp curing. It can be hard to figure out without an experienced operator giving you pointers. We had two old ladies that had been doing the non-technical interior airline lighting screen printing for years, which was our mainstay money maker. So all those fasten seatbelt signs and lavatory occupied signs. They knew how to sling ink, and it was their expertise that let us be more sucessful with our R&D work.
Hope that helps explain a little of the complexity of the MB screening process.

THIS is the reason if you're on the fence I think you should buy a Monster Bash Remake now.

If I'm CGC, I look closely at the bottom line for the game with this playfield expense, now realized, and I definitely could get interested to retire it and move on to the next big title.

I have no view to their books, but I gotta think of all 3 games so far- this has to be the least profitable after one takes into account the licensing and playfield costs.

Medieval Madness is going back into production in the near future. Perhaps they ramp it up and ramp down MB, especially once all the LEs are out the door, before the next game comes on the like. A transition product..

#4776 80 days ago

Installed SillyOldElf side blades and Glow titans.
Can't believe these blades didnt come with the LE.
Oh well, looks great on the SE

IMG_20190328_183450 (resized).jpg

#4825 78 days ago

Had to do some minor plastic removal/disassembly to do Titan conversion. Noticed two plastic black spacers from this area. I didn't even touch the Drac toy itself, where these normally are seen.

I think one came from above the front post with sleeve, front left of picture, did the second come from the back post opposite it, without sleeve, closer to the shooter lane?

IMG_20190330_132517 (resized).jpgMVIMG_20190330_132532 (resized).jpg

#5024 71 days ago
Quoted from metal-mods:

Spring Washer= .50id x .875od Found a pic on Marco, attached, but you could probably get at your local hardware store.
I installed mine at bottom of coil, but it probably doesn't matter which end. Once you lift playfield, grab that coil and start wiggling it. You'll see that there's a ton of slop. The spring washer will eliminate that.
[quoted image]

I'm guessing this should be obvious but to me it's not. Can you show a picture of where this goes, or describe it better? Do I pull out the metal arm and thread it through, so the washer ends up resting above the coil? My mechanic talents are limited and not at all intuitive. A picture is even better.

#5069 69 days ago
Quoted from netman63129:

I can confirm that the washer helps the SDTM scoop issue. I had the same question about installation but I figured it out. You will notice that the coil mechanism has a lot of back and forth play within the bracket that holds it. This causes it to occasionally misfire. To fix this, lift up the playfield, there are 2 screws on the bottom side of the scoop mechanism. You need to remove these completely and the coil/piston will be free and removable. You can now place the washer, over the piston and between the coil and the metal bracket that holds it in place. Then reinstall and screws and tighten the bracket so that there is no more play. I hope this helps.

I just did it, but something tells me I need to put even a second in there. Performance is much improved, but coil doesn't seem locked down fully against the bracket and once in a blue moon still seems to go STDM or stray.

#5114 66 days ago

Update: I went for the Lermods suggested fix, and re positioned the scoop bracket while at it. Both were necessary, as just the foam before wasn't enough to dial it in. No spring washer.

Seems to work nicely now. When the plunger now "farts" the ball out it goes to the right flipper instead of STDM. This is super rare. Just be careful with the foam position or the desired safety effect won't be achieved. I put mine extremely low within the scoop.

IMG_20190411_180440 (resized).jpg

#5117 66 days ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I’m telling you guys, a small piece of foam weatherstripping on the right inside of the scoop is all that is needed to avoid sdtm.

On my game it wasn't enough. Needed to reposition the coil/bracket. Obviously scoop assembly itself isn't moving/necessary to move at all.

1 week later
#5296 59 days ago

Really sad to leave the club much too soon but a new business venture awaited I needed the funds from my game for.

A bunch of SE/LE mods and related goodies are for sale. If you've been on the fence for any of these, I appreciate you helping a brother in pins out. Thanks

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/monster-bash-le-se-mods-like-new

IMG_20190416_184043 (resized).jpg

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