Ava, NY
Quoted from f3honda4me:My AFMr LE #860 has no cracked decals.
Anecdote is anecdote. :/ I am sure CGC will fix your issue though! It’s great they posted.
I am sure that they will - thank you!
(Topic ID: 222461)
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Quoted from Mdanielb:I am sure that they will - thank you!
Its great that CGC is taking steps to address this issue in moving forward, but whats the solution for the ones who have cracked decals? If history means anything they might agree to send you new decals, but nothing more?
Quoted from cheshirefilms:Understand. Yet, no one has cracked the nut as to why then for 3+ months no decal cuts surface on MBRs, then all of a sudden here they come, one NIB game after another. And never subsequent to looking good out of the box due to "cabinet shift" theory.
All that's changed that we know of for sure in that time is the weather.
20130130-132100 (resized).jpgbing (resized).pngQuoted from cheshirefilms:[quoted image][quoted image]
what exactly are you right about? I'm not convinced its weather at all....the same exact issue happened on my AFMRLE and it was delivered in the summer....these games really don't shrink or expand much with those types of temperature swings....I buy the topper theory more than anything.
Quoted from cheshirefilms:[quoted image][quoted image]
Makes sense to me .... cold vinyl decals over wood joint do not flex, rather crack. Warm decals are more forgiving.
Probably multiple factors contributing, but those are two biggies.
Quoted from CGC-Ryan:In an effort to stop all cracking on the decals, we will no longer wrap the decals around the corner. We feel that this should decrease the overall risk of potential decal splitting.
I think this was a major play in this..not weather.
Quoted from Mdanielb:Makes sense to me .... cold vinyl decals over wood joint do not flex, rather crack. Warm decals are more forgiving.
Probably multiple factors contributing, but those are two biggies.
I can buy that every decal is wrapped a bit differently since its a man made process. Some might just be a little tighter than others, which is leading to the problem.....I don't buy that temperature is the only factor here....
Quoted from PtownPin:Its great that CGC is taking steps to address this issue in moving forward, but whats the solution for the ones who have cracked decals? If history means anything they might agree to send you new decals, but nothing more?
If the defect is with how the decals were applied, what else are they supposed to do besides send new decals? Is that what they did for this issue previously with AFMr?
Quoted from PtownPin:what exactly are you right about? I'm not convinced its weather at all....the same exact issue happened on my AFMRLE and it was delivered in the summer....these games really don't shrink or expand much with those types of temperature swings....I buy the topper theory more than anything.
They changed the cabinet wrap process in a major way since AFMR. So its actually off topic to the situation in this thread.
Ive been speaking narrowly this whole time to the conditions that impact MBR..
Anyways, y'all can believe what you want to about what's to blame for the issues, however..
Its all water under the bridge now. The games impacted are being addressed, and moving forward there's not going to be cabinet wrapping- in line with the current model at Stern and/or elsewhere.
well-there-it-is (resized).jpg
Quoted from cheshirefilms:They changed the cabinet wrap process since AFMR. So its actually off topic to the situation in tbis thread.
Ive been speaking narrowly this whole time to the conditions that impact MBR..
In any event, all water under the bridge now. The games impacted are being addressed, and moving forward there's no cabinet wrapping- in line with the current model at Stern and/or elsewhere.
I agree that they have addressed the issue in moving forward, but CGC has not addressed how they are going to address the existing problems? or have they? I might have missed that part.
If it was in fact a "weather issue", How come the tears/cracks only happen in the same area/corner of the cabinet? I would assume the weather would affect other parts of the cabinet as well no?
Quoted from cheshirefilms:They changed the cabinet wrap process since AFMR. So its actually off topic to the situation in tbis thread.
Ive been speaking narrowly this whole time to the conditions that impact MBR..
In any event, all water under the bridge now. The games impacted are being addressed, and moving forward there's no cabinet wrapping- in line with the current model at Stern and/or elsewhere.
The issue with decal cracking on AFMrLE is actually NOT off topic. All that changed from AFM to MB was a reversal of the way that the decals were overlapped. The cracks were still occurring in the exact same spot, and from the same combination of causes - primarily, the vinyl over wood joint cause.
Quoted from KornFreak28:If it was in fact a "weather issue", How come the tears/cracks only happen in the same area/corner of the cabinet? I would assume the weather would affect other parts of the cabinet as well no?
They didn’t say it was only a weather issue. It was also in combination with the decal over the joint which they are no longer going to do as well.
Quoted from KornFreak28:What’s the reason for wrapping the decals around the corners when the originals were never done this way?
My theory is the elimination of a trim operation when applying the decals to save on labor cost. Not overlapping them means they have to trim both mating decals at the edge instead of just trimming the last one applied. Doubles the time cost per decal on the trim operation. And mind you, they will probably go back to overlapping when the weather gets better in Chicago, the cost savings is probably good enough to justify it if it is seasonally dependent. I know I would. Their assembly line instructions will add a line that says if production is between the months of x and y, corners are to be trimmed and not wrapped. That should reduce the problem below the 1% rate they are seeing. You know they are just trying to keep this managed to limit the negative press and minimize additional costs. A napkin calculation based on 1% reporting rate would make the cost of an ultimate solution for approximately 9 to 11 customers (if they have built anywhere near the 70 machines a week rate they were looking to achieve) would probably be a little less than one MBrLE shipped. Not sure how much time and at what rate the added trim op costs them per machine, but you can guarantee a bean counter somewhere in Chicago is calculating the difference.
Quoted from Mdanielb:The issue with decal cracking on AFMrLE is actually NOT off topic. All that changed from AFM to MB was a reversal of the way that the decals were overlapped. The cracks were still occurring in the exact same spot, and from the same combination of causes - primarily, the vinyl over wood joint cause.
It is. That makes all the difference, the tensions and the tolerances changed with the new wrap process, and its been holding up fine with every MBr game sold so far, including with pounding on location.
Drop a week of -20 degrees on Chicago/elsewhere on a week's worth of deliveries and, well, the rest is history and now, future history.
No more wrapped cabinets..
Quoted from f3honda4me:They didn’t say it was only a weather issue. It was also in combination with the decal over the joint which they are no longer going to do as well.
Obviously, CGC thinks this is the ultimate solution, or they wouldn't propose.
Quoted from cheshirefilms:It is. That mades all the difference, the tensions and the tolerances, and it being fine with every game including with pounding on location. Drop a week of -20 degrees and Chicago/elsewhere and, well, the rest is history and now, future history. No more wrapped cabinets..
You do realize that the reason why they are going to halt wrapping decals around the corner is because that wood joint is there ... right?
Quoted from Mdanielb:Obviously, CGC thinks this is the ultimate solution, or they wouldn't propose.
I wonder why they didn't stop this practice when AFM started tearing a year ago? I wonder why they kept wrapping decals around the corners with MB? They should've stopped with AFM.
Quoted from KornFreak28:I wonder why they didn't stop this practice when AFM started tearing a year ago? I wonder why they kept wrapping decals around the corners with MB? They should've stopped with AFM.
I will say this that the wrapped decal looks much cleaner, but its clearly not worth the risk
Quoted from KornFreak28:I wonder why they didn't stop this practice when AFM started tearing a year ago? I wonder why they kept wrapping decals around the corners with MB? They should've stopped with AFM.
I agree. They should have stopped. They probably had to reach some threshold where continuing with the status quo was more costly than changing process.
Quoted from PtownPin:I will say this that the wrapped decal looks much cleaner, but its clearly not worth the risk
Looks cleaner and was cheaper than a double trim operation. No argument to WHY they tried wrapping the corner, but the results have had mixed reviews... 
Quoted from Mdanielb:I just got one of the last Ghostbusters produced in December. Both the front decal, and the side decals are cut back a good quarter inch from the corner, and the corner is rounded off. I don't find this a terribly pleasing install, but I agree - better than busted up artwork!
[quoted image]
I wouldn't expect less from Stern 
Quoted from PtownPin:what exactly are you right about? I'm not convinced its weather at all....the same exact issue happened on my AFMRLE and it was delivered in the summer....these games really don't shrink or expand much with those types of temperature swings....I buy the topper theory more than anything.
The topper has been shipping with the game without cabinet incidents for months.
The extreme weather impacted the decal at the joint.
Quoted from Bublehead:One thing the Navy taught me to do as nuclear ractor operator was think outside the box, or on top of it
But honestly, when looking to solve issues like this, you gather as much info as possible, brainstorm all potential possibilities and then construct and conduct investigations that eliminate each possibility. Do we see CE’s and SE’s with decal cracks, no?, so why LE’s? The topper shipping box et. al. and it's 40 pounds of dead weight is a HUGE floating mass at the HIGHEST distance from mother earth, which is like the absolute worst combination. This would be on my list of “possibilities” along with “heat embrittlement” if they use hair dryers in the decal applying process, or “chemical embrittlement” if they use solvents for ANY cleaning operation, vinyl does not like some solvents and can become brittle when exposed to them. These three are the biggest what if’s on the list to be explored- phisical cause, thermal cause, or chemical cause. It falls into one of those three more than likely, so now figure out how to eliminate each one. That can take time, which is something CGC is already having a problem with on LE deliveries.
My SE is now cracked. It was not cracked when I got it NIB.
Quoted from drummermike:My SE is now cracked. It was not cracked when I got it NIB.
Quoted from cheshirefilms:The topper has been shipping with the game without cabinet incidents for months.
The extreme weather impacted the decal at the joint.
I don't buy it ..... even at a 50 degree drop in temp the expansion at that joint is minimal to almost nothing....I do buy however that the some of the wrapping was tighter than others which caused the issue.....these games get moved around a lot more while playing versus temp drops....
Quoted from f3honda4me:If the defect is with how the decals were applied, what else are they supposed to do besides send new decals? Is that what they did for this issue previously with AFMr?
Yep....u either live with the issue or apply the decals yourself, which I suspect most don't as its a pain in the ass
Question ?? How come no issues with MMR ???
I think there’s moisture in the plywood and it’s drying out , also the legs over tighning can put pressure on the lower portion of cabinet and opening at top
Essex, ON
Sydney
Quoted from whitey:Question ?? How come no issues with MMR ???
I think there’s moisture in the plywood and it’s drying out , also the legs over tighning can put pressure on the lower portion of cabinet and opening at top
There were some issues reported with early MMR’s. Didn’t seem to be as many though.
Quoted from mtp78:Question for potential buyers. How many games with wrapped corners are sitting on the assembly line or already boxed sitting in their warehouse . How can we be assured were getting games with the updated decal process.....
I figure it's like a lottery. You bought the ticket..and you hope you win.
Quoted from Tradesman:I guess I don't fully understand, but wouldn't the single layer decal still be covering the joint even if its not wrapped around the corner?
The wrapped corner anchors the decal at one end and stretches it. By ending at the corner, the only hinderence to that 1/4” strip of decal moving is just its adhesive, not being physically anchored by the other decal. This will let it “float” over that cabinet seam and possibly tear less. Or so the thinking goes.
Quoted from PtownPin:I can buy that every decal is wrapped a bit differently since its a man made process. Some might just be a little tighter than others, which is leading to the problem.....I don't buy that temperature is the only factor here....
I don’t buy the cold weather theory. I had a NIB AFMrSe and it had cracked decals. It was delivered in July. There was plenty of warm weather crackin going on.
Quoted from CGC-Ryan:We have been proudly building cabinets since 1977 for nearly every pinball manufacturer and take great pride in what we build. Every game goes through multiple levels of quality control to ensure that the game going into the box is of the highest standards. We understand what the pinball community demands from a NIB game.
I want to let everybody know that this is only a decal issue and not an issue with the cabinet construction. We have built hundreds of thousands of cabinets utilizing the same corner joints and have had remarkably few issues
can you comment on why you changed the cabinet joint style to this lap joint vs the flush joint that was used for decades? I get it when you were building other people's cabinets that might have a cost point to drive.. but this is your own stuff.
Quoted from flynnibus:can you comment on why you changed the cabinet joint style to this lap joint vs the flush joint that was used for decades? I get it when you were building other people's cabinets that might have a cost point to drive.. but this is your own stuff.
Going to go out on a limb here, but probably because the tooling to cut the one joint is more expensive than the tooling to cut the current lapped rabbet joint design. I belive you can cut the latest joint using a rabbet saw, where the locked mitered 45 joints require a shaped router bit and are routed. You can bet it is a cost savings decision.
Here are my MBRLE and AFMLE corners. AFMRLE after almost 18 months and MBRLE after over a month. So far no cracks. Did I just get lucky? To those that got tears after delivery, do you guys move your games around? What's the temp and humidity in your gamerooms? It would be nice to understand this better.
20190205_194525 (resized).jpg20190205_194534 (resized).jpg20190205_194518 (resized).jpg20190205_194509 (resized).jpgThe wood is under tension by the decal. Eventually the decal gives. I don’t think this is because of some expansion or contraction... especially along that edge. My guess is that this isn’t going to happen suddenly months later... failure would likely be fairy quick. Mine has a slight split on the top left side ... I have no idea how long it’s been there. I’ve had the game for almost 2 months
0105DAFC-0108-47A5-90AC-F1478945DE7C (resized).jpegFwiw, my matching LE that I received a few weeks ago is not exihibiting any cracks of the decals shown here.
Quoted from flynnibus:can you comment on why you changed the cabinet joint style to this lap joint vs the flush joint that was used for decades? I get it when you were building other people's cabinets that might have a cost point to drive.. but this is your own stuff.
My guess is CCC havnt changed their cabinet style of joint, I have a CFTBL that has the same style joint and a Taxi and all my Sterns and DE pinballs.
The cabinets that have the 45 degree angle joint I have come from Lenc-Smith
Being a craftsman, I can give some insight on this issue. Decals (aka stickers) do not adhere well to wood. You have 2 options when adhering a decal to wood. Make it super sticky to last or make it flexible softer stickiness to be flexible. It’s tough to find a happy medium. In this case, I feel CGC maybe used a decal that was too sticky to make them last. But unfortunately any movement in the wood (which there will always be) would cause a weak point in the decal.
I am still patiently waiting on my MBrLE (non-matching). Hopefully CGC will have a positive solution to this issue. It is very tricky to say the least for those who don’t understand decal adhesion to fiberous wood. Positive thinking for the future!
They should go back to silk screen. More true to the original and unlike anything you can get today!
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:come from Lenc-Smith
If this is the case, then my apologies to CGC.
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