Industry practice? This is certainly not widely known or publicized to pinball buyers by other manufacturers.

I will meet with Ryan on Monday and discuss how we can best disclose the differences in playfield standards between different models.

The difficulty is in distilling playfield quality standards down to a single bullet point on a sell sheet or even a more lengthy written definition.

It is still somewhat subjective. We continually try to formalize the definition of an acceptable playfield. Even months into production, Ryan and I are still called to the line almost on a daily basis to make the final call whether a specific playfield meets quality standards.

LCD panel manufacturers grade the quality of a panel using the specific number of dead pixels (A grade = 4 dead pixels, B grade = 8 dead pixels, etc). The number of dead pixels is quantifiable. That information is easily placed on a product data sheet. Grading playfields isn’t as easy.

I like the diamond analogy previously used. With both playfields and diamonds you are starting with raw materials formed by nature and not uniform synthetics. Both require skilled craftsmen to transform the raw materials into the final product. The variance in raw materials plus the variance introduced by human inconsistency yield a certain percentage of A, B and C grade products. Higher grade diamonds command higher prices. Surprisingly, well less than .01% of diamonds are graded as flawless. I suspect the percentage of flawless playfields occur at a similar rate to diamonds - I believe this to be true for all pinball machine manufacturers.

The challenge is in understanding and defining what is acceptable.

For every playfield that makes it into a game, there are a high percentage that are scrapped or reprocessed. We are not putting subpar playfields into any of our games.

We have shipped nearly four hundred non-LE Monster Bash. I believe we have only had three service tickets opened for playfield issues. With few expections, SE and CE customer feedback has been very positive.

Honest conversations can be uncomfortable but often lead to good things. I certainly gained a better understanding of what’s important to our customer.

Different levels of acceptance terminology should not be blown out of proportion. It's the backlash from pinside that makes some manufactures reluctant on making public announcements here in this forum. I have received a dozen or so Monster Bash SE's and CE's. I have not had a single playfield or service related issue with any of our games. Not saying that one might not come up in the future but as of now each one of them have been perfect. I have had some Le versions from other pinball manufactures with playfield issues. Ghosting, planking and more. I know the frustration from purchasing a high end pin and being let down with a sub par playfield. Playfield swaps are not fun and or cheap. As a consumer we should thank CGC for taking there time to get this right. I have a long history of purchasing CGC products and by far they are one of the best companies for amusement manufacturing and customer service. Congratulations on yet another fantastic game in your line up.

Jonathan Demare
Amusement Services of America

^

Great news. Feb 1st isn't that far away. Can't wait

Once all LE’s are made, the SE’s and CE’s will have a good chance of getting a “superior” PF because all levels of PF will be put into production (excluding really bad ones).

And I’m as picky as the next guy when it comes to NIB game quality. But even then I have to laugh that we’re all so worried about these really minor “flaws” on our new PF and then proceed to chuck 4 metal balls in and smash them around at ridiculous speeds without a care for what it’s doing to the PF.

Very impressive response. Well said.

Some of you people should seriously consider changing to coin collecting.

Guys, PLEASE give CGC a break.

They are an honorable company and produce pinball machines that are, overall, of amazing build quality.

Whether you have bought a CE, SE or LE, if you have noticeable playfield issues, I have no doubt that CGC will take very good care of you, by whatever means it takes to make it right.

I applaud Doug and Ryan for even having the courage to post on here, knowing the backlash that would occur.

If the Pinside community continues to bash CGC, it could well lead to CGC saying that, going forward, they will never disclose wait times, quality issues or anything else on Pinside and who could blame them?

I couldn't disagree more, actually. CGC did great with their disclosures, and so did we.

Yes, Pinside can be toxic at times, but this particular dialogue was open, honest and thoughtful on both sides. Maybe some threads havent been, but this thread wasn't some blind, pointless backlash. Where a few like you maybe saw banter, I saw progress.

While the narrative took an unexpected detour- CGC's transparency is a feather in their cap and the exact opposite of the duck-and-cover model I saw from Stern during the Ghostbusters debacle.

Businesses often pay a lot to learn how to help their customers. They couldn't have gotten this great of an experience from an actual focus group, and this one was free to own.

Had they instead filtered and hid some secret coded message behind their distributor network, this wouldn't have happened, and the LE customers would be no happier either.

This IS great business..

I agree. I'd like to be informed even if it's bad news, or worse news. I'm not canceling my order (and I still have no idea when to expect it). One thing I do get tired of is hearing people who already have their games with no issues telling everyone else to chill out. I don't think asking for communication and transparency on such a big purchase is asking a lot. I'm glad they've clarified their position. I'm looking forward to my game, but I still think there's a lot of room for improvement.

I’ll admit this whole thing irked me a bit when I read the first response. But then I backed off a bit and thought...

I really don’t care.

I love my machine. It’s brand friggin new and CGC makes an awesome product! I mean 5 or 10 years down the road... am I going to be haggling over how much it’s worth because it’s an SE and may not have the “best grade” playfied as an LE... no friggin way, thats absurd!

To me LE means better finishings...and if that means maybe the playfield is deemed “better” <- totally subjective.. then so be it. I think there are a lot more consumers in this space now ... and pinball collectors can be fanatical. I like nice things but I don't want to become to nuts about things otherwise I'm missing out on the fun of all of it.

In the mean time there are 4 steel balls that are going to beat the shit out of this game for as long as I own it.

I'm really enjoying this thread. The way grown men can get so worked up over a toy is beyond me. Thanks for the laughs.

Pinside needs 5 more ratings to get MBr on the list.

I got my SE for the upgraded figures, sound and display. I added the shaker, side art and the plasma light. I have no room for a topper and would not want it anyway. The blue armor is nice but not needed. I do not like the lock down bar.

I am very impressed with the honesty and timely reponse, thank you CGC. I am waiting on my LE, and I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes. I would have preferred not paying in full like I was asked to if I knew it was going to be Feb-March before I get my pin, but that's not going to sour my excitement for what appears to be a beautiful pin that for years most of us thought would never be obtainable without paying an absurd price for.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-monster-bash-limited-edition-4

Used MBr LE for sale already. Here’s your chance to buy one and not have to wait.

Ok the following is way too long but I feel I was instrumental in being the squeeky wheel that brought this about and need to post this...

I feel sorry for CGC, they are getting it from both sides and I don’t think that we have been fair.

The “can of worms” that was opened up here was the mere mentioning of a difference between quality of the build of each trim level, with people seemingly now concerned their CE or SE or even a number matched LE may have a “sub par” playfield in it. Not that you would have been able to know, actually looking at your new machine when you got it, if it had any minor defects or not, since most have no clue what an “acceptable” defect looks like compared to a “LE rejectable” defect, how this determination is made, when it is made, and what becomes “usable” in which trim level of machines.

@doug_duba, thanks for letting us know to what extent CGC is grading their playfields. Historically, Churchill Cabnets knows how to make and grade playfields and even other playfield reproduction manufacturers know there are “levels” of playfield quality, or why have the differing levels gold, silver and bronze? And yes, if people look close at the old B/W playfields used in real originals, they will find ALL KINDS of defects. B/W never graded their playfields based on any trim level, they just sent the good ones down the line first, leaving the worst to be used as scrap wood around the factory or some are stripped and rescreened, and the ones with minor defects left for the end of the run. This made machines rolling off the line first usually the best machines in the run, at least as far as the playfields were concerned. Ops didn’t and still don’t give a dead rats ass if there are “minor” flaws in the playfield screening. Does it play pinball? Does it make money?, then ship that puppy.

I feel the same way now as I did back then. Nothing has changed, nothing to see here, just standard old pinball. That they are making sure my LE has as nice a pf as possible is wonderful, but if the quality of CE and SE playfields are better than OG MB playfields, can any of the trim level buyers complain and say their “recreation” is “sub par”? Be it a CE, SE, or an LE.

“Collectors” and flippers are really ruining this hobby in my mind. I always thought it was cool to have a pin in my home to play. That it was a little hammered when I bought it just meant it had given a lot of people a lot of fun before I got it. Those who want to eat off the damn playfield after owning it for 10 years are idiots, and those buying one and trying to keep it pristine are just as foolish. I buy my pins to play, like ops buy them to make money. It’s an amusement device first and foremost. You want to collect something, try stamps or coins because keeping a collectors car without driving it, a collectors gun without shooting it, or a “collectors” pinball machine without playing it is the purest form of rich man snobbery that turns my stomach. I have the money for a NIB MBrLE, I put my money down, I am waiting now, patiently, for CGC to deliver a MB experience for me like no other I ever expected to have, owning my own Monster Bash.

I’m totally fine if my SE has some minor playfield coloring defects, it never crossed my mind and would not have swayed me either toward or away from an LE. It’s nice that Cgc has a discerning eye, but I think for most people, they will never find the defects. It’s not like we are talking about ghostbusters type issues.

Yep I agree. It's really a no win situation for CGC. It's easy to sit here and say communication is the most important thing (and personally I still believe it is) but you can see why as a company they might not want to make a public announcement when now they suddenly have a bunch more complaints about things that most buyers would never have even noticed if it hadn't been pointed out to them. While I agree it might not be "common knowledge" that the best playfields are used in LE's regardless of manufacturer, is it really that big a surprise, or even a concern as long as the lower models still have some QC and are getting nice looking playfields too?

I figured I would post and tell everybody that CGC sent me a direct message asking for my details (when I paid, matching LE #, distributor name, etc...)...he then looked into the issue, and informed me (very quickly) that my game was on the line, and would be shipped next week. The only tidbit I found interesting is that CGC won't start building your game until your paid in full (matching LE's only). Apparently due to issues they had with customers not paying for their AFMRLE's in a timely manner so I totally get it. This is actually important very information as the delay from payment to delivery would be longer. In the future communicating this to the distributor would be wise.

Can't believe someone is already parting with their new LE !! That was a quick honeymoon

I am happy mine maybe here tomorrow and I missed all the talk on play fields.
Hope it looks great and I am sure I’ll enjoy it. Play field is a bit disheartening for some and I get it.
Pinball machines have gone up in price so some people expect better quality. I get it and if a person
wants to put a dipper on it, it’s their money and their right, until you start ponying up the cash
for them to buy a game then it’s really none of your business. It doesn’t belong to you anyway so if they want to complain
about their high dollar toy so be it.

Can I have that one?

Just kidding! Great job CGC! Can’t wait to get my machine!! I’ll wait as long as it takes....I did wait 9months for my son; and that was beyond worth it!

My parents waited 9 months for me. They're beyond pissed!!

This wasn't the case for my matching LE. It was at my distributor's shop when asked for final payment. Unboxed it a week later.

I suspect your distributor paid prior to CGC building the game. I think some don't have the credit or cash flow, and rely on customers paying first.

We only build specific serial number matching LEs when the distributor indicates the customer has paid or when the distributor is willing to take the game into their inventory.

Ideally we are only building product that can immediately ship.

Could these be the type of playfield issues in question? (Playfield pics of a LE) Honestly I didn't notice these until I started looking closer after the CGC post. Are these serious deal breakers for people?

20190120_174234 (resized).jpg

20190120_174620 (resized).jpg

The takeaway I got today is that the grading differences are mostly imperceptible to the human eye, and not as big of a deal as I previously thought.

We aren't talking a Ghostbusters ghosted insert here, a crazed insert there, stuff that can "do in" a playfield in time, get out the door to an unlucky SE owner kind of thing.

Playfields with those kinds of "acceptable" defects at Stern would be firewood at CGC even in a CE. Automatically. A couple ink dots overprinted from the screen in remote areas of the game probably aren't this level of problem issue. Your game is and will stay amazing. If only the originals had it so perfect.

If you see an objectively major issue on arrival, and it makes you really unhappy, talk to CGC about it. This is still a human run business, and unacceptable playfield defects in their eyes can still sneak through an intensive, human led screening process, even on the LEs. Super duper unlikely! But very caring and passionate pinball people standing behind their products.

I admit I was taken aback badly hearing about the multiple levels at first, thinking many SE and CE owners had been bucked from a chance at an amazing playfield because they spent less, but not now that I know how close to the page they look with this sort of thing. And that the bar for a dud is set extremely low. It's not the level of scrutiny what we're used to from other manufacturers.

Don't think so, see above post

Here’s the thing on these pics above, if my LE comes looking like that, push the credit button folks, because we are going to play us some f*cking Monster Bash!

I've had my SE for over a month and I haven't noticed any issues with the playfield. Only issue I've had with the game is with the scoop protector getting seriously bent out of shape.

So impressed with CGC. Pretty sure I'll be buying most any pin they release in the future too

For those interested I created some cool new Monster Bash Target Decals. I wanted something awesome for my new MBR pin! My friend owns a MB original and he loves them. I posted them in the marketplace as well. I crafted these to have the open hole well for the target rivet for flush mounting.

$30 a set.

I have 16 left for this run. (edited) Now I have 13 left in this run.

Hit me up if interested.

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/74024

MBR_Decals_ADsml (resized).jpg

Apologies if this is mentioned/buried somewhere in the 100's of postings on this thread, (I did a search but did not find a reference) but I was really happy with the MB pin blades I got for my SE. They are made by a guy in England who on Pinside is known as SillyOldElf. Colors are well blended and his scenes correspond with the sections of the PF. We put these on last night and they are gorgeous. He ships from England so some extra time needed for it to arrive, but I think totally worth the wait. https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1073-sillyoldelf-mods. My photos don't do the blades justice, but here is an idea of what they look like. If you have NEVER put blades on before, do yourself a favor and watch some of the youtube videos. We prefer the soapy water in a spray bottle method.

IMG_1121 (resized).JPG

IMG_1122 (resized).JPG

IMG_1126 (resized).JPG

These blades have been on my mint original MB for a long time now; they look like they shipped with the game. Absolutely outstanding attention to detail and colour; a PERFECT match to the art, which is not always the case with these type of blades.

sillyoldelf has also recently
Made them longer so they completely fit the side area of the game. Day 1 purchase. And he ships Fast!

Those look great! You guys have me thinking about switching to the SE now, lol. Seriously I do like everything about the SE it probably makes more sense to get that model than the LE (even with all the bantering about PFs). But for some reason I really can't get away from the topper, the plasma disc (yes its repro'ed already), the extra warranty and I even like the blue PC. Wish I didn't have to choose, tough call for sure.

someone sells a second hand mbr ce or se for 6500 used,buyer says 6000 as they have subpar playfield compared to an le.yes it may sound like trolling but when a company isnt upfront about this b4 shipping se-ce's its deceptive to say the least.as the fact you opened ya mouth leaves you open to deserved criticism.least stern or jjp arnt stupid enuf to disclose this,wheres the my le vs ce/se memes ,and ive talked to the people from cgc in usa re mmr playfield and he sounded like used car salesmen(excuses when ya complain) hence id never touch anything from cgc again

I had posted my pics of sillyoldelf decals before -
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/monster-bash-remake-mbr-owners-club/page/29#post-4744186

Just want to add that I think it would be a good idea
to get the interior side cabinet protectors like these from pinball life
https://www.pinballlife.com/interior-cabinet-protector-blade-set.html

to save your decals from getting scraped up. well worth the investment

You are trolling and also rambling in an owners thread.
CGC has been arguably more upfront than any other manufacturer period.
Move along

wow! That post looked like it was written by an 8 yr old! How about go graduate high school first buddy! Lol. Anyways. I’m on the list for a non-matching LE since day one. Yes, the wait sucks. And yes, CGC could have been more up front about delays. HOWEVER, no matter what they said about the delay, someone with a CE/SE would have complained! If they would have said “oh, we found a small issue with a drop target”, then every CE/SE owner would have chimed in saying “I have a problem with that”. The fact that they owned the issue, addressed the issue & are fixing the issue is huge! Take a deep breath! We are all pretty lucky in my book for having the $8k of disposable income to buy a “toy”! Patiently waiting in AZ!!

Totally agree. I was one of the people saying I wished they would communicate more. And they did. They delivered, and pulled back the curtain a bit and I am very much appreciative. I was on the fence about continuing with my order, but based on the transparancy alone I have a lot of faith in this company to deliver a stellar product. Communication is King. Yes, I understand people's point of view about not being able to make an informed decision in advance about the playfields vs trim level, but based on the examples of less than perfect playbills I've seen posted (the little black dots) I think people are getting way worked up over nothing. Seriously are we going to start grading these pinball machines like comic books? "Selling a MBR LE - I had it sent in for CGC grading and it's a 9.5! $20k firm." Lol. I want my game to look nice and play perfectly. I don't want issues, delaminating, warping, or stuff breaking. I want it to play flawlessly and I do want the cliffy protectors to protect the playfield. Beyond that - I could care less about a few little black dots.

https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/monster-bash-limited-edition

Then everyone should go out there and rate their games so we can have MBr enter the 100 List!

Right on. The playfield quality question raised was not about who- if anyone- had paid for the right to be free of a couple errant little black dots. That's what people who thought mindless pinside MBr owner CGC bashing was occuring failed to see.

It was about whether *real* issues like insert and clear problems were deemed SE or CE acceptable, because this is the lower quality standard we're kind of used to from other companies.

Such a thing would make sense to most of us, as the reason for holding up the LEs. And a perfectly valid concern, especially on the SE, a model that just as much as LE games (by and large), have been going into collector's homes. But this wasn't the reason for the LE delay. The shades of gray in playfield quality were so close to the page that nearly no one else on planet Earth would possibly know. But to CGC, they mattered, and they were worth fighting for.

So now that we know that material flaws are NOT acceptable to CGC, even for the CE level games, the effective mutual communication has resolved this concern once and for good.

If you have an actual major issue- rare, but possible- anything's possible with a handmade product- open a ticket and they'll make it right. Good stuff, great games

My SE is beautiful. I hope everyone is happy with their games when they arrive.

Loving our new LE.
It is stunning.
Only had two minor issues out of the box.
The left sling was on a hair trigger making it impossible to just cradle the ball directly from a Creature kickout.
Made the gap a little wider on the switch blades and it works like a champ now.
Sometimes the ball will fly off the bal launch at the end and not go all the way around to the pops.
Still have not figured this one out yet, but am suspecting the bend in the metal blade again like on AFM.

I received my LE last Thursday and has been playing amazingly! I'm very impressed with the quality of the machine and couldn't be happier.

I have 2 complaints. The first complaint is the same issue that Arcade is having. The ball will come out of the shooter lane and instead of going into to pops, it rejects. Can't tell if it is a gate issue but it has only happened 4 or 5 times out of the 100+ games my family put on it this weekend so it's hard to pinpoint BUT I've already talked to CGC and they are on top of it.

Last complaint is kind of a stupid one but I wish a Monster Bash key fob came with the pinball machine. I know it is really dumb but I like having a key fob from the specific pin for the key to tell the difference between my keys to my pins. I wouldn't mind so much if I could just buy a key fob online but apparently they are non existent for Monster Bash

Overall not only am I impressed with Monster Bash and it's quality but I'm impressed with CGC as well!