I think the biggest payoffs in LOTR would be to get 2x scoring from GotE just before starting TABA. Big time points available doing that.

The modes are not easy to start, need to build elf rings to do so, not just make a shot to start mode. Each mode does a well above average job of using a lot of the PF in interesting ways and can be stacked with multiballs and some gifts. Gifts add further modes/multiballs. Multiball modes are extremely unique in their workings, and all offer further jackpots and victory laps.

All multiballs and modes can be stacked, mutliple MBs as well. Gollum is better suited to restart MBs rather than before as you noted, unless it's right before TTBA. There are multiple mini wizard modes (DTR, TTBA, super ring multiball frenzy MB). There are many little extras, bash balrog, mystery, Ring Frenzy, Palantir etc. The physical shots are unique above most machines, in the ring shot launching a ball through the air into a magnet, the cave shot, where a perfect shot generally goes straight through, and doesn't stick.

All has to be timed right as well, as starting up a MB say before your 2nd DTR may make getting to your 3rd DTR, and possibly valinor much more difficult.

The stacking with all possibilities, especially with 2x scoring is crazy. I have had a super ring multiball frenzy MB (7th gift) going one time where I was hitting jackpots over 16m a piece.

LOTR has incredible depth, in the amount to do, the ways you can stack it, and in how to further extend each mode/MB, and how to better maximize your chance to get to Valinor. Keith Johnson is a pinball software genius. TSPP and LOTR are the only reasons I'm buying WOZ.

MB was the precurser PF design to LOTR, but there is no depth. Fun, frustrating when you can't line up the planets like you hoped, but it's no LOTR.

Buy 2 LOTR's for the price of a MB
MB is a great game that comes with a premium.....

I'm still waiting for the 84x multiplier by hitting Triple Jackpot 7 during Two Towers Multiball, stacked with 2x playfield, and double Gollum scoring.

Is that right? I have only played lotr at an airport once,so i wouldn't know.I have not seen the movies either.

I thought tz was the humourless champ.

"Stick him behind the knee laddy"

That line cracks me up everytime in Witch King mode. I'm saying it for an hour after I hear it every time.

LOTR, no doubt.

Hrmm.. most games require a shot to relight mode start. LOTR instead has 'lots of shots' that can relight mode start. Instead of requiring a specific hard shot.. it dumbs down and the elf ring can be one of many.. and instead of making it difficult (like needing the combo) you can just limp through it too. I don't find this to be depth.. it's actually easier than the previous standard of 'must make the shot' to light modes.

I don't find 'hit the all the lit jackpots - then repeat' all that unique. The only one that deviates from that is fellowship. I like the multiplier potentials.. and add-a-ball is fun.. but is another reason people think the game dumbs down a bit. The MBs are the typical 'everything is lit for jackpot' instead of giving a specific difficult objective.

A bit of a stretch there... The movie multiballs can not be stacked with each other.. and only one mode can be running at a time. You can have a movie multiball, a mode, and one gift/hurry-up running at a time. The odd man out there that doesn't fit that rule is gollum which I really like as a accessible twist to how you want to score and do add-a-ball. That angle I really like. The multiplier effect in two towers is nice too.. but it's still a 'shot anything' type of mode.

The extra 'completion' modes I'll give you as a solid benefit. DTR is a great concept.. especially the bash the held ball. The rest.. those are just like the mystery awards in every other game.. some hurry-ups, some 'hit the target' mini-mode, etc.

I think my complaint may be that LOTR just rewards 'hit anything' all too much and besides missing valinor (which lets be honest.. isn't a real factor in 99.999% games) there is little penalty for not completing an objective. The biggest risk is blowing your gift multiplier.

MB on the other hand... start that multiball wrong..or fail to get that mode start in first.. and you really penalize yourself. It very much is 'setup.. setup.. try to maximize' and if you blow it.. you really blow it.

Multipliers in LOTR grow on trees..

*PLONK!!!*

This sounds nitpicky to me. There's tons to do in LOTR and tons of ways to do them. Plus additional modes for competing goals. I also wouldn't say that LOTR rewards "hit anything" too much at all. You can't just hit anything for Ring Wraiths, can't just hit anything for Ents, can't just hit anything Witch King... I feel there's very little "just hit anything". Two Towers sure, but each shot unlights reducing the amount of shots left to keep your combo going. If LOTR doesn't have depth, then very few pins do.

For me

for competition lord ,for fun MB

It requires three shots, either by CHANGING elf shots, or the ring, then to hit the ring again to start the mode. Other than Maverick, there is no machine I can think of that has a more to do in starting a mode than LOTR. Hence, depth.

Typical everything is lit?? TTT has everything lit, and compounds jackpots if you unlight each in a certain time limit, or they reset.

Fellowship requires balrog then ramp shots to pass each character across the bridge.

RTK as four shots that have to be hit in line, then resets.

They are all unique, and have been the basis for many future stern machines, which in fact have dumbed this idea down / drowned it out.

I have never heard anyone refer to LOTR as "dumbed down" in any way shape or form.

You can stack a movie with a mode, and ring frenzie, super ring frenzie (multi), and modes with ring multiball. Gollum, as you noted, adds man options to everything, and is the only thing stackable with TTBA, which makes that MUCH easier to complete.

I have had up to 4 things stacked at once. Hence, it's a great stacker.

TTT isn't a hit anything. Sure that is how it starts, but it's made to hit a few easy ones, from whatever side is easy, and then within the time constraint, pick the remainders, and this is where the points build. Great idea, where a noob can feel like they are accomplishing something, just as an experienced player can by getting deeper.

Super Ring Multiball Fenzie MB is awesome as well, as the 7th gift. The rest are random awards, but work well gelled with everything, and add to the depth as a whole as additional things available / to do. The planitir is a great addition, and does something for almost every mode / MB, mostly more time and add a ball, but very very important to have lit before starting anything IMO. That is something quite unique. All this adds to the depth of what these rules offer.

No penalty for no completing an objective? Few games have such a system for this in the gifts as LOTR. Without completion of 7 things, you can't reach Valinor. It's more important for completions over any other machine IMO.

What games other than TSPP do you consider deeper than LOTR?

No, it requires 'three lights' of elf. Hit any lit elf.. and yes at times it's down to one, but hit that and then ANY combo and you're there. Is it that different than every other game of 'hit the bank three times to open the bank'? The shot 'moves' but that's about it. The 'hit any combo' award of 2 rings makes it pretty easy.

Contrast this with many other games that require an objective to lite the jackpot and then a challenging shot to collect it. LOTR rewards you for hitting 'any' shot in TTT... even if you can't complete the set of shots. RoTK isn't that much different.. just complete the set. There is extra juice in there in the sequencing.. but it still rewards 'everything is lit' mentality.

Compared to precision shot games it is. Even many SS games are more fickle in forcing you to hit something or LOSE the objective. LOTR says 'no worries man.. just keep bashing away'.

It rewards you for doing better - but still is a 'everything is lit' typical stern multiball. It does add to the approachability of the game (as you say) because everyone loves to hear 'jackpot!' but contrasted with games where collecting the jackpot is a true objective.. it's way dumbed down.

It's a mystery award just like so many other games. heck, in the discussion of MB, it too helps spot you along the way with character completes, freebies, etc.

Valinor isn't part of the discussion.. it like the mode in TSPP aren't really part of everyday play. Completions are important to advance towards valinor.. but in the other 2,000 games you play? The gifts are the true payoff. But is it that much different? Look at other games (again MB) where you need the completion to play the true wizard mode... or in STTNG to boost your rewards in Final Frontier.. or in classic games where no completion.. no big score for playing it.. any target game where missing the shot means starting over with the bank, etc.

There are a lot of games that are more technical and more precision... but don't have the scale of LOTR simply because the newer games have so much capacity than the older games. But there are countless SS and even EMs that reward and punish you for 'doing it right' vs simply 'doing something' like many of the modern sterns do.

LOTR is so approachable because it does reward so easily. It also lacks many true risk shots (sans ring ramp). So approachable, and safe playing... long play time. You don't see the game making many tournament finals... there is reason for that.

...well I'm not sure what to say, you even saying my notes on how a mode can be started are wrong, amongst other things, so this discussion is futile.

I don't agree that you can hit anything. TTT is the closest, but you lose all the strategy of picking the ones still lit if you do that, and above that, there are nothing else other than warg mode, after hitting the left ramp, where all shots are lit. Even then, you have to pick each one, just not randomly continue to hit anything.

I don't think you're find too many people agreeing that LOTR is not deep.

Wow! I just scanned through this thread and am surprised! I would have thought MB would have won by a large margin! Looks like I have to play LOTR again....

Lets be honest.. mode start light? It takes 1 combo or three shots. That's not depth - that's just run of the mill. No one calls AFM's saucer deep simply because it takes more than one shot...

Witch King is the only mode I find truly technical.. The others don't like ALL shots.. but are close enough. Ent? ok, so 3 out of 6 (or 8 if you count sam and gollum).. shelob.. shoot 6 of em in alternating sets. Warg.. shoot them all once. G&S.. basically hit the two ramps as much as you can.. Wraiths.. just hit the lit shot (plus a hurry up count). Wraiths is the most 'restricted' - yet is arguably the easiest mode to complete. WitchKing I find to be the most difficult due to the # of combos needed. There are scoring twists in there.. but which mode introduces something that is unique to the mode? Or has you do something different from the rest of the game?

You'll find plenty of people that aren't into it because they prefer card type games, or others that reward much more frugally.

So...you want the mode start to be "tougher"? What do you want here? Give me an example.

Again. What do you want here? There is only so much you can do...LOTR does a pretty good job at having unique modes. Name a couple games that do it better.

*insert owl image*

Oh Really?

http://pinball.org/videos/tournament/papa/2012-pinburgh-division-b-final-lord-of-the-rings/

Had LOTR and sold it after a few years, nice game. Still have MB after 6 years in the house. The difference is that for me MB is more fun. LOTR was more like work to me. Too long ball times and not as smooth as MB. So for fun get MB, to test your skills over and over again get LOTR.

Too long ball times can be fixed with pitch and outlane post positions (on ANY game)...smoothness IMO cannot be fixed on LOTR. Too many clunky shots for me. Even the superb software couldn't overcome that for me so I sold it.

Cody?

MB is hard to beat in the fun factor and overall presentation. The music and dots make it a fun one for sure.

Played both many times. Chose not to buy either. Like MB , fun VS price , I passed. Respect everyone for their choices . This hobby is great.

The best part about this hobby is that there are so many options. There are are games for everyone that likes pinball. And if you don't like pinball you don't have to choose any game. You're probably an asshole though.

There it is! It really bugs me when people say they don't like LOTR because of the 1.5 hour games! Shut off extra balls, open the outlanes, set everything to extra hard, increase the incline, remove the outlane rubber. If you are playing too long in a game you don't have it set up right. No, you won't get to Valinor like this, but that is ok. You will have a lot of short frustrating games where DTR is a huge accomplishment. That is the right setup. PEN has it exactly right.

MB all the way , If you have a chance to pick one up at a decent price I'd get it .
you could always pick up a lotr later.

Wow...flynnibus/atomboy...Great back and forth! Did you guys practice that?

Yes, but if I "had" to choose (and I have owned both for many years) LOTR

Both. They go great right next to one another.