I don't really care for video games, I'd rather play pinball.

No, they are stale to begin with.

I think that most of the fun in pinball is reaching a goal and completing it. If you’ve completed every mode and set all the high scores, what else is there to do? You can continue to play for fun, but most guys seems to sell and move on to the next pin.

Every pinball machine and video game has a set number of modes / levels. I think its the variety and uniqueness of those rules and the gameplay produced by them that keeps me coming back and ultimately keeps a pin in my collection. A game like The Hobbit will always stay in my collection as there's so much depth and uniqueness to the games modes. Yes one can start every mode (haven't come close personally) but its another story to beat all of them and progress through all stages of the Arkenstone modes. Same goes for other deep games like WOZ and Stern's Star Wars. Once I get a bit tired of one I switch to another until I go back to that game, lol.

I think you are wrong.

Yes

I do have a collectors mentality . I buy very selective . It very subjective on the exact pinball machine for me to hard to give a definitive answer . If Space and funds were not and object I would never sell any of the machines I have owned in the past or future . But since that is not the reality in my life . I do sell but even if I beat a pinball machine it is not a prerequisite for that machine to be sold . I may change my mind (tomorrow).

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A game whose only attraction is doing well at the modes won't last long once you've done that, but if the modes are fun to play then that can be a different story. The popular older games (EM/SS) could basically be considered one mode, but it's fun enough to play it even without beating it. I try to stay away from games where the best moments are finishing things

I feel it should be said though that there's nothing wrong with playing a game until you've seen all the sights and then selling it though. If the seeing was fun then it was worth it. There are a lot of games I love to play but wouldn't want to own.

Don;t understand this thought process at all and cannot relate.

The only thing I understand about this thread is that mode based games suck.

Some collectors don't even know what mode means. They just buy these machines so they can glue a bunch of happy meal toys all over them and say-

"Look what I did!"

No I don't understand the mentally, and never have, of somone thinking the beat a game by getting a wizard mode. It's silly, and with some games would take 1 day of playing.

That's pretty much my approach for games--to complete achievable goals, whether it's a line of 3 drop targets on EBD or rule the universe on AFM.

I like modes more than just going for points. To me, points are boring--they're just an arbitrary number. Completing a bunch of modes/quests leading up to a big finish is more interesting and engaging for me.

However, competitive play is obviously different. Focusing on modes and reaching the "end" of a game is just how I get the most enjoyment out of a game.

I really like games with a definitive ending. Like a big celebration, like WH2O, and CV. It gives me a tangible goal to work towards, and I really think it adds to the whole gaming experience.

This is about as definitive as it gets.

Pinside Top 20 is very predominantly mode based pins.... this matches closely with the enjoyment I get from playing pinball... which after having a basic level of skill is to complete specific goals and objectives. These for me are not point based but rather mode based... so that is what I look for in a keeper.

This is what I do when I beat all of the modes in a game. So far though it’s never happened and with my pinball skills it most likely never will.

Lol. At one time I was OK with mode based games, but one by one they all got kicked to the curb.

Pinball to me is all about scoring points and getting replays. On location, I don't care what the story the game is trying to tell me and whatever it is doesn't bother me, I just want to put my initials up and hear that knocker.

In home I'm a little more particular with what I want to play, and the last thing I want to do is go thru the same story over and over again. Or keep on getting halfway thru the same boring story just to start it over again. No thanks.

I kind of agree with you and somewhat feel the same way, but I also believe that modes have taken pinball to a whole new level too. I enjoy old EM’s and I enjoy a brand new TWD also. All eras of pinball are awesome I think.

They are indeed. And as mentioned mode games are great on location or in somebody elses collection.

This hobby like any others can give you moments when you can one day say I'm sick of it all and want to get rid of them all, and I've already been there. But I stopped and got to the root of that thinking and it was the stupid stories that these machines had me going thru over and over again. Fortunately there are lots of great games that don't.

This sounds like a variation on "are new games better than old ones?" I mean, can anyone give me an example of a DMD pinball game made within the last 20 years that doesn't have modes?

I’ve done a lot of things in my life, I’ve had boats, race cars, motorcycles and been involved in many more hobbies but I gotta say that I enjoy the pinball hobby more than any other thing I’ve ever been involved in probably. This is one hobby that is going to be here with me as long as I am I believe. I love it.

The newest one I own is Bram Stokers Dracula. No modes but fully addicting. Part of what brought me to this reckoning.

I was kind of curious myself about other more recent games that have no modes.

You bought BM66, it had modes!

You try playing the same four modes over and over again and see how long it lasts at your house. That also helped me come to this reckoning.

Haha that’s funny. I knew that would get you going! BM66 is shaping up to be a pretty cool game finally though. I would own one now I think if the price wasn’t ridiculous on them.

If I never hear that stupid Joker music again, I'll be good.

You forgot a step... before gluing in that happy meal toy you gotta shove an LED in it.

I like mode based games, providing the modes are not linear and there are enough of them. But I also like shooting for an objective thats hard to reach, even after I’ve reached it. Playing for points isn’t really my thing but that’s probably because I’m not that good at it.

Oh snap! BSD has a video mode! Oh nooooooo...

That's OK. It's a good one.

I've been thinking about getting another Getaway as I don't recall it having real modes. I like continuity in a game. Just plunge and go.

I am a skirt chaser . This is why I want Batman66.

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Right I understand that just fine; and DMD era I'm more of a mode guy myself.
The thing I can't relate to is what the OP is saying; "Alright I beat the game time to move to the next one."
Also, I don't understand how it's always an "either or" discussion on points versus modes; which is the classic TZ argument. LITZ is not hard to get to, but there's no point in racing to it because it isn't worth that many points.
I'm guessing by you owning so many games you've probably got the wizard mode on a couple, and have liquidated them right after

When you get better, you can focus on both and then it's really fun

Congo
Attack from Mars

Some people are going to conquer and move on. Others will find joy in playing over and over. Some people only care to watch a movie once - no matter how much they enjoyed it. Others watch the same movie dozens of times. A majority of people like doing and play and watching their favorite things over and over and over. If a pinball machine has some breadth (multiple ways to advance) then the replay value is much higher. So a good combination or breadth and depth is key.

The way we think about modes is that they are a set of objectives that can be done one at a time. However there are other "modes" that are running in concurrently with the currently selected game mode. Breadth and non-linear, sequential modes are powerful because they give you multiple things to work on at the same time and a virtually unlimited number of ways to approach the game. If you beat the game one way, try starting from a different set of objectives or starting point. I think that's what leads to a more replay-able game.

Lastly, I think some modes are just fun to hit over and over. When you're in "the zone" and the adrenaline is flowing it's fun whether you've been there before or not.

I can see "completing" a machine taking away some of it's addictiveness. When I first got my Stargate I mainly played to try and beat Eye of Ra, but once I did that I had to set new goals for myself.

Really, I think what it comes down to is how much you can do in a mode based game besides modes. If the game is pretty much only modes then yeah, it will probably get boring quick. If there's a ton of stuff to do outside the modes though, then you end up with a great mix of things to do. Play a mode, do something else, play another mode, just do whatever you want to do. When I play Stargate I tend to spend most of my time outside modes in an attempt to raise the super jackpot, earn extra balls, and complete the Stargate before reaching Eye of Ra. In each game of Lord of the Rings I usually only play 2 or 3 modes, and instead focus on multiballs, tower hits, and collecting rings.

T2? Thinking about it, Payback Time seems like a mode as does T2's multiball -> super jackpot progression. I guess we have to agree on what a mode is. As a game designer myself, I know from experience that it's very difficult to agree on these meanings. (As a thought experiment, try to define what a 'game' is.) So people are likely to disagree with what a mode is, and that's okay.

So what's a mode? Is Firepower's multiball a mode? If not, why not? Is lighting up A-B-C-D on Genie a mode? If not, why not?

I looked up mode in the dictionary and it really doesn't fit anything we are talking about here.

For me in pinball a mode or modes are the story or theme broken down into several separate pieces instead of leaving the story flow and progress as a whole.

And starting a mode is rarely a difficult task.

I would think that the "lastability" should also depend on the level of satisfaction that you have in the machines's overall flow and individual and combo shots. Even if you can complete the games' Mode objectives you may still really enjoy the shot making etc. If not then maybe it's time to move on. I find myself playing more for the flow, shots and combos than the actual modes....and then during one of those good games going back and then working to complete the modes.

I think WH2O is an interesting example. What do you consider beating the game? Getting to Wet Willy's? Getting to Vacation Jackpot? Completing all the modes? I love the game because there is plenty to do, the shots are easy, and the good games are epic. I have yet to get 5x playfield with 3x jackpots plus vacation jackpot in a single game, so even after scoring vacation jackpot the game is not 'beat'.

In general what I like about mode based games is the ability to stack the modes to maximize score, and I feel like the early 90s games provided the perfect mix of a game that's not too complex to play yet allows for strategy and choice about how you're going to put up a big score. While earlier games are just not that exciting, you have to keep the ball in play and master your shots but it's ultimately not 'strategic' and the later games ... well it seems to me that the 'you've failed' mode in Wizard of Oz has a timeout that keeps the ball in play longer than many players could keep playing a normal game.

Osric

WH2O is a great example because I think the game really has 2 separate endings. The first when the player completes stage 2 of wet willies, and the second when the player collects the vacation jackpot.

While The latter is the true finale, it was nice of the designers to still give decent players a “fake out” ending, since attaining the vacation jackpot is completely out of the realm of 99% of players. It appeases both camps: casual players, and skilled players.

It kinda reminds me of the ending for the original Metroid. 99% of players will just get to see samus remove her helmet as the big “she’s a girl!” Ending, but truly skilled players that finish the game under a certain amount of time get to see her undress down to her wonderful 8-bit bikini.

"Modes" are part of the equation, especially with post-1990 pins. Part of it is presentation, like TZ's Lost in the Zone. Or it's something like CV's finale which really does feel a bit like a video game "boss battle." But to anyone who played pinball before "wizard modes" as it were, they understand nobody "beats" a pinball game. Until you can do that consistently, you have beaten nothing.

Play Paragon or Gorgar. Those games are their own wizard modes.

To me a “mode” is any special scoring scheme started by the player through the achievement of a specific shot or series of shots (may also be randomly awarded) in which certain targets in the game become active and/or are worth additional points. A mode may end by timer, the completion of mode active targets and/or shots, or the loss of a ball.

In that regard I wouldn’t consider completing a-b-c-d a mode in itself as while it may do something like advance bonus or award points it’s not making active additional scoring options that are not already there. It could however be a trigger to start a mode.

I guess when you think about it, playing the same modes over and over again but in different order is state of the art pinball today.

Also a mode will usually (but not always) have an insert associated with it.