Quoted from pinball_keefer:It's almost like no one can hear me...
Obviously you are authoritative with info...
But what has been said on the subject before? I haven't been following.
Quoted from pinball_keefer:It's almost like no one can hear me...
Obviously you are authoritative with info...
But what has been said on the subject before? I haven't been following.
Quoted from altan:Obviously you are authoritative with info...
But what has been said on the subject before? I haven't been following.
LOL it's 2 posts above that one
I don't think anyone will have any trouble "porting" our software to a later Ubuntu except for annoying things that happen later on like switching to systemd and pulse (or now away from pulse). We do the work right now, someone else will be able to do it in the future if the need arises. I guarantee you we are not Linux experts*; it's a means to an end.
There's nothing "locked down" on the OS. No special FS or encryption** or anything like that. People have obviously "broken into" the drive because we haven't done anything special to prevent it (and believe me, we could).
Nucore is a little bit different of a case because they were doing other fun stuff like breaking GPL licenses. We have remained painstakingly compliant.
* Admittedly better than most though. We're past the first hate part and the love part, now in the eternal hate part.
** Game data notwithstanding, but the game can read it no matter what so it doesn't really matter that that's encrypted. It's not tied to the OS is my point.
Thank you extremely much for posting about this pinball_keefer
It’s great to know your thoughts.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:LOL it's 2 posts above that one
LOL is right. That was an epic fail on my part
Thanks for posting pinball_keefer !
As someone who have been digging around to find a way to modify the assets ("hearsay !!" :') For thoses with the reference... ^^), I can confirm what keefer says : it's not locked down on the OS, or tied to a particular motherboard... I even managed to get it started on a newer linux kernel... (!) I haven't tried another Ubuntu version tho.
julien_06480 said earlier "but the way you provide the software (disk image) to end user makes impossible for end users to restore on this CPU/MoBo", it's not impossible, but you need to know a bit about linux, it's not easy peasy. It could be easier idd, but I'm not worry about that part.
My main worry is about that USB dongle. I really don't like that kind of stuff while I understand the IP protection and I would do the same if Disney's contract is locked on that part (I guess, considering the POTC voices, characters, etc.!). Else, I really don't see the point of blocking modding...
For the future and if anything goes wrong with JJP, a way (according to Google) to defeat such protection is to emulate the USB Dongle on the same machine. Maybe one day someone will succeed, but I doubt it...
"I'd like to think if anything ever happened we'd release unprotected versions (I obviously cannot promise this)"
While I apreciate that mindset, we can't be sure and that's a big issue. Pinball from the 70' (50 year ago) can still be played, can we say the same in like 50 years with theses kind of hardware ?
Bumping up this thread. Has anyone managed to successfully swap/change assets on WoZ or Wonka or others? I was planning on taking a shot at it, cloning the drive, and seeing how far I can get, but would definitely like to know if anyone has figured out with step-by-step instructions.
Community mods would really help improve some of the games that are no longer being updated... for example look at what PinSound has done for the 90's games. I'm hoping one day this can be allowed/figured out.
I wonder what would happen if you replace a file with a fully unencrypted one? The security dongle may be able to identify it as fully unencrypted and just pass the raw data on to the CPU to be processed. I do believe JJP started putting integrity checks on their delta ZIP files though, to prevent tampering. Would like to see someone try.
Quoted from Crash:I wonder what would happen if you replace a file with a fully unencrypted one? The security dongle may be able to identify it as fully unencrypted and just pass the raw data on to the CPU to be processed. I do believe JJP started putting integrity checks on their delta ZIP files though, to prevent tampering. Would like to see someone try.
From reading this thread, this seems to be one of the issues. If you modify anything you break the CRC check and the system will no longer load. MODs are one thing but I too am very concerned about all this "security" in a pinball game.. especially given that these machines are known to be around 50+ years and one day that USB dongle will be like horse and buggy and nobody will even remember how any of it works. IF JJP ever goes out of business, who actually thinks they are going to spend money to pay someone to remove all this security for all released games when they are packing their bags and saying goodbye.. it is not happening.
Curious.. where is the case from Stern, Bally, Williams, Data East, etc. that justified all this security in the first place? Aren't the other platforms open? This isn't an ATM or a Voting machine (lol), it is a pinball game... AFAIK JJP has no liability to what someone in the privacy of their own home does to add callouts or music.. and nobody would bother modifying a game on route.. Solution to a problem that never existed? Makes no sense really IMO but perhaps there is another reason I am not aware of.
Agreed - only a matter of time. And even if JJP is still around will they support these machines and the USB dongles?
Quoted from Laithan:From reading this thread, this seems to be one of the issues. If you modify anything you break the CRC check and the system will no longer load. MODs are one thing but I too am very concerned about all this "security" in a pinball game.. especially given that these machines are known to be around 50+ years and one day that USB dongle will be like horse and buggy and nobody will even remember how any of it works. IF JJP ever goes out of business, who actually thinks they are going to spend money to pay someone to remove all this security for all released games when they are packing their bags and saying goodbye.. it is not happening.
Curious.. where is the case from Stern, Bally, Williams, Data East, etc. that justified all this security in the first place? Aren't the other platforms open? This isn't an ATM or a Voting machine (lol), it is a pinball game... AFAIK JJP has no liability to what someone in the privacy of their own home does to add callouts or music.. and nobody would bother modifying a game on route.. Solution to a problem that never existed? Makes no sense really IMO but perhaps there is another reason I am not aware of.
I think what will ultimately happen when all support for these games ends, is someone will develop a virtualized solution where the machine can run under a hypervisor and can be reconfigured with different hardware. Intel x86/i386, which is the architecture these machines rely on, may be on its way out over the next decade. When it's impossible to get the hardware, we would just have another Pinball 2000 situation unless someone develops an open source solution similar to Nucore.
The encryption honestly is probably not difficult to crack, considering we have a pretty large set of machines we have physical access to for frequency analysis attacks. We just need someone willing to put a few days of infosec research into it. I've already seen evidence of a 128-bit key size. Statistically that's impossible to brute force over a period of thousands of years, but software and hardware vulnerabilities are much more practical and more often used to develop real world exploits. Obviously, with full game SSD images and delta update ZIP files they are all going to use the same key or set of keys. Since those asset files are all common across every machine that has the same version of the software installed. All it takes is for the encryption to be cracked and the binaries to be reverse engineered so open source boot loaders can be developed and implemented.
I agree - I’m in IT but I’m architecting/PMing these days. This can certainly be done by the right person - who’s going to step up. I wish I knew someone up for the challenge who loves pinball.
Quoted from Crash:I think what will ultimately happen when all support for these games ends, is someone will develop a virtualized solution where the machine can run under a hypervisor and can be reconfigured with different hardware. Intel x86/i386, which is the architecture these machines rely on, may be on its way out over the next decade. When it's impossible to get the hardware, we would just have another Pinball 2000 situation unless someone develops an open source solution similar to Nucore.
The encryption honestly is probably not difficult to crack, considering we have a pretty large set of machines we have physical access to for frequency analysis attacks. We just need someone willing to put a few days of infosec research into it. I've already seen evidence of a 128-bit key size. Statistically that's impossible to brute force over a period of thousands of years, but software and hardware vulnerabilities are much more practical and more often used to develop real world exploits. Obviously, with full game SSD images and delta update ZIP files they are all going to use the same key or set of keys. Since those asset files are all common across every machine that has the same version of the software installed. All it takes is for the encryption to be cracked and the binaries to be reverse engineered so open source boot loaders can be developed and implemented.
Quoted from djsolzs:I wish I knew someone up for the challenge who loves pinball.
@benheck?
Did anyone get anywhere with changing audio on JJP having just picked up a wonka being able to add extra music etc would take the game to the next level. Imagine JP2 or Stranger things without the cool stuff those incredibly smart folk did adding all the extra assets.
I've discovered some older and incomplete information regarding modifications to a Hobbit:
http://lachniet.com/hobbit
Tech Hints on how I did it
Unless you already know a whole lot about hardware and Linux, don't try.
Setup: In order to not get in as much trouble I'm not going to give step-by-step instructions but I will give you some hints. Use a hardware write blocker to DD the drive and lay down the image on a same-brand SSD of any size 32gb or bigger. In between consider converting to VMDK and setting up a temporary VM to get into it to enable networking and SSH. Single user boot mode. patchelf --set-rpath $ORIGIN for portable binaries. Re-create Apache directory requirements on boot before starting daemon
Can anyone confirm whether it's still feasible to modify a Hobbit?
Which firmware versions are still compatible with such modifications?
Additionally, when did JJP begin encrypting files with Sentinel License Manager?
Are there alternative methods to modify WOZ/Hobbit using 'old' firmware?
Quoted from drgary:I've discovered some older and incomplete information regarding modifications to a Hobbit:
http://lachniet.com/hobbitTech Hints on how I did it
Unless you already know a whole lot about hardware and Linux, don't try.
Setup: In order to not get in as much trouble I'm not going to give step-by-step instructions but I will give you some hints. Use a hardware write blocker to DD the drive and lay down the image on a same-brand SSD of any size 32gb or bigger. In between consider converting to VMDK and setting up a temporary VM to get into it to enable networking and SSH. Single user boot mode. patchelf --set-rpath $ORIGIN for portable binaries. Re-create Apache directory requirements on boot before starting daemonCan anyone confirm whether it's still feasible to modify a Hobbit?
Which firmware versions are still compatible with such modifications?
Additionally, when did JJP begin encrypting files with Sentinel License Manager?
Are there alternative methods to modify WOZ/Hobbit using 'old' firmware?
Sentinel has been there from the beginning, I believe. Not sure on early early versions of WoZ, but subsequent games, yes. POTC definitely has it. Those stupid dongles have been cracked though, but not easy to implement. That arrangement is what made me finally swear off JJP games. I got nervous when the company changed hands and the new CEO seemed like a delusional trust fund kid on that podcast they did like 2 episodes of.
Er, anyway... I'm still not sure how these instructions help get around the hash check which is implemented in the game. If that check occurs on boot, and not just on upgrades, this is not going to work.
Quoted from Laithan:JJP even password protects the BIOS now.. Why?!?! Serves no purpose.. qmodem
I would guess that's more of a maintenance thing, to keep people from accidentally rendering their game inoperable. The pw has been leaked
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I would guess that's more of a maintenance thing, to keep people from accidentally rendering their game inoperable. The pw has been leaked
Yup, seen it around here somewhere recently .
A BIOS password can almost only be bad for owners since nobody is going in there unless they need to. In the event that the motherboard CR2032 battery dies/removed while the game is off, then it is likely that the default BIOS settings would produce a keyboard not detected error and the game would not boot unless there is literally a custom BIOS. You also need to get into the BIOS to set the time/date and boot order. You can easily hook up a keyboard and go into the bios and set it to ignore errors etc IF you know the password that is otherwise you are filling the swear jar.
In my GF, the in-game options allow me to change and save the time/date but it never takes effect. The only way I can change my time and date is to go into the motherboard's BIOS and set it there (not connected to wifi). This is why it perplexes me why there is the need for all of this "security" when these are basic things an owner may need to do one day.
Quoted from Laithan:This is why it perplexes me why there is the need for all of this "security" when these are basic things an owner may need to do one day
Seems like they don't want you to actually own it.
Quoted from Laithan:JJP even password protects the BIOS now
Not recent. They've always done it.
LTG : )
Is there a reason (other than it could be bad) not so shared the user and pass here? Seems like it would be helpful in the scenerio you describe. Why the secrecy here?
Quoted from Laithan:Yup, seen it around here somewhere recently .
A BIOS password can almost only be bad for owners since nobody is going in there unless they need to. In the event that the motherboard CR2032 battery dies/removed while the game is off, then it is likely that the default BIOS settings would produce a keyboard not detected error and the game would not boot unless there is literally a custom BIOS. You also need to get into the BIOS to set the time/date and boot order. You can easily hook up a keyboard and go into the bios and set it to ignore errors etc IF you know the password that is otherwise you are filling the swear jar.
In my GF, the in-game options allow me to change and save the time/date but it never takes effect. The only way I can change my time and date is to go into the motherboard's BIOS and set it there (not connected to wifi). This is why it perplexes me why there is the need for all of this "security" when these are basic things an owner may need to do one day.
Quoted from djsolzs:Is there a reason (other than it could be bad) not so shared the user and pass here? Seems like it would be helpful in the scenerio you describe. Why the secrecy here?
Post #120, last word
Quoted from Laithan:JJP even password protects the BIOS now.. Why?!?! Serves no purpose.. qmodem
What even is a qmodem? Lol
Quoted from Crash:What even is a qmodem? Lol
It is a terminal (mostly used for dial-up) application that was compatible with a BBS (Bulletin Board Systems) back in the pre-internet days. It could display ASCII and ANSI graphics
Wow this brings me back...
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Quoted from pinball_keefer:I don't think anyone will have any trouble "porting" our software to a later Ubuntu except for annoying things that happen later on like switching to systemd and pulse (or now away from pulse). We do the work right now, someone else will be able to do it in the future if the need arises. I guarantee you we are not Linux experts*; it's a means to an end.
There's nothing "locked down" on the OS. No special FS or encryption** or anything like that. People have obviously "broken into" the drive because we haven't done anything special to prevent it (and believe me, we could).
Nucore is a little bit different of a case because they were doing other fun stuff like breaking GPL licenses. We have remained painstakingly compliant.
* Admittedly better than most though. We're past the first hate part and the love part, now in the eternal hate part.
** Game data notwithstanding, but the game can read it no matter what so it doesn't really matter that that's encrypted. It's not tied to the OS is my point.
So anybody take a stab at this?
Played some more EJ recently, really enjoying the game, maybe Steve Ritchie's best shooting layout ever. Anyway, don't think I could stand the music long term. Crocodile Rock is still stuck in my head 24 hours later. Would love for this to be as easy as Pinball Browser, looks like it's never gonna happen.
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