LCDs and alphanumeric displays aren’t going to make a huge BOM difference. The difference is in generating assets for the display and making it look halfway decent. That needs to be spread out over a large run.

Focus on gameplay. Use a basic display

I could have sworn the framing was that the machine would be of quality comparable to a Stern Pro.

What constitutes a "pro style game?" I'm not familiar with this term/concept.

Oh, it definitely makes sense. It's just not what was pitched for 50 pages. And a good part of my incredulity during those 50 pages was the nigh impossibility of him pulling off what he pitched.

If John instead had said he was going to theme an existing street level Jon Norris design that uses all standard parts with an alphanumeric display then I wouldn't have regarded the proposition as totally batshit.

I believe I said a pro style pinball machine from the start. To me that is a coin operated commercial style pinball machine. Has a coin door & mechs to be operated. Street level style pinball machine is a good start for the price limit that has to be maintained.

If I had the Big Whale at $100k US, you would of likely seen some real shit. Would of had a display & a boat load of stuff for 1 of 1 pin.

All positive developments ! If Jon can keep John focused and on track they might have half a chance. Seems coherent design decisions are being made:

1) existing whitewood
2) street level
3) alphanumeric not lcd display so no assets needed
4) no custom parts.

I mean it’s not gonna be stern pro level, but it was never gonna be stern pro level for $10K.

Still don’t like the theme, and it would never make it in my arcade, but oh well, it’s not being designed for me.

John your first post back was fantastic. Keep it at and limit it to that. Resist the urge to respond to each and every question asked including this post. Quit talking about whales. Just buckle down and get it done

An alphanumeric display can be upgraded to a LCD experience later

People love classic single level layouts. John has made playfields proving that demand.

I look forward to seeing Jon’s ideas

The rules, lights, and audio all need a lot of attention. That’s what separates a TNA from The Mafia

To be precise...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/100k-whale-investor-for-licensed-game/page/10#post-7010202

LET THE FUDGING BEGIN !!!

Birthday candles will be replacing the GI to stay within BOM limits.

Wait until he clarifies that "Art" means "painted a soild color".

It would be interesting to see the actual breakdown here. I’m guessing one is below $4K for all parts, but maybe not. So that leaves $6K to pay for labor. John takes $0, Jon takes what ? $4K for all his time which has to be massively undervaluing it for a 6 month development process. That leaves it $2K for the art person.

Yeesh this is gonna be tight. They really need 10 orders of this for it to begin to make sense and give some breathing room.

The next problem is it’s not really a commercial release. I can’t see any mainline or even boutique wanting to take this on for wider release just given theme. It’s not a reputation earner.

I’m not saying this to throw cold water. I mean if someone handed you a dollar and you are interested then go for it. But it really can only be a temporary bridge to something else for this to be worth time and effort.

Jon is busy with another project this week. I am happy with what has been shown to me with the change of a 7 target bank to a 5 drop target bank with 4 fixed targets behind. 3 flipper game, 3 spinners, bash toy, newton ball, & other stuff. If he is up for the basic design to be shown next week it will be done.

Until that time not really more to say.

That’s what I have been thinking. No meat is left on the bone with just a machine or two. It would be in everyone’s best interest to build 10 or 20. Bring the costs down and money is left for everyone to get paid.

If the public gets to see the layout and progress there is a real possibility just that could happen. This pre buy or high and dry marketing scheme really doesn’t match the product being pushed.

But maybe that is the unspoken plan. Build one, two, or even a few and then let the buzz sell itself.

John your doing really awesome getting a pro dev on board. Just like you said you would. And you have all your contractors lined up. Just don’t sell yourself or anyone else short…

So no art, sound, mechs or rules.

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The mechs are all standard stuff available. There is a lot of work to be done. Lots of ideas to be thrown around this month.

By “mech”, I mean a custom engineered mechanical feature, not something off the shelf.

Have we forgotten that Jpop's original plan was to make 1 Magic Girl, before realizing that doing so was economically impractical? That's when the number of Magic Girls increased to 10, then 13 and later to 20 or thereabouts.

Then came BHZA, 99 of them, plus 25 Cointaker editions, as I recall.

Solicitations to plunk down a deposit on Alice In Wonderland soon followed.

Granted, the Jpop/Zidware debacle was a hornet's nest of mismanagement and noodling. Arguably, Greatwich has the ability to avoid some of the Zidware pitfalls and I hope that he finds a path to success.

Nevertheless, I don't see how Greatwich earns any money for his considerable effort, absent a major stage 2 where his game launches a build numbering in the hundreds. Scale is an insurmountable factor to profit, in my view. If he finds a way to make a profit, he will have discovered the secret sauce that the boutique market hasn't yet tasted.

He has already communicated that he does not expect nor plan to make a single dollar on this endeavor.

It's good to have a plan. My interpretation is that he plans to make 1 - 10 games to launch into some sort of stage two endeavor, which is designed to earn him a profit.

Best of luck to you, John.

I'd be getting your rules down now. By that, I mean today. You can start coding the basics with only a design. The coding is what I see as your biggest challenge, given your schedule. It's not easy, and if your coder isn't experienced, bug chasing can eat up time fast.

As others have said, stay away from a graphic display.

Do you have someone experienced in sound engineering? Even something as simple as normalization, balance and ducking can be a time-suck for a novice.

Personally, I think your theme is a very poor choice. Listen to you potential customers. What do they want?

I'm rooting for you, but I see some huge black holes in your plan.

How far along does the code need to be by the deadline for the project to be considered a success?

What’s ‘street level’ mean? People seem to know it… I’m not familiar- does that mean no Ramps??

I think the theme is ok, but the title is cringey for something to bring to a show. I get it’s a one .. or two or ten-off, but still.

Given the basically finished design, and if you go alpha numeric .. timelines are still scrunched but looking better at least. Arts gonna take a while, and coding quite a while if it includes writing and incorporating light shows, and all the sound / callout recording, editing, and choreography. IF a dmd is chosen, that’s a ton more work.. for something comparable to a stern game. With a full rule set, I see that taking the full 6 months.. and def leaves that above question — how ‘done’ does it have to be to be considered complete? 100% coded with all assets? And are we talking 50-100 callouts with no variation or more randomization? A bunch of modes or more simplified play? There’s a lot of ways to skimp when time and money are on the line ..

Street level games were an experiment by Gottlieb towards designing a simpler, single level (no ramps), slightly smaller and cheaper game for operators who thought pinball machines were too expensive. They did not sell very well, only six models were made in 1990-1991.
Silver Slugger
Vegas
Deadly Weapon
Title Fight
Car Hop
Hoops

I like how the game has gone from being a Stern Pro level machine to basically a 70s Bally SS. Things not exactly working out as planned - because there was never a plan.

At this point the theme doesn’t even matter. How “adult” can it be with no screen? It’s basically Whoa Nellie and we all know what a sales monster that was.

Pretty soon it will be flipperless.

Solid state flippers (without mechs). You just nudge the ball around. That's a Pro level game.

And here I wanted to see a fully custom, 100% blinged out pinball machine that was going to reuse non-custom ramps.

Now this? Bummer.

John didnt find whales, he found him some Bristle Nose Pleco's!!

Bristle-Nose-Pleco (resized).png

And you can have it for the LOW, LOW price of $100,000 US!

Apparently for $10k you get a rethemed stock white wood that’s been sitting in the corner for a while. Curious to see how it turns out.

The mere fact that not one of those rings a bell speaks for itself…

Yes and no. Personal insults and tearing John down for sport is out of line but I appreciate the knowledgeable people keeping it real here. The last page or so of comments from respectable people has been an eye opener for me.

John has given birth to this project on Pinside. It lives and breaths here as he is still trying to attract another 9 mini whales or whatever. For transparency and accountability to any additional investors he's going for, he's going to need to wear his big boy pants and be forthcoming.
And this is especially true for any future plans that John has after this run.

I want John and this project to succeed.

Two bits of advice I will give to John. Be honest throughout and ask for help when you need it. Not asking for help if things get desperate is probably the biggest mistake I've witness in attempts like this.

Asked Jon Norris if he would like to put up the basic playfield layout, or have me do it. Please remember he is working & it might be days before it goes up. Customer #1, & myself are happy with the design. Looks like a lot can be done for shots, & basic rules. This pinball machine is more old school, & will not be a rules deep type of game. There is more in play for this type of game, but that is up to Jon Norris to explain or not.

Another local expert is in the communication cable field, & the other retired expert worked for Bell & Cable provider. More info to follow when the playfield design is revealed. That is when I figure out the lenses, & what I need.

If this were his dream he'd been working on it for years or when he concocted this plan he would have been started working on whatever he could work on during that time period. IMO.

Iceman is getting a helluva deal. Nobody else would make a custom one-off game for $10k.

A mech is a mech. Sounds like you're referring to a Toy not just a meck. I don't recall anyone saying anything about any Toys...

But you keep finding things to criticize and be negative about. It seems to be amusing you!

Quite honestly, this needs to be a DMD/LED display at minimum to qualify as a pro level game. Just an opinion, not a knock.

Gottlieb street levels are far from a modern pro level game.

While considering lenses, have you considered which, if any, lights will be RGB? I think RGB lightning provides a lot of bang for the buck and making a game feel more loaded than it is. Again, look at games like The Mafia and Whoa Nellie vs TNA.

Here's an old layout, with some upgrades, and a quick intense light show I wrote for funsies (mushrooms were involved)

ezgif-5-9193c11d20.gif

I don't know what sort of rules or modes have been discussed. But maybe the trailer park floods and the lights slowly turn blue as it creeps towards the flippers, or there is a meth lab fire and they're all yellow and orange lights spreading across the playfield, or alternating red and blue light general illumination for a police raid, etc...

There are so many ways to integrate a theme beyond a LCD screen.

Ok a boutique pinball, do you plan on changing the offensive title if you ever decide to mass produce?

If trailer parks are the theme that gets John excited enough to get to work, then it's a good enough theme.

They can slap a new theme on it later if he does somehow turn out a great shooting pin.

Best of luck with this new project. I hope you succeed, and the odds that you will have increased significantly.

To keep our narratives straight, the goalposts have been relocated from the end zone to the 20 and now the 40 yard line. What you've described the past couple pages is not a Stern Home Pin, let alone a Stern Pro.

Trailer parks are fine Just the Word Trash in particular ..Trailer Park Paradise or Trailer Park Riviera .. fits better

Ben Heck's Intoxicated Trailer Park Escapades sounds like a winner to me

Trailer park escapades is a good name as well..
The word trash should appear nowhere on the game, again I have friends in trailer parks one of them sold me a pinball machine as well.

I was hoping for maybe one toy, perhaps a dumpster that if you hit it enough starts dumpster fire multiball!
Then if you get the jackpot the dumpster fire sets off exploding meth lab multiball!
Perhaps a brush your tooth mode could work also... Ok I'm bored at work never mind!

Yeah I have things I could be drawing in CAD, or I can suggest dumb ideas like decorating the pops to look like old tractor tires and oil barrels. I do think the game needs a junky car as a bash toy to beat on. Some cheap metal car toy with an an opto in front of it. Maybe an old broken satellite dish in the corner as decoration (if ambitious, copy the Goldeneye satellite dish mech)

Broken satellite in the corner as a decoration! LOL

Camaro on blocks

"I'm gonna fix er one day!"

If it is now a bare bones 80s solid state that is shallow as hell, this can be achieved in six months. I feel like the goal post was nudged a tiny bit though.

I think we have a different definition of “Pro” than GWJ. He meant a “coin-operated” pin, not a “home” or “Zizzle” type game. He never meant “Stern Pro”, even though we all made it clear that’s what we thought he meant. He kept doubling down on “Pro” instead of clarifying what he meant.

Trailer Trash pinball is now Scoregasm from Pinball Life.