At least for me you were right about that part. I had no desire to collectively purchase 1 pin. I had a desire to help out someone who at that time seemingly had no options, and see if he could make it work. Apparently you believe you have options beyond charity. That’s fine, but those non charity options have significant financial obligations to the investors that I really hope you are aware of. I fear you really have only looked at the reward and completely minimize the risk here.

Seems retirement was a bad idea.

Nope, wasn't me.

Fraud only if:

1. Takes money from his investors.
2. Promises investors he can deliver a Stern Pro level pin.
3. Investors are investing because they believe they will get a Stern Pro pin.
4. John does not deliver a Stern Pro pin.

In John’s case it would likely be ignorant fraud versus planned fraud. Ignorant fraud in that he truly believes he can deliver something he actually cannot. Unfortunately that is what we have been mostly dealing with here in the Boutique. Nobody making these pins planned to rip off anyone. They just did because of ignorant fraud. Ignorant fraud also has a bad tendency to dig the hole deeper when it realizes it is over its head in a plan gone off the rails …. see JPOP and Deeproot for examples

Yes just like others saying 100 or 300 games. 1 or up to 10 pinball machines in 6 months is more realistic. Even years ago I stated in the Deeproot Pinball thread they should just contract out Jpop games & be done with it.

The Oxford dictionary did not give different definitions of fraud versus ignorant or non ignorant fraud.

I could care less where it comes from. Like I said if the money is there it goes public. So if the Go Fund Me reaches the goal of $11k US which should be around $10k US like the other whales in the pod it goes public for the build info. It will be money on demand stages of production just like anyone else involved.

.

Just pull together the $10k and save the extra $1k.

Should be able to do it with a small group. The build journey should be worth the price of admission.

Plus we get to publicly see Rare and Benny’s heads twist off in the process. And that is priceless!

Yes. I'd chip in $25 for the build journey.

I think he posted in the Stargazer/Seawitch playfield thread that his health wouldn't allow him to continue his pool water testing job, so he got a transfer to another department..... STREET REPAIR! (or something equally insane hard labor) Not sure he made it one day on that before wisely retiring.

I'm tellin'ya, it's PMS, Pinball Munchausen Syndrome.

Yeah, no, not for me. I'll sit this one out.
Good luck to all.

Well they all place in jail anyway so it’s really only semantics at the end

Well they all place in jail anyway so it’s really only semantics at the end

I feel at this point we're all poking sticks at a confused old man, and watching him spin around and babble for our amusement.

…0

LOL

it opens up the #10 build slot for some lucky mini-whale tho!
unless John continues to keep that slot reserved, because that is the plan

I never recall it being presented this way or how a close reading of what was presented would result in this misinterpretation (though I'm not going to re-read dozens of pages to confirm that it was not).

Link?

Here's the Pinside link. I assume you'll find the KLOV link in there.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/klov-community-scam

Same here. My offers are no longer in play. If someone has to be force fed the obvious, I ain't playing.

I think this is the part of the plan where IT DIES.

You simply can't help someone who doesn't want help, and if you think for a moment that donating to a dream idea here is a good idea, remember that your advice and offers for help will continue to be ignored, despite the fact that you have invested any amount of good will.

Ben is right. This is a side-show thread and we need to let it rest.

undoubtedly, there are more worthy projects out there. the one that came to my mind was the team in california who were interrupted midstream while building THE LAST STARFIGHTER.

YES!

Like I said last time, with due respect I am not asking you. I am looking for independent verification that Jon Norris has confirmed he is the game designer of your project. “Independent verification” = not you.

I mentioned Tour de France because Jon has recently announced that is his current project. Game designers tend to work on one project at a time. Thus he wouldn’t have time to work on your project.

Agreed - that was a cool build and came together for the initial part insanely fast before it died. Dunno if $ could resurrect it though. Love to see mad max finished as well.. think it’s just a matter of time but if money would help Id donate.

Jon is active on pinside and FB. You can private message him or tag him in a post.

Seems like a he's endured a bunch of verbal abuse

Some of Rare’s greatest hits here. One example. That’s just who he is. John is a really nice guy, not “delusional”, spoken to him for a good while.

It’s indicative of this thread and how John has been treated personally. Not by everybody and some would truly like to help and are genuine about it.

Most are just full of shit and love the drama. It’s just who they are

You guys do what you want, but I was only willing to put in a few bucks after Vdojaq's inspiring story. After how that very generous offer to help was turned down, I am OUT. If you guys wanna toss some bucks into a pot somewhere though, be my guest

Was a great project, that came to a screeching halt right after they said “we are done with the hard part”, when they said that, I posted something like “not so sure about that”, it takes a lot more than a playfield to have a complete game.

Wonder if Jon Norris is also doing rules, programming, etc. would be an awful lot for one guy in six months.

That's why I think Jon has something generic already in the can that could be customized to the Trailer Park theme.

If this is a scratch design and programming, not a chance in hell.

I really believe John is very genuine. However, his past pinball business was quite the chaos. It wasn't the product, it was John's lack of business etiquette, mismanagement, constant delays and people left out in the cold. This is where much of his naysayers come from and badger him with. John is is walking into this with his eye wide shut.

Opposite man, I drink then get the shits!

GWJ can do that part. No sense paying a qualified programmer $100k, when he can read - Building an A-level Stern Pro Pinball Machine for Dummies. See he has already saved money and managed his $11k budget wisely. He has to have enough to pay Jon Norris for design. Guess GWJ will need to handle electrical also so he could have his game UL certified. I’m pretty sure it is illegal to make and sell an electronic device in public without it and some big legal disclaimers.

When the house burns down from having the device turned on, they have to call the fire dept. That might not concern Jon Norris though, as the deeproot game once burst into fire and had to be contained. Fortunately for public safety the game with known electrical problems was never put into production.

Programing can mean a lot of things. You can program a basic early SS-like game within a month thanks to MPF. It's just few would want a game so basic these days...

I kinda wonder if Jon Norris would be better off showing more of his work as a homebrewer and taking examples to shows. Maybe he can get people into one of his designs that way, sorta like TNA was willed into production from positive show reception.

Pinsiders have endured a bunch of financial abuse from people who’ve done this same thing over and over and over. The Jpop scam started a decade ago!!! We’ve all witnessed Zidware, Skit-B, Heighway, Deep Root, etc. all fail with far more talent and resources. Since mods haven’t banned John for his attempt to be the worst version of this boutique scam, calling out this insanity for what it is isn’t abuse. It’s the responsible thing to do. I was right about the other failures and their false promises, and I’ll be right about this. If this makes me an abuser in your eyes, you lack perspective…shame on you. Tell me - why have you attached yourself to the clown car? Why are you encouraging this madness?

1) he didn't understand it, because boomer

2) he's greedy because he's so broke. 2 whales in the bush > one in the hand.

3) he didn't understand that HE was the charity

But you know what? Screw it. Let him get in debt to a lawyer. Baller move that. No wonder he's bankrupt.

Yes I agree, it should be the least bit interesting...

Being skeptical and pointing out his past, he does it himself, arrogance is not one his traits, is what you do when evaluating any business deal. I do it all day every day for myself and my clients.

Would i have any clients "invest" in anything Reg D like Deeproot or some side pinball project. Hell no! It's just a HOBBY. We do this shit for fun, at least i do!!!

Now, when others think its OK to bully John or anybody else then that is F ed up. He has handled himself quite well. Being critical is one thing, being a total jackass is another, and it's well documented here. Not you Kojak

It's time for John to go silent, everybody can have their opinions on how ridiculous the project is, but we will all see at the end of the day.

Either way, at TPF, we will be tipping some drinks together.

I applaud your good intentioned noble effort to help John Kojak. But there was ZERO chance that these cheap bastards here would ever pony up for $11k and this "CHARITY PROJECT".

No F ing way! LOL

You can call it out and refute his ideas without the vitriol - you can get your point across and still be polite

In other words - Don't be an ass

You are correct...but not because I am cheap...I just don't feel like rewarding someone that has put little to no effort or thought into the project. I think the GoFundMe is a terrible idea.

You are entitled to your opinion. There is a lot more than you think that has gone into it.

A phone conversation is much different than you get here.

Doesn’t mean it’s not a total long shot.

Why is Jon Norris helping him. And others?

There is no reality to this plan. it is a certainty that John will lose money from this venture as he unfortunately has on every one to date. It am pretty sure that by the end, he will have a hostile relationship with everybody who comes on board. Once was willing to throw in $300 but I am out for good. Final thought is John should pull the plug and go dark and just drink beer and build his home-brew. Stay away from Pinside and all other media. Do whatever you you want just don’t go spilling your brains on a public forum.