(Topic ID: 153265)

MMr White inserts unreadable


By jrawlinson_2000

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 126 posts
  • 51 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by fosaisu
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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There are 126 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
14
#1 3 years ago

I hate to air 'dirty laundry' in public, but seeing as Chicago Gaming have not bothered to reply to a ticket I have raised since 12th Feb that is exactly what I am going to do.

Having waited 2+ years for this bloody game it arrives with inserts that you can not read (yes I'm raising that again).

There is no point going back to my UK supplier as there is nothing they can do about it, I did email Rick and he came back straight away and was helpful suggesting I raise a ticket with Chicago Gaming, which I did.

I've now followed this up twice on their ticketing system still with no reply, it's assigned to a Doug Skor.

2+ years wait, $8k and now this, what a muppet I should have purchased an original....

Chicago Gaming / Doug Skor reply to my ticket....

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#2 3 years ago

Demand a new pf!

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

Demand a new pf!

Yea, sure... just like the tomahawk sling issue. This definitely sucks. Issue after issue but will people learn from all this?

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

I hate to air 'dirty laundry' in public,

Lame!

Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

but seeing as Chicago Gaming have not bothered to reply to a ticket I have raised since 12th Feb that is exactly what I am going to do.

Sweet! Go on....

Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

Having waited 2+ years for this bloody game it arrives with inserts that you can not read (yes I'm raising that again).
There is no point going back to my UK supplier as there is nothing they can do about it, I did email Rick and he came back straight away and was helpful suggesting I raise a ticket with Chicago Gaming, which I did.
I've now followed this up twice on their ticketing system still with no reply, it's assigned to a Doug Skor.
2+ years wait, $8k and now this, what a muppet I should have purchased an original....
Chicago Gaming / Doug Skor reply to my ticket....

IMG_20160131_090646_(resized).jpg

Wow that's pretty fd up. Now, I'm sure there's a 20 page thread on this somewhere, but are they all like this? Or just a bunch of 'em? I think I remember tons of folks countering the old "I'll take brand new over 20 years old any day!" with "who knows what kinds of issues will crop up?" Maybe something to that.

#6 3 years ago

I read that thread but was wondering if there was more.

It's kind of weird, like picking up a TV show in the middle of the series.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

Demand a new pf!

And what should he do if they sent him a new playfield?

23
#8 3 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

And what should he do if they sent him a new playfield?

faint...

#9 3 years ago

511 here in black,same issue. Now,before you get all fired up look at the problem real good and compare to original. I believe you will find that the led bulbs are very bright and is causing this issue. It has been said that they are indeed working on a update to control the brightness to be more like original.
Give them a chance to fix the issue for everyone involved.
Mike

#10 3 years ago

^Keep believing that. If that were the case, EVERY mmr playfield would have this issue. Unbelievable.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

511 here in black,same issue. Now,before you get all fired up look at the problem real good and compare to original. I believe you will find that the led bulbs are very bright and is causing this issue. It has been said that they are indeed working on a update to control the brightness to be more like original.
Give them a chance to fix the issue for everyone involved.
Mike

Can you just stick 47s in there, or is there some kind of limitation on this exciting new technology that prevents the use of old school light bulbs?

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Give them a chance to fix the issue for everyone involved.
Mike

Fair enough but ignoring his requests for help for weeks on end the inexcusable. CGC is not handling this particular issue well at all.

#13 3 years ago

I have looked at four mmr in person and they look identical to each other.
Mike

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Can you just stick 47s in there, or is there some kind of limitation on this exciting new technology that prevents the use of old school light bulbs?

I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but I'll bite. There is no way to use incandescents. All of the inserts are illuminated by boards with surface mount LEDs.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Can you just stick 47s in there, or is there some kind of limitation on this exciting new technology that prevents the use of old school light bulbs?

IIRC the game says specifically to not put incandescents in the game(even if there were sockets for the inserts)

#16 3 years ago

Amazing!

I make another update to the ticket and post here and within 48 minutes finally get an update from Doug...

Well at least I have an open line of communication...

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

511 here in black,same issue. Now,before you get all fired up look at the problem real good and compare to original. I believe you will find that the led bulbs are very bright and is causing this issue. It has been said that they are indeed working on a update to control the brightness to be more like original.
Give them a chance to fix the issue for everyone involved.
Mike

This is why LEDS suck.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:Can you just stick 47s in there, or is there some kind of limitation on this exciting new technology that prevents the use of old school light bulbs?

Of course not.Suface mount nastiness.The good news is someday LEDs will be able to do what incandescents have been doing forever

23
#18 3 years ago
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

And what should he do if they sent him a new playfield?

Hang it on the wall by the side of the machine so he can use it as a guide to see what the inserts should say.

#19 3 years ago

Didn't Stern send new AC/DC pf's to those people with cloudy windows? Or did they have a different resolution?

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

Didn't Stern send new AC/DC pf's to those people with cloudy windows? Or did they have a different resolution?

There were a few guys that I know of that actually received fully populated drop in playfields...

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but I'll bite. There is no way to use incandescents. All of the inserts are illuminated by boards with surface mount LEDs.

Not being sarcastic. Never looked under the hood.

Too bad really. Seems strange you don't have an option to use the light bulbs the game shipped with back in the day for a game touted as a remake. Not everybody likes LEDs.

16
#22 3 years ago

The fix is on it's way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Medieval_Madness_Insert_Decals_(resized).jpg

10 minutes and you are back in the game.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The fix is on it's way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the fix was in when people sent their money years ago...

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

This is why LEDS suck.

Of course not.Suface mount nastiness.The good news is someday LEDs will be able to do what incandescents have been doing forever

Seriously, lose the prejudice and open your eyes to technology. LED's can fade just fine. If you don't believe me come play my METLE and play fade to black. Also, my LED OCD on my IM works just great. I can make the brightness what ever I want and fade it at the speed I want. It's just coding to reduce the brightness of the inserts on this game.

Now tell me again what can't be done?

-3
#25 3 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

I think the fix was in when people sent their money years ago...

Idiot

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

There were a few guys that I know of that actually received fully populated drop in playfields...

No direct experience but I recall reading that Stern was quite resistant to sending out new playfields in that case, so only the most persistent customers got that resolution. That said, I doubt Stern just ignored requests for help (unless and until the customer posted to complain on Pinside).

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

No direct experience but I recall reading that Stern was quite resistant to sending out new playfields in that case, so only the most persistent customers got that resolution.

Yes, some got new playfields and the very few populated ones that were sent out were to take care of windows that had almost like a cracking defect. But overall the whole cloudy window thing was a little overblown. Many of the windows actually cleaned up nicely from the inside under playfield and many others were just a little hazy but not that bad. Some were definitely ugly though...

#29 3 years ago

Well if you don't want it, I'm sure somebody will take it off your hands. After all there is a waiting list for this game.

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but I'll bite. There is no way to use incandescents. All of the inserts are illuminated by boards with surface mount LEDs.

Couldn't you rig something up as a test? I mean, get a 6V power supply and wire up a few 555 or 44 lamps and hold them under the inserts. At lest this will let you know if that lamp source looks better than the search light LEDs in there. It would be a more comparative test to the original screening if they're lit the same.

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

I make another update to the ticket and post here and within 48 minutes finally get an update from Doug...

Be very careful. The last guy in your position came back from that meeting a very different person...

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#32 3 years ago

Try cutting up a plastic milk jug and see if it defuses the light enough to make a difference.

Try stacking 2 slices also.

#33 3 years ago

^ not a bad idea
Mike

#34 3 years ago

just cover the led with a slice of milk jug, you know, a high-tech solution.

-c

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Couldn't you rig something up as a test? I mean, get a 6V power supply and wire up a few 555 or 44 lamps and hold them under the inserts.

Yes, an easy test with an old phone charger wall wart and a #44 bulb and socket.

Same way I test LEDs before I install them in to hard to reach locations, lol

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from CraigC:

just cover the led with a slice of milk jug, you know, a high-tech solution.
-c

^ Not a bad idea.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

^ Not a bad idea.

srry, took me a few seconds to type that up I did this for the speaker panel mod CFTBL moon and starlight sign and it worked well.

-c

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from CraigC:

srry, took me a few seconds to type that up I did this for the speaker panel mod CFTBL moon and starlight sign and it worked well.
-c

Great minds think alike.

I've done it on older Williams SS games where the inserts have no jeweling and you just have the LED blasting into your face.

#39 3 years ago

You had to buy a board to get them to behave they way you want!!!!!!How much for the board and the LEDs?A box of 10 555s cost 3.00.And I don't need a soldering iron to replace something that SHOULD to be simple to do.

Im sorry....... not my brand of scotch

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

You had to buy a board to get them to behave they way you want!

He bought a board to retrofit games that weren't designed for them, but the argument in this case is that LEDs suck. If the game is designed to drive them properly, they can look great. If the game accounts for them, it doesn't really even cost anything more. The driver circuits can be cheaper than incandescent since they don't have to supply as much current.

#41 3 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Yes, some got new playfields and the very few populated ones that were sent out were to take care of windows that had almost like a cracking defect. But overall the whole cloudy window thing was a little overblown. Many of the windows actually cleaned up nicely from the inside under playfield and many others were just a little hazy but not that bad. Some were definitely ugly though...

I feel this is overblown as well. Yes it sucks if you have the light ink and am no way am I condoning this type of quality, but it really doesn't have any effect on the gameplay and the only thing I might effect is resale value if the buyer is very anal. The only way to truly fix it is by supplying fully populated playfields to swap out, however don't see that happening in this case.

I think if they would give those a brand new pf that would suffice, kinda how Stern gave new decals to those who suffered from wrinkled decals on their TF. Decals are a pain to install and I don't think many replaced the ones on their TF, however they at least have them to include in the sale of the machine when the time comes to help offset the loss they might take for the current condition of the machine.

The chipped PF at the slings would have bothered me more since that is physical damage to the playfield. They didn't give replacement PF's to those people so I highly doubt they will do it for those with the light ink issue.

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from herg:

He bought a board to retrofit games that weren't designed for them, but the argument in this case is that LEDs suck. If the game is designed to drive them properly, they can look great. If the game accounts for them, it doesn't really even cost anything more. The driver circuits can be cheaper than incandescent since they don't have to supply as much current.

Thank you. I'm glad someone can comprehend what I was saying. I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about the technology of running an LED and that LED's are perfectly capable of doing what is needed. Just used those items of examples of proof an LED can do what is needed.

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

The chipped PF at the slings would have bothered me more since that is physical damage to the playfield. They didn't give replacement PF's to those people so I highly doubt they will do it for those with the light ink issue.

I'll just leave this here, read Post #148

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/metallica-inserts-lifting/page/3

#44 3 years ago

I read that thread and yes they offered him a populated PF, however many others with damage were not offered one and not even a blank PF like he received. Maybe he was one of the first to complain and they thought it was an isolated issue. I would consider him one of the lucky ones, just as there were a lucky few to get replacement populated PF's from Stern on AC/DC.

In a ideal world those with sling damage or light ink would get replacement populated PF's. I just don't see it happening as unfortunate as it is sounds. I'm very anal and can pick out defects on all my Stern PF's that are much worse then the light ink. However, I never felt the need to complain and ask for anything from them. After reading all these threads maybe I should have since I seem to be in the minority.

#45 3 years ago

Since this is a cosmetic issue and somewhat subjective I think it would be more cost effective for CGC to handle it on a case by case basis and work to satisfy each customer, than it would be to put out a single solution for everyone (even those who don't notice a problem) that still won't satisfy everyone.

I think there will always be variations in production that could effect resale value, depending on how anal the buyer is. The variance in the graining on playfields from many of the manufacturers (not sure about MMr) is a good example. Sometimes the clear looks smooth as glass and sometimes it looks rippled.

Not being able to see exactly what you're getting is one of the major drawbacks to buying NIB.

#46 3 years ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Now,before you get all fired up look at the problem real good and compare to original. I believe you will find that the led bulbs are very bright and is causing this issue.

No. I put a superbright LED behind an original insert and the black is still perfectly opaque. The thin-ink playfields are simply defective.

#47 3 years ago

Regarding the proposed CGC solution of dimming the LED's, i was under the impression LED's could not be dimmed? For example if you switch out incandescents for LED's on Spiderman, you lose the white inserts changing brightness. Or is that just a limitation of using LED's in a system that was designed for incandescents?

#48 3 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Regarding the proposed CGC solution of dimming the LED's, i was under the impression LED's could not be dimmed? For example if you switch out incandescents for LED's on Spiderman, you lose the white inserts changing brightness. Or is that just a limitation of using LED's in a system that was designed for incandescents?

It's more the latter.

LEDs strobe so fast you can't see them with the naked eye. As you increase the voltage the strobing is faster, so the lights appear brighter. Conversely when you decrease the voltage the LED 'blinks' and looks dimmer, because it's not strobing as fast.

Incandescent lights just increase brightness with voltage because the light comes from a burning filament. But the downside is that 98% of the energy put in is output to heat, only 2% of the energy is released in the form of light.

#49 3 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Regarding the proposed CGC solution of dimming the LED's, i was under the impression LED's could not be dimmed? For example if you switch out incandescents for LED's on Spiderman, you lose the white inserts changing brightness. Or is that just a limitation of using LED's in a system that was designed for incandescents?

LED's can dim just fine for a game designed for LED's. For example, try a METLE or Premium. One of the CIU modes is called Fade to Black for which the lights gradually dim over the period of the mode.

If the game was not designed for LED's it would require the use of a product like LED OCD.

13
#50 3 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

I feel this is overblown as well. Yes it sucks if you have the light ink and am no way am I condoning this type of quality, but it really doesn't have any effect on the gameplay and the only thing I might effect is resale value if the buyer is very anal. .

Giant slashes in the side art don't affect gameplay either but I don't think people buying these games would accept that.

It's a huge issue, if only because of the resale issue you bring up. You know how this works, it'll be a huge thing. Who's gonna buy a "defective insert" MMR when there will be plenty that aren't? I don't know what kind of resale hit these games would take but it's not gonna be pretty and nobody who is buying one of these for $8,000 is gonna be happy about it.

It's got nothing to do with "anal" regardless of how fun it is using that word. Anybody with google and about 5 minutes of researching an MMR buy is gonna realize pretty quick that there's a bunch out there with a defect they don't want. I had a total newbie call me about buying an AC/DC - I mean complete newbie. In our second email he said "now, I don't want one of those ones with a cloudy window!"

This was a guy calling flippers "bumpers."

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