(Topic ID: 129175)
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Medieval Madness
Williams, 1997
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Canton, MI
Quoted from o-din:Good to know it won't bother you any if yours comes like that. Or that people won't give you what you want for it if you ever decide to sell it.
That's not what I got from his response at all.
Quoted from o-din:Me neither. But if it turns out I so happen to be looking for a second hand MMr down the road, it won't be one of the ones with shown damage at the slingshots. Those will be avoided like the plague. Unless of course I can get a heck of a deal on it.
Well if the $1500 price differential estimate floating around in this thread holds up, count me in for an HUO MMr with "slingshot ding"!
Sana'a
Quoted from teekee:This is happening RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX with MMR! You can tell the AFM and MM above have tens of thousands of play. If the slings were rebuilt once in a while this would never happen on an original. BIG DIFFERENCE HERE!
Williams used to send us tech bulletins to fix lots of their mistakes, moving the ball guides on Black Knight, the lamps on F-14, the resistors and diodes on system6, the ball traps on MM......
When all those plastic hinges started breaking on Chrysler gas covers, they did not give you $1500, they pop riveted a new hinge on the fender and sent you on your way.
Quoted from 85vett:I also don't see this devaluing peoples games by this so called $1500 value worth.
If anyone thinks that chipped clear near the slings has caused their machines to depreciate by $1500 I have great news for them! I will happily buy them for $7k, reducing your loss by $500!
Quoted from vid1900:Williams used to send us tech bulletins to fix lots of their mistakes, moving the ball guides on Black Knight, the lamps on F-14, the resistors and diodes on system6, the ball traps on MM......
When all those plastic hinges started breaking on Chrysler gas covers, they did not give you $1500, they pop riveted a new hinge on the fender and sent you on your way.
Not sure what any of this has to do with the current situation but hey as long as you guys are fine with it… prices going up, quality going down, HOORAY!
Quoted from o-din:Especially not an $8000 Limited Edition model
The only reason MMR is 8k is because everyone thought they were buying a limited game . Rick said the price was 8K MSRP and everyone paid .
If we would have sat on are hands the price would have fallen sharply ! 8K does not mean you are getting a perfect game! It means you paid the dream price for a business man !
Quoted from McCune:The only reason MMR is 8k is because everyone thought they were buying a limited game .
No, it was $8k cuz an original in equal condition was $20k. $8k was "reasonable" in comparison.
Quoted from 85vett:OK, I'll be the one to say it and get flammed for it.....
This REALLY sucks but I can't believe people are saying it will take a $1500 refund or a complete new PF to make them happy. This is what I don't like about the hobby the most. This is a minor cosmetic issue for most of the pics that have been posted (most are barely noticeable when zoomed in on a camera) and it almost feels as though people are salivating at the mouth to get a major refund to basically help reduce the cost of what they paid for the pin. I'd just about be willing to bet (if I had the cash to do so) that half the people that got a replacement PF (if that was the solution) wouldn't even install that PF and would just hold on to it and sell it down the road. This is what always seems to happen and is one of the major reason I feel that Stern (and other mfgs) are more stingy on when they will replace an item for someone. Prime example, look at all the people that got free cab decals for TF. How many of those replacement decals were actually installed? Nearly none....
For nearly all of the pics I've seen of this issue you could simply take some hard as nails and smooth that out. Then move your mechs back 1/8th of an inch and be golden. The damage would be pretty much non-existent at that point. PPS could give you $250-$500 for your time and depreciation of the asset and be done.
I also don't see this devaluing peoples games by this so called $1500 value worth. Couple hundred, maybe but even $500 seems to be pushing it. The example of the AC/DC window was used as well. It is no where near the level of the AC/DC cloudy window. The window in AC/DC is huge and is clearly seen. Most of the people that have this damage on their MMr didn't even notice it until someone said to go look for it which tells me it's not clearly seen from a players view. Because of that I wouldn't want to do business with someone that was trashing my game's condition for something that small in the first place.
Again, this really does suck and I hope everyone gets taken care of but I think some are throwing this a bit out of proportion in relation to the compensation they are deserved.
I'm not going to flame you, but I do respectfully disagree, and here's why. MMRLE isn't just a run-of-the-mill game. PPS remade the highest rated pinball machine of all time and charged quite the premium for it. This is a game made for collectors essentially. Not too many people can afford to route 8K games. And as such, perfection is expected and justifiably so, in my opinion. When you pay 8K, shouldn't some of that money be considered a de facto insurance policy that insures against defects? I think so.
Quoted from Rarehero:No, it was $8k cuz an original in equal condition was $20k. $8k was "reasonable" in comparison.
Fair enough but now that real MM are a fraction of what they were worth,WHO MADE WHO ?
Quoted from McCune:Fair enough but now that real MM are a fraction of what they were worth,WHO MADE WHO ?
I followed you right up until your caps lock broke - is this meant to be a riddle or a paradox?!?
I don't mean this as disrespectful to new pin owners and of course you deserve the best machine possible for your dollars. 8K is still 8K last time I checked.
That being said wanting a new populated playfield for this just reeks of new pin-itis. If they send you a new playfield, surely something will be slightly wrong with that one, or it will also get damaged somehow (slightly larger than usual dimpling from an airball, near microscopically mis-aligned playfield printing, slightly non-flush insert etc..).
I hope you get something other than a lesson not to rush out and buy another NIB game sight unseen, but try to be realistic with your expectations. As others have said, remember the coin mech debate.
Quoted from fosaisu:I followed you right up until your caps lock broke
Sorry, just me being a smart ass.. I guess what I meant was, if original MMs are 8K or less,does it really make since to own a Tomahawk MMR @ 8K ?
Plus the thrill of owning a rare game is in the garbage and no one will care, killing the value more and more everyday . Especially since Stern is now making really cool games!!
Quoted from teekee:This is happening RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX with MMR! You can tell the AFM and MM above have tens of thousands of play.
Yea, the inlane drop area is destroyed on that mm. Coil stop and plunger for the sling are probably 1/8" shorter than they were when the game shipped 
I wonder if the cleanest way to deal with this would be to simply try a longer coil stop first. If that does it then no more worries.
Shadow uses longer stops on the phurba ramp diverters so if a pair of these fit then next step would be to use a drop of lacquer or cheap clear on the worn spot.
If you're remotely handy you can reposition the assembly but the real question is what about people that are NOT confident in doing this?
They might be worried about drilling all the way up through the PF,etc...
This is where I see Lloyd putting on a 3K dark suit and going from airport to airport like George Clooney in that downsizing movie. He arrives spotless on the customers doorstep and states... "I'M THE FIXER" 
Quoted from o-din:This again..people should not have to do repairs on playfields damaged due to factory neglect while covered under warranty. However two different solutions would be fair IMO.
1. A populated playfield on an exchange basis only.
or
2. A bare playfield with no exchange necessary.
And believe me, Chicago Gaming will have plenty of both.
Well Stern likes to send out PF's to people that are dissatisfied (as an example) but that REALLY won't do the novice buyer any good.
And somehow I don't see them sending out populated PF's as they would be footing the shipping both ways and that would get expensive quick. It's a good idea though... but the novice would have to hire someone to swap it out. Best idea yet though.
Quoted from usandthem:When you pay 8K, shouldn't some of that money be considered a de facto insurance policy that insures against defects?
I would think at $8,000 it would at very least have coin mechs.... 
Maybe Mezel mods could print a longer armature link for early buyers to purchase or Rick could pay for them ?
I need to go look at my Stern Star Trek...
Because if my NIB LE has chip marks; I'm gonna be pissed.
Yeah; I expect a NIB to be defect free - we pay this kinda money for a working defect/free machine.
Else; we'd go buy a project machine to fix up.
I see both sides of this - but given how Ricky has acted toward Pinside / collectors in general; I expect you chipped guys to be stuck in the cold without anything more than a service bulletin - if that.
I'll be happy if I have to eat my words.
Presumably the fault in all this is that big metal plate that gets slid into the pants-press machine that does all the playfield dimpling. It will come down to whomever created/provided that template to production. Did CG create it, or given that it goes into their own machine does Stern create all those themselves? But then even if that is wrong can Stern argue that the QA process should have caught any clearance issues like that?
I suspect things are a little tense right now but maybe I'm wrong. In any case I think Rick will surprise everyone and make this right as it's not like he is selling these things at slash and burn prices to begin with. I know the one and only time I had a problem on a BAA order he went above and beyond to make it right.
The onus is all on CGC to fix these issues and hopefully satisfy the customers that have had issues. Anyone call CGC on this issue?
Quoted from viper001:Presumably the fault in all this is that big metal plate that gets slid into the pants-press machine that does all the playfield dimpling. It will come down to whomever created/provided that template to production. Did CG create it, or given that it goes into their own machine does Stern create all those themselves? But then even if that is wrong can Stern argue that the QA process should have caught any clearance issues like that?
Maybe they have the original from Gene's giant stash of stuff and the reality of the situation is that it's always been wrong. I remember Rick mentioning before that they had some of the old WMS guys pointing out issues they needed to address after the first few proto builds that were things they knew from having dealt with them on the original production. Maybe the marks for the kickers always were in the wrong place and the WMS assembly crew just adjusted to not trusting them and shifting a bit when installing.
Or maybe they don't have that and it's just a CPR like issue were a bunch of junk is just marked wrong and if you blindly believe it you're going to have a bad time.
Quoted from wdpvideo:I have 4 machines and they all have about 40 to 60 play and all have damage...This sucks....
unacceptable.
Quoted from epthegeek:Maybe they have the original from Gene's giant stash of stuff and the reality of the situation is that it's always been wrong.
I would think they would have had to make a MMr specific punch template plate. While some assemblies are the same and would presumably line up with the old build there are a lot of new boards mounted to the underside on the new game, and each of those would need their own pilot holes to be marked. Plus there is the issue that the previous games typically would not wear like this until the mechanism would wear down (coil stops and plungers) to the point that the arm would sweep further forward than spec. As someone pointed out if you let any game run with worn out parts it can mark a playfield like this.
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