Whay aren't all of you just DEMANDING your deposits back if you actually want out?

They are in breach of contract and there are consumer protection laws that are in place just for this very example (i.e. missed promises of deadlines, changed product, lack of clearly and publicly posted pre-order policy > note the policy does not mean jackshit once they have breached for changing the expected product and missed delivery).

There is a reason you have not seen PPS of any of the distributors comment on the above fact and that is because they know it is true and are scared of what happens.

Keep in mind that many distributors HAVE given back full refunds so this is obviously on an individual basis.

I suggest if you want out then you had better do it sooner rather than later.

If you also want to play along with their stupid BS games about "you can't get out untill you sell your spot" then you should ask them how many people are in front of you to get out?

needs to be publically posted and as far as I can tell I have seen nothing provided to many people and nothing in any public posting...

It is not completely black and white for anyone and I would agree that each person needs to read the contract they were provided at the time of their initial agreement and payment/pre-order with their particular distributor.

I will note that EVERY single person was originally pre-ordering a coin operated device and given a timeline for delivery.

The product has changed during that time frame (esp since many got in on Day 1 and MUCH has changed since then) and the delivery delays would likely not be deemed reasonable by any court. This is breech and pretty cut and dry if anyone needs to persure it.

The bigger point here is that nobody really wants to involve the lawyers but if you have 10, 20, or 100 people looking for a refund then it may be worthwhile to do so. What really needs to happen is to utilize the public forum for what it is great for... strength in numbers. If you are not getting a refund from your distributor and have requested it, then put it out into the public and let everyone else see the good from the bad.

Under federal consumer protection laws your are likely protected if you need to go the full legal route. It really shoudl not come to that and I would think EVERY business big enough to be an actual distributor shoudl be more concerned about saving face and maintaininga good business relationship.

who was it? Sharing may help others to know what tactic worked for you.

That is pretty insulting sounding. I think people have also woken up to the fact that what they imagined they were getting (an exact replica which would be collectible and hold value and startc delivering months ago) is not reality (a copy with different and unknown hardware sold in unlimited numbers with some evident problems and delays of delivery).

Many also have changed where they want to go with their collection in the past year. Wishy-washy would insinuate that they are going to change their mind again in the near future and want back in on MMR. The reality is NEW things have come to light inthe past year and PPS was not able to capitalize on their previous hype machine.

Really? currently 3 pinball makers (Spooky, Stern, JJP). 2 of them seem to be doing just fine with setting clear expectations and meeting them.

AMH have been delivering for a while now! You must not be paying attention. They set very clear expectations and from my understanding have met them every step of the way.

agreed.

Still crazy to me that actual BOM for this game has to be under 4k!

They will likely be paying for ALL development costs for the new platform in just the first coupld hundred games being sold.

Greed is a bad thing folks and I am guessing now that they wish they had priced it closer to 6500 and actually limited the run.

still crazy to me that you have a complete inability to use the powers of deduction and logic to piece together the cost of parts and labor for a relatively simple toy...

toss on scale of production at Stern and it does not take a genious to put a little math together.

Here, let me help you with a top down model to fester it out.

SkitB selling 250 predators at 4750. Spooky selling 150 AMH at under 6k.
They both have much higher development times, building of framework, labor costs, and no scale of production.

If these guys can do it for these prices then Stern can do it for WAY less. Keep in mind Stern sells pro models for under 5k so they are obviously making money at that mark. MMr had no design, art, development costs and many parts already made for the secondary market. 4k is the absolute most they should cost to make (including labor).

Really, I know plenty that sold for over what they paid before delivery but NONE that sold for less.

Yes, that is how deductive reasoning works... Use the information you have that you know to be factual, account for variables that are unknown to the best of your ability, make standard assumptions based on other facts, and BAM.

You can work the equation from a ground up build POV and come to a similar price point.

I can't say it any more clearly, but suffice to say that it does not cost more than 4k to make each game and if it does then they are not doing a very good job at controling the bottom line.

Actual cost is probably closer to $3500 but I shot high.

timing

it is a remake of a 20 year old title for 8k when there are NOW lots of other things coming to light.
The current onslaught of refund requested is really all about timing.

It appears to be the veritable straw that broke the camels back.

-No coin mechs and poor PR around it.
-Not limited in any way = no collectability
-In 1 years time reality has set in and peopel now see the decreased value in pretty much any non limited game as soon as they drive it off the lot. We all love pinball but nobody wants to lose 2k just to be first for something they have played before.
-In 1 year time there are now more choices than ever for new games and many are realizing that for 8k there is possibly more bang for your buck elsewhere.
-Issues with game setup at expo and no real excitment plus lack of attention to detail (flipped switches) combined with unknowns of new CPU and board leads to more questions

It all combines but the biggest difference is now 1 year has passed since the original announcemnet and things have changed.

I have stated them in other threads, but to summarize IMHO:
It felt like a stern built B/W game.
When I played on each, the games were flat and not pitched correctly (WHY anyone would do that is mind boggling when trying to show off a product and that alone speaks volumes to me about lack of attention to detail). They played floaty and felt nothing like any original I have ever played (and I have played MANY).
There are some issues with frame "tearing" but that is a concern at this stage of the game (i.e. these were supposed to start delivering months ago and still some pretty big issues with not being the complete package.) Others that understand more than I have said this may be a limitation of the new hardware?
Some upper lane switches were reverse which again speaks to lack of attention to detail.
To me the cab art did not look accurate to orignal. The trans also looked off but could be due to different lighting.

All in all, IN MY OPINION, they were nothing like a true remake and anyone paying attention would quickly note the differences from an original and this remake without even opening the hood.

Are you seriously trying to say that MMr will even be close to what HEP does?
If so, you have no idea what you are talking about, nor do you have the attention to detail needed to reasonably make that assessment.

I just dont jerk him off for everything he says. I also call complete BS on what he is saying.

Why would he not be not be approaching resellers (aren't they distributors BTW? when do you start calling your distributors resellers? WTF?) to sell them whatever game they want? Complete BS! Also, no mention of a "waitlist" for LEs as it obviously does not exist or everyone whom wants a refund would be getting their $$$ back immediately. You should all be way more concerned that now the story changes for the first time and he admits the LEs are not 'done'. Then he claims this was expected from the start??? WTH? gullible much?

You are oblivious if you think the market for MMR is growing and that is evidenced just from those that have bailed on pinside in the past week.

He then tries to talk about all the "great things" and neglects to even mention the issues (wrong switches, why present non-pitched games. frame tearing issues, etc...) It is starting to sound like the scammers that sell you a turd but only up sell the positives without acknowledging the issues.

Lastly he tries to say that buying an original at 8k is a challenge when he damn well knows they are easily found currently (probably not in the future when people re-evaluate the crap he is pushing and decide they want the real thing)

quoted for posterity below

Serious answer...

I am not worked up about this at all. This is an online forum for discussing pinball. No more, no less.

That said, I do not consider it wasted time or energy to hang out and talk pinball with other pinheads. I genuinely care about OUR hobby and by and large it is very evident to me that some companies are more concerned with taking as much as they possibly can from my fellow pinheads while doing nothing for the hobby itself. I can read through all the BS pretty clear and hope a few others wake up and realize whom they are tossing money at.

Would you buy a game from a guy that only points out the highlights and glosses over all the issues?
Serious question?

considering I highlight as many flaws as possible and have an attention to detail, no...

May want to do an IP search on this guy. Would be interesting to see who it really is.

all that matters in the end is that you are happy with your decision.