(Topic ID: 107062)

MMR refund... Refund received 11/10/14

By edwinpblue

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 7 years ago by labnip
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There are 468 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 10.
#201 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

At Expo 2013, MMr was ALL the talk. All the excitement surrounded MMr. People were preordering it left and right. "Holy crap, a new MM for only $8k, that kicks ass"!
Question: if MMr was announced for the first time at Expo 2014, how would it have been received? Given all the other options that were there, including TBL, Heighway, WOOLY, Hobbit etc?

If it had been announced as a limited run only, say 1000 units, it wouldve sold out. If it was announced as LE and regular production, it probably would have sold a lot less, with people waiting for the regular production to come to fruition as opposed to pre-paying/deposits...

#202 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Just think if the announcement for MMr had the full prototypes ready

Well there you have it...

#203 7 years ago

When the MMRLE sold for $7200 in another thread, I made a comment that it was a good deal based on what they sell for, but still $2700 too high as in it should be $4500 like a Stern Pro. In retrospect, that is a bit silly. I would take MMRLE over any Stern Pro. In fact, I think 6K would be the magic price point for me. And that's saying something as I've never even considered going that high for a game before. But hey, it's MM and it's #1 for a reason (probably my #4 or #5), but it's the hobby's #1. It's just a great game and a known quantity.

#204 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Best post of the day in any thread.

You read all of them?

#205 7 years ago

he's got a little competition...

brick-1.jpg

#206 7 years ago

The issue with pre-orders is that you have to accept you can lose all your money - it's as simple as that. If that feels uncomfortable, pre-orders are not the way to go!

#207 7 years ago

No victory lap… no, "I told ya so"… just glad some people are coming to their senses. Remakes are bad for the hobby and I hope they crash and burn. One and Done would be the best thing for the hobby long term. Its already going to be a rough, short-lived road for some of these new guys and remakes will just make it harder. Support the new stuff so we can see more of it year after year. MM, AFM, MB… they already exist and are out there in the market for everyone to enjoy. Have been for twenty years! We don't need more of the same taking up space and taking our hard earned cash.

Plus if you really want a MMrLE just wait a year… save some big bucks. We've already seen them drop as much as $1000 before production has even begun.

#208 7 years ago
Quoted from TaTa:

Did anybody try getting a refund from Automated?

Yep, they mailed a nice new $1,000 check to me. Of course this was about three months ago. Oh also had the option of putting it back on my card but it was already paid off.

#209 7 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

Yepper. Thought the machine looked awesome, but the language instantly turned me off. Wow! You're a big tough guy cause you cuss on stage. lol

The cursing on stage was totally inline with the cursing used in the movie. Maybe you have not seen the movie yet?

If you want a PG rated bowling themed pin, check out 300, Strikes & Spares, or Pin-up.

#210 7 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

No victory lap… no, "I told ya so"… just glad some people are coming to their senses. Remakes are bad for the hobby and I hope they crash and burn. One and Done would be the best thing for the hobby long term. Its already going to be a rough, short-lived road for some of these new guys and remakes will just make it harder. Support the new stuff so we can see more of it year after year. MM, AFM, MB… they already exist and are out there in the market for everyone to enjoy. Have been for twenty years! We don't need more of the same taking up space and taking our hard earned cash.
Plus if you really want a MMrLE just wait a year… save some big bucks. We've already seen them drop as much as $1000 before production has even begun.

Remakes drive the price of low number games down that is good of the hobby.Games selling at five figures is never good.

#211 7 years ago

Sure it is. If you are the one selling it.

Quoted from ek77:

.Games selling at five figures is never good.

#212 7 years ago
Quoted from ek77:

Remakes drive the price of low number games down that is good of the hobby.Games selling at five figures is never good.

So it is good that you can buy a remake for 8k today only to lose a grand or two later (maybe more) versus what is used to be... buying an expensive original only to sell it for the same or more later...

Interesting... I love losing thousands!

No, sorry but remakes are not all good! Not even close.

#213 7 years ago

Yes. It is good. Nobody buying a NIB game should expect 100% value back when they sell, because then it is used.

Buying games new, and then selling them for more after you open them means that the supply is very low, everyone who wants to buy a game should be able to. Low supply is bad.

Quoted from teekee:

So it is good that you can buy a remake for 8k today only to lose a grand or two later (maybe more)

#214 7 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

Yes. It is good. Nobody buying a NIB game should expect 100% value back when they sell, because then it is used.

It don't have to be 100% but it really sucks to lose 20%-30%... many just won't be able to afford that hit for very long.

What we are seeing with MMr is NIB are selling for $500 to $1000 less... STILL NEW IN BOX!

#215 7 years ago

If the prices get driven down to the point where the boutique guys fold, JG returns to distributing, and Stern is the last man standing again...is that good for the hobby? We are at (NIB Price - $2,000=HUO Price after six months) right now.

I really don't know. If pins cost less than $1,000, a lot more people would own them.

15
#216 7 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

What we are seeing with MMr is NIB are selling for $500 to $1000 less... STILL NEW IN BOX!

thats because 8k is a clown price to begin with.

#217 7 years ago

It is better to lose a grand then cough up 7k on a game you do not really want . People lose more than that on the stock market in 1 minute. Cut your losses and move on. Yes try to get a refund but don't stress it. You know the game is going down 2k as soon as it ships so your looking at saving 1k. Plus you avoid the hassle of selling a game people are going to be low balling like crazy. I faced this trying to sell my IM after the vault. Re-makes are bad for the hobby. Everything was better a year ago because you did not have so much uncertainty when you bought a game. Teekee is right.

#218 7 years ago

It won't be the "boutique" guys folding first. They are making what we want. See TBL, Alien and Jpop if he ever gets it worked out.

How long do you think Stern could go not producing a pinball machine with all that overhead and now a new facility coming online. Apparently they want to diversify into gaming. How else do you keep 250 employees busy. I guess after all this time of Stern basically brushing off the collector, the chickens might be coming home to roost.

Now you have the smaller guys like Heighway and Dutch that have proven their capabilities. Skitb and Jpop are on the verge hopefully.

Of all the pin makers, the biggest one is still last to the party with the LCD, Dots and DMDs, really?

Yeah I know, the new system is "coming soon". Just shows that the 800 pound gorilla can't shift course easily. After watching the Stern factory tour I understand why.

It leaves me to wonder in the aftermath of Expo, is it really a good thing that a pin maker can crank out 100's of pins in a short period of time. Is that really what we want? DP and other boutique guys might have changed the course of pinball for the better. Time will tell!

At the end of the day, I know one thing, I don't need to be buying 5 Nibs a year! Who is going to our money in 2015?

#219 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It leaves me to wonder in the aftermath of Expo, is it really a good thing that a pin maker can crank out 100's of pins in a short period of time. Is that really what we want?

this whole MMR fiasco has shown that sales evaporate the longer it takes. The Stern model of announcing a hot property and pumping out games overnight means they're going to be just fine. If they announced TWD and it took a year, they'd be selling 1/4 as much.

If anything, Stern brings on another design team, and ups their frequency of releases to make up for each title selling less. They have that ability. I don't see Stern going anywhere.

#220 7 years ago
Quoted from wolfy:

It is better to lose a grand then cough up 7k on a game you do not really want . People lose more than that on the stock market in 1 minute. Cut your losses and move on. Yes try to get a refund but don't stress it. You know the game is going down 2k as soon as it ships so your looking at saving 1k. Plus you avoid the hassle of selling a game people are going to be low balling like crazy. I faced this trying to sell my IM after the vault. Re-makes are bad for the hobby. Everything was better a year ago because you did not have so much uncertainty when you bought a game. Teekee is right.

Be prepared. The boo birds and financial experts will be here in no time flat to lecture (condition?) you on how pinball isn't an investment, you should expect to lose money, etc., etc. I'm glad others are finally speaking up.

I agree with you btw.

25
#221 7 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Be prepared. The boo birds and financial experts will be here in no time flat to lecture (condition?) you on how pinball isn't an investment, you should expect to lose money, etc., etc. I'm glad others are finally speaking up.
I agree with you btw.

No boo birds. Just realist. Pinball isn't an investment. It's a hobby and should be fun. Buy a game to keep an enjoy and you don't have to sweat this stuff.

Some of you always talk about losses. Do you ever put any value in the actual playing of a game. You buy a game at $8K, you and your family enjoys it for a year and then you sell if for $6K and you tell everyone you just lost $2K on the game. Sounds like priorities are in the wrong place as that $2K is not a loss if you equate in the enjoyment the item provided. If you don't get value out of a game in enjoyment then that's on you for buying it.

-1
#222 7 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

this whole MMR fiasco has shown that sales evaporate the longer it takes. The Stern model of announcing a hot property and pumping out games overnight means they're going to be just fine. If they announced TWD and it took a year, they'd be selling 1/4 as much.
If anything, Stern brings on another design team, and ups their frequency of releases to make up for each title selling less. They have that ability. I don't see Stern going anywhere.

We will see. They aren't getting any of my money after TWD if I decide to stay in on that one.

Right $ for $, they are inferior to the competition

They can't keep making cookie cutter, cost cutting pins that don't generate the wow factor.

So many missed opportunities with TWD.

With 250 employees and a fickle pinball group. There is no way Stern is "fine" with the collector.

Maybe they will be the location/pro/code doesn't really matter guy

#223 7 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

No boo birds. Just realist. Pinball isn't an investment. It's a hobby and should be fun. Buy a game to keep an enjoy and you don't have to sweat this stuff.
Some of you always talk about losses. Do you ever put any value in the actual playing of a game. You buy a game at $8K, you and your family enjoys it for a year and then you sell if for $6K and you tell everyone you just lost $2K on the game. Sounds like priorities are in the wrong place as that $2K is not a loss if you equate in the enjoyment the item provided. If you don't get value out of a game in enjoyment then that's on you for buying it.

Only 8 words in we got our lesson. lol.

You are probably so set in proving your point, you can't even begin to see how preachy and condescending your post is. What this "hobby" is to me is no more your concern than my concern over what you think the "hobby" is. It's none of my business how you enjoy the hobby.

#224 7 years ago

Sales may evaporate the longer it takes but PPS is just one of many now. Lots of new pins delivered in 2015.

With TH, TWD, and MMr, people like me are saying "do I really need or want them"!

Not with what other guys are doing. Nope

#225 7 years ago

I realize that this topic is about MMr/MMrLE deposit refunds, but it's still about money. And many things could be best explained by "following the money".

Does anyone know what the profit is for a pinball machine, understanding that there are differences between companies, such as start up costs and licensing, etc...?

So, what is Stern's ballpark profit per pin shipped?
What is the speculation for PPS and MMR/MMRLE?
JJP?

#226 7 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

No boo birds. Just realist. Pinball isn't an investment. It's a hobby and should be fun. Buy a game to keep an enjoy and you don't have to sweat this stuff.
Some of you always talk about losses. Do you ever put any value in the actual playing of a game. You buy a game at $8K, you and your family enjoys it for a year and then you sell if for $6K and you tell everyone you just lost $2K on the game. Sounds like priorities are in the wrong place as that $2K is not a loss if you equate in the enjoyment the item provided. If you don't get value out of a game in enjoyment then that's on you for buying it.

Amen to that!
Exactly why I'm in the hobby. It's the enjoyment of playing the game. That's where my value lies.
Mr Teekee just cares about how much money he makes when he sells a pin. He is very upset that MMRLE ever happened because it brings his overpriced MM back down to a realistic price for a used and most likely routed machine. I prefer to spend my hard earned cash on a NIB MM with updated systems and a warranty.

#227 7 years ago

Hwawonyu gets a nod from me; manning up and not trying to get others to soak up your "loss" on a change in decision you made.

You seem like a standup guy! In comparsion to all the other posts that being "I need to sell this for what I have into it" while ignoring market realities.

#228 7 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Only 8 words in we got our lesson. lol.
You are probably so set in proving your point, you can't even begin to see how preachy and condescending your post is. What this "hobby" is to me is no more your concern than my concern over what you think the "hobby" is. It's none of my business how you enjoy the hobby.

I couldn't actually care less about "proving my point". The only point that you seem to be missing, and I feel the need to rebuttal against, is the one of gain based off use. At min you should add up the number of games played and multiply that by $0.50 and subtract that from your so called loss. Those that can't even do that lose all credibility when they speak of "losses".

I do find the fact you feel that those without your same opinion are "boo birds" but can't comprehend the fact that you may actually be the one being the "boo bird". I do find that amusing. Thanks for that as I needed a good laugh this morning...

And you say I'm the one being preachy but you aren't equally guilty by trying to preach to others that investment can be made in pinball? I'm also sorry you can't understand that most of us don't consider this a function of financial gain (investment) and look for the enjoyment out of the product.

One last thing then I'm done as I feel no need to get into a pissing match around something so stupid. I should have said, "pinball is not a GOOD investment" vs just saying "pinball is not an investment" as technically, anything can be an investment. If you aren't making gains then that investment is not a GOOD one.

I'm off my rant now. You can have the last word if you feel necessary.

#229 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Right $ for $, they are inferior to the competition

LE? No doubt. WOOLY any day of the week rather than a Stern LE.

Pro? What's the competition in the $5k range?? None.
Predator was below $5k but is sold out. AMH and FT (Full throttle!) are $6k. TBL and Hobbit are $8-9k.

The hope we have would be to see Heighway pinball succeed and release kits for $4k or less. Once you have bought the first full game, every new Heighway game becomes the most competitive offer on the market.

Post edited by jlm33: Sorry: FT does not mean fish tales... Even with a signed translite you would have trouble selling Fish tales for $6k!

-7
#230 7 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

I couldn't actually care less about "proving my point". The only point that you seem to be missing, and I feel the need to rebuttal against, is the one of gain based off use. At min you should add up the number of games played and multiply that by $0.50 and subtract that from your so called loss. Those that can't even do that lose all credibility when they speak of "losses".
I do find the fact you feel that those without your same opinion are "boo birds" but can't comprehend the fact that you may actually be the one being the "boo bird". I do find that amusing. Thanks for that as I needed a good laugh this morning...
And you say I'm the one being preachy but you aren't equally guilty by trying to preach to others that investment can be made in pinball? I'm also sorry you can't understand that most of us don't consider this a function of financial gain (investment) and look for the enjoyment out of the product.

I hold no delusions that my opinion is in the vocal (vocal being the operative word) minority. I warned the poster he was going to get pounced on by the vocal majority and you bit. It took you 8 words to lecture about investments. So you want to equate your condescending diatribe about what the hobby should be to me, to a throw away boo birds comment, so be it. You cant see how condecending you are? now you are telling me how to depreciate a game? lol. I get it, you're the turn everything around rebuttal guy, gotcha. You must be a hoot if my first response gave you a laugh. Your day will be a real bang up now that I gave you a second. You're welcome.

Edit: Haha. Thanks Pez. Instead of just thumbing me down like usual, join the party. My money is on you that you can beat 8 words to preach about pinballs not being investments. Come on man, you can do it.

Edit #2: so you went back and edited your post to say I could have the last word even though you knew I had responded to you before your edit. Thanks. I guess? I wasn't aware one needed permission for a last word. If our banter was so stupid, perhaps you should have better impulse control before lecturing people on what the hobby should be to them.

Quoted from 85vett:

One last thing then I'm done as I feel no need to get into a pissing match around something so stupid. I should have said, "pinball is not a GOOD investment" vs just saying "pinball is not an investment" as technically, anything can be an investment. If you aren't making gains then that investment is not a GOOD one.
I'm off my rant now. You can have the last word if you feel necessary.

#232 7 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Predator was below $5k but is sold out. AMH and FT are $6k.

I'm confused...what exactly is FT?
I always thought FT meant Fishtales.

#233 7 years ago

Ft is being used for full throttle now as well.

#234 7 years ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

I'm confused...what exactly is FT?
I always thought FT meant Fishtales.

Sorry. Full Throttle. Heighway's first game. Will edit my original post

#235 7 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Ft is being used for full throttle now as well.

Confusing...thanks for clearing that up.

Someone needs to come up with a new abbreviation for one of those pins...

#236 7 years ago
Quoted from BestShot31:

What is the speculation for PPS and MMR/MMRLE?

Here's my best guess. Based on what has been posted about the relationship between PPS, Chicago Gaming, and Stern.

The MMr project is really a Chicago Gaming project. PPS is just the licensor and probably helped out by providing some original IP. I'm guessing CG had to purchase some parts for the game from PPS as well. From what I understand (and has been indicated by distributors who sent the money to Rick), PPS is keeping the deposit money ($1000 x 1000 = $1 million... all for allowing CG to make the game). (I have no idea if PPS is holding the money from the beginning or getting reimbursed after the money is collected.)

Without seeing a BOM and assembly labor costs, there's really no way to know what Stern and CG stand to make from manufacturing and financing the production of MMr, but it sure seems like CG is bearing most of the risk.

-1
#237 7 years ago

agreed.

Still crazy to me that actual BOM for this game has to be under 4k!

They will likely be paying for ALL development costs for the new platform in just the first coupld hundred games being sold.

Greed is a bad thing folks and I am guessing now that they wish they had priced it closer to 6500 and actually limited the run.

#238 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

We will see. They aren't getting any of my money after TWD

LOL

#239 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Now you have the smaller guys like Heighway and Dutch that have proven their capabilities. Skitb and Jpop are on the verge hopefully.

None of these companies have shipped a single game to a paying customer. Dutch has proven they can produce a kickass prototype. Lots of custom pinball makers here on this forum have also done kickass custom machines. Ramping that up to a repeatable manufacturing process that requires hundreds of workers, millions of dollars of capital, expensive tools and facilities, etc etc etc... that's the real challenge in Pinball. Doing it profitably is incredibly hard. Why do you think Williams got out of the game?

#240 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Greed is a bad thing folks

greed.jpg
#241 7 years ago

2 or 3 guys selling less than MSRP doesn't set the market.

Quoted from teekee:

What we are seeing with MMr is NIB are selling for $500 to $1000 less... STILL NEW IN BOX!

#242 7 years ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

Confusing...thanks for clearing that up.

Someone needs to come up with a new abbreviation for one of those pins...

A. All we are talking about is Full throttle now anyway.
B. Maybe ft Fish Tales / FT full throttle : )

#243 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

agreed.
Still crazy to me that actual BOM for this game has to be under 4k!

still crazy to me that you can just make up numbers out of thin air and present them as fact.

13
#244 7 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

The cursing on stage was totally inline with the cursing used in the movie. Maybe you have not seen the movie yet?

No it wasn't.

Not even close. I don't buy for a second that he was acting out in some kind of role from the movie. Didn't even come close to appearing that way. What it came across as was unprofessional, and someone that was trying too hard to be cool.

Great product. Terrible presentation.

#245 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

No it wasn't.
Not even close. I don't buy for a second that he was acting out in some kind of role from the movie. Didn't even come close to appearing that way. What it came across as was unprofessional, and someone that was trying too hard to be cool.
Great product. Terrible presentation.

Gamora: I'm a warrior, an assassin. I don't dance.
Peter Quill: Really? Well, on my planet, we have a legend about people like you. It's called Footloose. And in it, a great hero, named Kevin Bacon, teaches an entire city full of people with sticks up their butts that, dancing, well, is the greatest thing there is.
Gamora: ...Who put the sticks up their butts?

#246 7 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Ft is being used for full throttle now as well.

We are going to be using FTH for Full Throttle, not FT.

#247 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

No it wasn't.
Not even close. I don't buy for a second that he was acting out in some kind of role from the movie. Didn't even come close to appearing that way. What it came across as was unprofessional, and someone that was trying too hard to be cool.
Great product. Terrible presentation.

This could not be more spot on. Unless you are a stand up comedian there really is no reason ever to curse when presenting to a large group of people, it just doesn't come off professionally. Act like you have been there before . . .

#248 7 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

2 or 3 guys selling less than MSRP doesn't set the market.

True, but its more than 2-3 guys and it sure looks bad this early in the game… never before seen in a game not even manufactured yet. UGH...

-1
#249 7 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

still crazy to me that you can just make up numbers out of thin air and present them as fact.

still crazy to me that you have a complete inability to use the powers of deduction and logic to piece together the cost of parts and labor for a relatively simple toy...

toss on scale of production at Stern and it does not take a genious to put a little math together.

Here, let me help you with a top down model to fester it out.

SkitB selling 250 predators at 4750. Spooky selling 150 AMH at under 6k.
They both have much higher development times, building of framework, labor costs, and no scale of production.

If these guys can do it for these prices then Stern can do it for WAY less. Keep in mind Stern sells pro models for under 5k so they are obviously making money at that mark. MMr had no design, art, development costs and many parts already made for the secondary market. 4k is the absolute most they should cost to make (including labor).

#250 7 years ago

That's not true. Tons of WOZ games were sold for less than MSRP before delivery.

Quoted from teekee:

True, but its more than 2-3 guys and it sure looks bad this early in the game… never before seen in a game not even manufactured yet. UGH...

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