Sent to PPS. Refund would come out of our pocket. Then if we had to reduce the order number with PPS. But We had so few I would just keep my number where it is and horde it =)

I was in on the preorder. I contacted my distributor about a month ago and asked for my deposit back. I was told no. I told them I would take it up with my credit card company for non-deilivery and the distributor sent me my deposit back last week.

popcorn-deer.gif

There's a reason you're the best!
Thanks for being an asset to the pinball world.
I'd never hesitate to give you a stack of cash

Wow. I haven't read the MMR stuff since September. Did something happen between then and now that people are looking to cancel in droves? I mean, if Stern is making the games, and they have a production run test machine, and are waiting on UL, I'd think they're not that far away?

I dunno. I trust Stern as a manufacturer. If PPS was doing this on their own I would be more worried, but Stern has the capacity to churn out games, and the reputation of getting them out the door.

Disclaimer: I do not have an MMR ordered.

who was it? Sharing may help others to know what tactic worked for you.

I asked JJP for a refund last January and had it within a week.

A bunch of new stuff got shown and these wishy-washy flakes are distracted by the shiny new thing.

What Stack of Cash? I have no Idea what you are talking about. I did have a great but un fruitful time at the Casino on the way to the airport thought.

JJ

That is pretty insulting sounding. I think people have also woken up to the fact that what they imagined they were getting (an exact replica which would be collectible and hold value and startc delivering months ago) is not reality (a copy with different and unknown hardware sold in unlimited numbers with some evident problems and delays of delivery).

Many also have changed where they want to go with their collection in the past year. Wishy-washy would insinuate that they are going to change their mind again in the near future and want back in on MMR. The reality is NEW things have come to light inthe past year and PPS was not able to capitalize on their previous hype machine.

Nope. The only "contract" I had was a cashed check with "MMRLE deposit" on the memo line.

After quarter two came and went so did quarter three. But the machine wouldn't take any quarters even when complete.

Or some people were turned off by poor customer service/PR?

That certainly would free up a lot of options for someone looking to get a recovery. While it doesn't entirely end forum/venue issue I identified (for discussion purposes only) as venue is always an issue it would address the concern of stipulating to some unknown or unreasonable venue at the time the contract was signed.

You needed a Jay Leno drum roll on that joke . . .

Chances are that MM is a better overall machine than much of the new stuff coming out, but the potential in something new is a lot more exciting!

1 year of cooling off.

Everybody knew it was different hardware when it was announced, so that reason is bogus.

The question was what happened that has a bunch of people wanting to bail - the obvious answer is that new stuff got shown and impulse buyers want to preorder that new thing instead of the thing they preordered last time when a new thing was shown. Impulsive, wishy-washy, flighty, I don't care what you want to call it in particular.

And before anybody starts hurling around "but some people have financial issues, man". Yeah, I'm not talking about everybody. I'm talking about the bleating herd that suddenly wants to go another direction.

That's funny. That's the first thing I check in any contract I sign is where the venue is. The other big one is waiving a jury trial.

Sounds harsh but I agree with the sentiment, if not the wording.

PPS asked for deposits that would become non-refundable to tell them how many machines to make. PPS (and many distributors) are now treating the deposits as non-refundable. Doesn't seem too surprising. Assuming buyers intentionally stayed in past the "lock-in date" (I'm aware that some distributors had unannounced lock-in dates prior to PPS', which is a whole different issue), I'm not convinced that a couple of months delay gets them out of their commitment to buy the machine, or sacrifice their deposit if they don't. Of course they might have a good legal argument to get out of the deal, but I don't see a strong moral argument that they're being screwed by their distributors/PPS at this late date if refunds are being refused.

Some new shit came to light!

So you really were trying to be a jerk in your previous post? I was giving you the benefit of a doubt that you were teasing people.

So this is all about the buyer and has nothing to do about the vendor who has grossly overshot the announced start to production?

I'm that guy and its exactly why I sold my spot and did not fight for refund. I used my Amex but if a If I cancelled that and used the card I would risk. Encore not taking Amex anymore.
It's on me that I want another game not them so I took ownership .
Now had the game been delivered when I thought I would have enjoyed it for few months but regardless I would be selling it for TBL. Not for any reasons that fault PPs or their distros

Yeah, WOOLY, TBL, Slight Screen Tearing, High leveled front legs at Expo, and Fear-mongering to name a few.

I'm still in and happy to be in. But seems like the people are getting restless. Rick needs to come on here and announce a limit of 500-750 units to be produced to stop the bleeding. At this rate, I don't see standards seeing the light of day.

This has been one of my concerns as well. I think there's an argument to be made that because this is so late, they have a legal responsibility to provide a refund, but I'm no lawyer.

You can call it wishy washy if that makes you feel like a more special. Had I not gone to expo and seen and played both games side by side I certainly would still be in.
Simple fact is I had much more fun on the new game than that and made decision after three days of playing comparitivly and few days of thought after.
Besides I make enough money to do what th f I want : ) yay!

Everything in pinball overshoots the schedule. Except stern, since they just make things and then dump them on people like clockwork. Everybody else, though, fails to keep to a timeline. All of them. And PPS isn't even that far off, since they signed up Stern to do the production which should go pretty quick (compared to how it would have been with someone else manufacturing them) so they'll be a lot closer to their expected delivery timeframe than they would have otherwise. "Grossly" sure.

I dunno about that
It sure helped but I've noticed it was a slight stream of drop outs pre expo and new releases

If you need to down size sell your LOTR with MMR there are know surprises you know what you will get. There will be no surprises like other pre orders .

Everyone overshoots so that makes it ok? I'll answer it for you. No, it doesn't. So people who change their mind are wishy washy and flaky. What does that make vendors who can't set realistic production schedules, incompetent? Give me a break. Get the f'ing game to market and there wouldn't be an issue of losing people's attention. And yes it's grossly past the time they were supposed to start making these.

PPS did not allow payments by credit card. Don't know about other distributors.

Say what you want about Automated Svs, but they take credit card. Want your money back? Takes 2 days.

I know it's been mentioned before, but to me, the coin door issue is a dealbreaker.

However, I have zero legal experience, so what do I know?

If MMR is still delivered within the expected timeframe who cares if other "behind the scenes" things were delayed? Think of the people who preordered WOZ and how long they waited. To me it seems like grasping for excuses to get out of the preorder. I don't know why I'm wasting time posting about this. I guess I am baffled though considering PPS has 2 more months to get the machines out in time. I understand that's not a lot of time, but we technically aren't past the expected delivery timeframe.

Again if you like TBL, WOOLY, etc... better that's fine, but it's not PPS's fault you changed your mind. If they can deliver your MMR before 2015 I wouldn't provide any refunds if I was them. Just being honest.

Hwawonyu took the loss like a man because he changed his mind. That's the way it should be handled for anyone who changed their mind.

Yep, if you paid by cc, just call them up and challenge it. Non-delivery. Case closed.

I think you missed his point. He wasn't saying not delivering on time was okay, but he was saying that cancelling the MMR for another company that is probably not going to deliver on time is a pretty dumb when your reasoning for canceling MMR is they didn't deliver on time.

Isn't it just the mechs? Aren't coin mechs like $25? If I am going to blow $8K on a pinball machine, $50 worth of mechs, mostly unused, wouldn't sway me. The thing that would sway me is years of waiting. JJP was 2+ years late with WOZ... and most people hung in there. If I recall correctly most of the cancellations were due to game design (ie. stop and go vs flow).

Really? currently 3 pinball makers (Spooky, Stern, JJP). 2 of them seem to be doing just fine with setting clear expectations and meeting them.

Nope. You generally only have 60 or 90 days to dispute a charge.

It's a lot of small stuff, really. Now, I was never "in", because.. I thought it was dumb from the get-go... but if I had gotten in, what I've seen over the past year would have made me want to get out for sure.

THIS. I mean, do we know what kind of factory Dutch Pinball, or any of the other boutiques have? I just don't get it. I mean, I sympathize, $8k is a lot of money and it sucks the game is late. But I think the timeframe originally was ambitious and executing a pinball machine in 1 year for mass manufacture is pretty friggin good. 6 months is late, but its not 2 years late. And there's lots of evidence that most game issues are resolved and its just creating the games, right? Am I missing something?

?????????? Typo ????????

Wish-washy is not the correct term. I would say front runners is more accurate. If you follow most new companies or just new games this always happens. Everyone is all in because this is the best and they must have it. A year later it is not out yet and several new things are the best and they must have it. MM is still the top ranked game on Pinside so the majority still loves the game and no new games have come close to dethroning the top 4. People still love these games and I think buyers will be happy with MMR. Some people just have to be front runners, doesn't mean they are getting the best. Just means they always have a ton tied up in preorders. We are very likely be having the same discussion this time next year about all of the games there were home runs at this years expo.

Nevermind... re-read.... Definitely "One of these things is not like the other" ... LOL

A lot of problems are solved by avoiding a pre-order in the first place. Buy when it's ready.

Dude, I know you said you hadn't been following the MMr threads closely, but the coin mechs are a huge can of worms! On one hand people are going insane over a relatively cheap and rarely used part, but Rick's handling of the announcement and blow-back was horrible PR and soured a lot of people on PPS's approach to customer service.

Que? JJP's only game was years late. Are you serious? Spooky? Is that out yet? Yah, Stern is on time, if you consider alpha version .014 an acceptable software release for production.

#coinmechgate !!!

agreed, forgot to add recently.

This is one of the big ones. Do you want to support a company like that?