same status here,
I asked, Jack and got the same response as you.

With the Dutch Pinball guys being more customer focused and having a liberal cancellation policy,
you know we will be recommending them over JJP to all friends and new collectors

Everyone starts out Rainbows and Unicorns but history has proved that shit is just around the corner !

Quoted for truth. Rick was the Belle of the Ball only a year ago, with a running machine shown... and here we are.

Same here, I tried to get my refund back in July. Jack told me I would get it back once they sell my spot.

It's going to be hard to sell all these refund spots, it looks like....

one sold yesterday in under 3 hours, granted it was for $7200 IIRC.

7200 shipped!

So, you can essentially get your 1000 dollars back, as long as you want it to look like 200 bucks. Less shipping

Yep, $800 savings. That one was a good deal. I am not sure many new people are going to come in at 8k at this stage. Perhaps once the game is shipping, which will be soon apparently.

I'm about to ask for mine, unless I hear something real quick! I'm through PPS though.

resale value on remakes is looking good ...... for the buyers

Very true.

I think the problem is that everyone who was willing to spend $8k for an MMr has already ordered one and there isn't anything new to reveal to generate more hype as often happens with other new machines.

With so many new guys appearing, people will be more hesitant to put deposits on any game without a solid production date

translation: you're eating it.

I hear there's a waiting list…

Question: is he the one who is selling your spot or are you the one who needs to find the buyer? I guess what I am asking is if someone new called him does he sell them an entirely new spot or is there a list that Jack is running where he is actively transferring people's spot?

Or, do you not know?

Whay aren't all of you just DEMANDING your deposits back if you actually want out?

They are in breach of contract and there are consumer protection laws that are in place just for this very example (i.e. missed promises of deadlines, changed product, lack of clearly and publicly posted pre-order policy > note the policy does not mean jackshit once they have breached for changing the expected product and missed delivery).

There is a reason you have not seen PPS of any of the distributors comment on the above fact and that is because they know it is true and are scared of what happens.

Keep in mind that many distributors HAVE given back full refunds so this is obviously on an individual basis.

I suggest if you want out then you had better do it sooner rather than later.

If you also want to play along with their stupid BS games about "you can't get out untill you sell your spot" then you should ask them how many people are in front of you to get out?

You are not able to say this with full certainty.

Do you have the contract they allegedly breached? One benefit of selling through distributors (for a manufacturer) is the distributor has to deal with angry customers. The distributor (usually) has a level of insulation as well because most distributor purchase agreements with a customer contain clauses saying they are not responsible for delays from the manufacturer (and different jurisdictions look to enforce those clauses in different ways and it is certainly not uniform from state to state).

I don't know the answer to these questions, as I have not seen what anyone signed when they paid their deposit. But getting a deposit back is always messy when paid to third parties who are able to point the finger at someone else.

What JJP is doing, by not giving refunds, sounds illegal.

I've been thinking about bailing out too.

And yes, I'm paid in full thru JJP for my MMr.

With the missed production schedule, (2nd qtr 2014) and all of the UL crap going on, I'm really starting to think I made a BIG mistake by ordering the MMrLE.

needs to be publically posted and as far as I can tell I have seen nothing provided to many people and nothing in any public posting...

The way this is going we may see those same MMr cabinets at next years Stern tour.

To get a refund...

$7200 shipped = forfeit of $1k deposit

I'd like to see the deposit model go away but there are too many suckers willing to fork over cash for an undeveloped product for manufacturers to do anything but keep asking for it.

Have to agree with this, Whysnow. And consumer protection laws may vary state to state, so unless you've done actual research on both the law and the actual contracts (oral or written) that MMr buyers have with their various distributors, you might want to tone down the black and white legal analysis you've offered here and in other threads. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but I question how you can be so sure that all MMr buyers have an open-and-shut case for a full refund at this point.

If January 1st 2015 comes around and the buyer didn't receive MMR then maybe they have a chance. The expectation was that the games would be delivered before the end of this year. I'm not sure where you are coming up with your information.

I hope you payed by Amex, you will almost certainly get your money back! Otherwise, I am afraid it's just rainbows and unicorns for you my friend

Are you not entitled to a refund because of the extensive delays?

To piggy back on this good point, the problem is not limited to whether someone has a valid cause of action, but what sort of practical recourse is there to that cause of action?

I can say with a reasonable measure of confidence that no attorney (unless it is a close family member doing you a favor) is going to take a case on a contingent basis with $1,000 in damages regardless of the underlying merit.

Some people will respond to that by saying "I'd just take them to small claims court myself" . . . the answer to that is, what if there is a forum selection clause in the contract that says any dispute is heard (through by arbitration or the courts) in Texas or Delaware or California (or Mexico...).

When you talk about legal recourse, nothing is ever easy, nothing is ever simple, and rarely is $1,000 enough to really fight over (there are always exceptions).

So true......and this is why I will never buy a nib ever again. So happy I can be patient for a tricked out huo. Thanks to all early bird innovators.....Your loss is my gain.

At a certain point... Both sides have to worry about what 1000 dollars is "worth", I think.

I'm glad I got my money back last November. A little birdie told me that was the smart thing to do.

not very nice to post this as there are many mmre customers who would love to be in your situation.

See that's where things get iffy. JJP as far as I know didn't have a written refund policy or a formal contract. When things started being delayed, PPS was quick to point out their written refund policy was for their orders only and have no control over their distros. I'm guessing most everyone read PPS's refund policy and assumed it was across the board. Shitty all the way around if you ask me.

Sorry!

They did not have a machine at Expo 2013 BTW.

I watched the PPS seminar from expo this year and it was tough to watch. I didn't have a problem with Rick's announcements, but the crowd seemed like they wanted to have him hanged.

Are people that impatient that they want to go through all sorts of trouble to cancel a preorder only to preorder another machine with probably more unknowns than MMR? Meaning another pin that will take even longer to be delivered to you?

I really don't care what people do with their money, but it's ridiculous to me.

It's going to suck for those who back out and have a change of heart once MMR releases and then they gotta go through more trouble to get one (cancel on whatever other machine they preorder on).

Just seems like people either like to cause problems for themselves or they can't make a decision and stick with it.

Is it just a problem with Pinball Sales giving refunds, or are all MMR distributors not allowing refunds without selling the spot?

It's kind of sad that this is what it's come to. I remember the original policy was no selling spots.

I know of one other refusing a refund.

Actually, the more I learn about that MMr machine, the less I like it.

And, I think everyone has recourse for their money back, as the terms of the deal were changed after the "no refund" window with the "no coin mech" fiasco.

A coin operated machine with no way to accept a coin? Who ever heard of such a thing???

yeah it will really suck picking up a huo for 2k less for those that backed out.

We are doing refunds for any of our (Very Few) Games. We were late into the game on MMRLE's

I should note, I'm specifically talking about people getting out of one preorder (MMR) to get in on another. If you simply fell out of love with MMR NP. But it seems like some are upset just because of delays. We are not past the projected shipping times so that's the only reason I asked.

If that's the case I think it would be insane to get out of the MMR preorder and assume everything will run smoothly with any other preorder.

This surprises me. Jack is not new to the world or retail and he does have attorneys he works with regularly. One would think he would not take money in without a formal contract of some kind; I guess the matter was rushed together so perhaps some mistakes were made . . .

this is my interpretation of "over delivering" looks like. sure wish other distros would practice what they preach...

Just out of curiosity, was your business holding the deposits or did you send them to PP?

I hear you there. Preorders exist to capitalize on excitement. But, you had better be prepared to deliver on that excitement in short order, or people are going to get restless and move on to other things.

It is not completely black and white for anyone and I would agree that each person needs to read the contract they were provided at the time of their initial agreement and payment/pre-order with their particular distributor.

I will note that EVERY single person was originally pre-ordering a coin operated device and given a timeline for delivery.

The product has changed during that time frame (esp since many got in on Day 1 and MUCH has changed since then) and the delivery delays would likely not be deemed reasonable by any court. This is breech and pretty cut and dry if anyone needs to persure it.

The bigger point here is that nobody really wants to involve the lawyers but if you have 10, 20, or 100 people looking for a refund then it may be worthwhile to do so. What really needs to happen is to utilize the public forum for what it is great for... strength in numbers. If you are not getting a refund from your distributor and have requested it, then put it out into the public and let everyone else see the good from the bad.

Under federal consumer protection laws your are likely protected if you need to go the full legal route. It really shoudl not come to that and I would think EVERY business big enough to be an actual distributor shoudl be more concerned about saving face and maintaininga good business relationship.

Best post of the day in any thread.