This topic is closed.
Just received my invoice and was surprised to see that I will be charged shipping from Chicago. I was counting on picking up the machine from pps since I live locally since I will already be incurring 700 dollars in sales tax.I'm not sure if this is commonplace but I did think this was a bit unfair (btw I do appreciate the bias here) to get slapped with that shipping charge as I would normally have avoided such a charge from any other sale. Just thought I would ask for the rationale here.
Quoted from PPS:
I'm just not even sure why you would post that here vs email me - as I a) have no idea who you are, b) not sure if this is a pps invoice, c) not sure where you live, d) not sure what the other situation are, d) not sure that you've talked to us about this, e) if you live in California, then we are a California corp, f) I'm not sure what 'locally' as the games are made in Chicago, not California, and I'm sure I could come up with g thru n as well. Best to contact me directly, you can email or call.
Well as my location shows I'm in San Jose. PPS is in San Jose. The "other" kind of situation I'm talking about would be, for example, if I walked into a store (I.e. a book store or auto parts store) and put in an order for a part or book which was not currently in the store, they would not be charging me for the shipping from their warehouse to their store. I would just go to the store and pick up the item once they received it.
Rick, no offense meant here.I posted here because this could well be a question another customer had which could be addressed all at one time. Also I've never had a nib pin nor have I ever had one shipped to me so you'll have to excuse my ignorance on the matter. Still, though,I think my logic has some basis to it and think that it is a reasonable question to ask and that this forum is a reasonable place to ask it. Hopefully I don't get too much negative press here but for an expenditure this great I thought it was worth it to ask the question. Respectfully.
Quoted from starbase:
It's being made in Chicago so shipping is from out of state. I wish you were correct but to my knowledge you won't be able to pick up for free in California but I can see how you would think that yotaxi. 700 sounds extremely high for shipping though I would shop around a bit for shipping.
Yeah, the 700 is actually sales tax. So I probably shot myself in the foot there, but I just thought I could make up for it a little by just swinging by PPS and picking it up. Just hurts the wallet (ouch!)
Quoted from Concretehardt:
Relax guys! Getting all freaked out by progress pics of an early prototype will only make Rick less likely to show us stuff like this. It's not like Rick said here is a 1 minute video commit now and your deposit is non refundable. If castle destruction sequence and LED fading issues are all all the issues they have to deal with then PPS is way further along than I thought they would be at this point.
So in a nutshell... let's not kill the goose that is getting ready to lay 1000 golden eggs.
Yup, what this guy said... 15 years after the fact, you'd be stupid if you tried to use the exact electrical components, anyway.
For below the playfield (electronics), all that matters is that they work.
For above the playfield, all that matters is how it plays. And with the few issues to be remedied (castle destrcution etc.), this will be fantastic.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
I think you are wrong about this.
SMD LEDs are almost indestructible under a wide range of uses.
Not saying I know much about the issue, but I am less concerned with the actual LEDs "blowing" than I am with the boards' on which the LEDs are socketed (or whatever is the correct term) requiring repair/maintenance.
I should say, though, that believe it or not, I have never built a pinball machine (yet?).
(still super pumped about my brand new MMR!!!)
Quoted from Eryeal:
+1 on everything people seem to be saying - the transparency is greatly appreciated. Yes it will be tough to keep up as there are many bad apples out there that of course make transparency frustrating, and make you want to just close up and keep everything private. I've had my issues with the non-transparency of other manufacturers, and it's refreshing to see so much involvement at this point - hopefully that continues through the entire process.
Agreed, there's definitely a reasonable middle ground here. Personally, I feel very well-informed, and you can't expect Rick to comment on something that hasn't happened yet.
I guess some people as well are coming off as impatient when they are really just super pumped about getting their MMr!
Thanks, again, Rick. Just don't leave us hanging (not that you have)
Quoted from pezpunk:
please save everyone the headache of reading your future outraged posts and cancel now. thanks.
why should PPS cater the lighting in their game to your specific oddball preference?
You know,I am just super pumped to get a NIB MMr, but I really don't think the concern over the lighting being a potential deal-breaker is an "oddball" preference.
Lighting is a really REALLY important part of the aesthetics of a game. And to be honest, in this day and age with advanced lighting/LED technology AND the price (which, btw, I'm happy to live with as long as the product is TOP notch in quality), it really isn't all that much to ask that the lights be able to dim to a certain lighting level and color...
It was indeed weird that Steven assumed you never played MM back in the day; but the truth is that his preference still is NOT an 'oddball' preference. Different people have different preferences. Let's all put this point to bed and move on, shall we?
Quoted from StevenP:
P.S. Pez, your remarks such as 'getting panties in a bunch' and categorizing this as "silly drama" is not taking the high road. You're not that subtle.
It wasn't Pez who said he was taking the high road. Can we move on?
I'll admit I'm in the "just happy to be getting a NIB MM" camp, but to speak on the lighting issue, I definitely would prefer as much customizability (like dimming etc.) as possible concerning the lighting considering that the bulbs cannot be changed easily (if at all).
Quoted from PPS:
WMS Legal Approval received today - on to procuring parts and building the proto's.
so the blog update says:
"Given that we are still working on getting some of the prototypes together which will take several weeks, we will not be freezing any deposits until we have games readily available to play as well as things like the choice of gold trim, etc."
Does this mean that customers of record can swing by and actually try out the game before the deposits are "frozen"?
Quoted from frolic:
Rick, as an MMR buyer I appreciate the updates and info, but to be honest seeing the never-ending debate doesn't help me at all. So please keep us updated, but don't feel need to spend all day on here.
Quoted from LitzDoc:
Rick take the weekend off. Don't look at this thread for a while. Any pressing questions can wait or if they want answers they can call you. I do appreciate the access you give to us customers. It is unprecedented as far as I can tell. Have a good weekend.
Yup completely agree here. I used to get antsy when this thread would have no activity, but this is something else, entirely...
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:
Thanks for understanding. I agree it is a difference but not a big one IMO. That said, I'm not a huge fan of kickbacks so that could be the reason behind my indifference. The LE VUK does slow the game down a bit and returns to the flipper but even that IMO is a somewhat small difference. LE is definitely easier but to some that is not always preferable by all. Sometimes I like a little extra challenge like on the ST Pro. As always to each their own were not all gonna like the same stuff. The layout is exactly the same was my main point gameplay is slightly different IMO. Sorry to go off topic guys. I guess what I was trying to say is I would prefer all LE models have very small or even non existing gameplay/layout differences from the standard models as like with MMR.
the reason i hate kickbacks is because it makes it damn near impossible to nudge your way out of a drain down the unlit kickback lane.... it ends up being less helpful, in my opinion.
Quoted from metallik:
This is true, but only if the kb relight is too hard WRT the likelyness of a drain. STTNG left outlane is brutal but at any point you only gotta hit one target to relight the kickback. Getaway is harder in that you have a timed bank of 3 targets to hit, but I still found my ball times improved once I focused on relighting kickback whenever it got used up. Whitewater is another one - the red bounceback targets are relatively safe to hit, so always relight kickback once you use it up.
yeah, all valid points. most of my experience w/ kb is with Terminator 2. 3 targets on the far right to relight and i never really try going that route. also, the machine would benefit from being better dialed in. would love to see a sticky post with tutorials for "dialing in" some of these pins (especially ones with center drain posts which never help unless the machine is set up correctly! lol)
Quoted from PPS:
Checking on some feedback for the group ... if there is a next game and there is an LE for the next game, we are thinking of giving existing MMR LE customers first dibs on them (same game #, etc). We would then also limit the LE's to somewhere <1000 (which could be 1000, or just the MMR LE people who want the next game and cap at that ... not sure yet). Would be interested in the wisdom from the group here ...
Quoted from Aurich:
My vote, for what it's worth, is to just stop with the LE nonsense and offer awesome remakes to everyone. I understand why it made sense with MMr, but now that the model is proven and people obviously are interested and will put money down just make them all great and equal.
You could still sell upgrades, like optical glass or whatever.
I'll be honest though, if you keep $8k as your pricepoint for all future remakes you can ignore my voice, because I just can't justify that much for an old pin, no matter how nicely redone. If MM was the high priced entry, and the rest are operating on Stern Premium prices then that's a different story.
Yup. I'm still mystified by the price. I understand that the boards are new and different, and I get that a MMr is going to be priced at MM prices, I think that any subsequent remakes should really be at the pro Stern pro price point and forget about all this limiting quantities nonsense. In my opinion, this is a great opportunity for people to own and play awesome pins which are in new condition. But what I don't agree with is charging double for this opportunity. I am in for this MMr no matter what, but if the next pins aren't at least competitive with the pro Stern price points, I doubt I'd ever consider actually purchasing one myself.
Q2 is not that far off. when do y'all think they'll start shipping? early q2? late q2?
the thing is that we all know it doesn't take 8k to make this pin. there's a nice fat premium which they have chosen to charge because of the clout surrounding this particular pin, its being one of the most, if not THE most, expensive pins out there. therefore, it's perfectly reasonable to request,... hell, even demand, that certain measures are taken to ensure the long-term quality right out of the box.
Quoted from Asylum:
Don't think for a second that Rick is making massive profits on this... Williams also helps set the price by the amount they require for licensing. Just look at what Joe is going through to make a licensed AFM topper.
The more hands in the cookie jar the more likely you end up with just crumbs.
That's definitely a fair argument to make. However, there's still a nice measure of profit floating out there. If I am wrong about this, then it would mean that every subsequent remake that Rick does will be at the 8K price point, meaning the reason for the 8k is the cost to PPS, and not because of the fact that it's a Medieval Madness.
We have seen people say on this thread that they can stomach the price point only because it's a pin which would otherwise call for a comparably high price in the wild. Any other remake (like Rollergames or <insert cheap pin here>, these customer are going to expect a drop in price.
well, first of all, I think you get that I was just making a little joke w/ the Rollergames example (hopefully you got it hehe). but you do raise another good point in that a well-established company like Stern already has the scalability to be able to pump out a game at the 5k price point.
the real question is does it really cost 160% of the 5k price point for a startup to produce a game a) which has already had a release period, and b) for which demand was a certainty, meaning, yes people are going to buy every last one of these machines. i'm not saying i know how to produce pinball machines, but in all honesty i doubt it.
If the answer is still yes, then please tell me what yer smokin' 'cause I want some, too
i guess those are the questions that those failed pinball companies forgot to consider...
Quoted from jalpert:
Did you guys get that castle destroy sequence nailed down? How about the LEDs and that strobe issue?
Is there anything you guys are still working on / any outstanding issues at this point? Any word on the trim? Are the games going to Texas LE or standard cabs? Is the HQ audio there yet?
Rick is liable to turn this truck right around and go home if you don't pipe down back there, mister
Quoted from jalpert:
Yes, I was being funny. But on the other hand, if the game isn't perfect, best to tell us now. The last thing I want to see are 2 pages of refake idiots with "I told you so's."
I'm assuming this is the final, 100% completed game, but maybe not.
Well, I really hope it is 100% complete. I agree with you there, I mean, if it isn't complete by now, then we are behind schedule for Q2 shipment I would imagine.....
Quoted from PPS:
A quick summary from TPF:
- The two pilot games played great all weekend long - no major issues and very few minor things (a wire came off the castle switch, shooter lane wire got stuck and just had to bend it a little), flipper adjustments (primarily due to power feed fluctuating from down to 100V, etc), and possibly a couple more things ...
- Both games were on and playing for around 40 hours almost non-stop, and no electronics issues (which we expected none) of any kind.
- Most important was a huge consistent feedback that the game played just like 'their' original game that many people have. This is the most important and this is what we almost universally heard.
- People liked the LED's, there is additional tuning that we will look into about specific feature lites, and any other effects.
- The LED design has 3 LED's cluster under every insert, and circuit such that if ANY of those 3 LED's goes out the remaining LED's get brighter to compensate. Note that these are 50,000 hour LED's -AND- we are driving them at lower voltage, so we feel that the LED's are basically addressed sufficiently, possibly some additional tweaks, etc.
- The driver 'board-lets' (1/3's) are thru hole transisters and pre-drivers, but they are also 4x higher load transisters and so the liklihood of them getting shorted is much lower, but if they do, you can take out your soldering iron and have at it! -or- just have a 1/3 driver board (at about that cost) and replace it.
- The main Lamp board had no issues for the duration of the show on the two games, and if for any reason there were to be an issue in shipped games then it takes about 20 minutes to replace the board as well as we will have exchange pricing on them (even though they are not all that expensive), to further reduce any cost (of course this is after the warranty period).
- We have adjustable voltage for the main solenoids built into the power supply of the game, so the game can be jumpered to give more or less power to the solenoids - something you cannot do and helps with major voltage issues in your power source.
- We decided to offer black option with the LE's (after purchase for std's) as well as the gold as there is too much energy going into the gold choice (and yes - brite shiny gold is not an option, it will not hold up, it never has and there are no good options, otherwise we would have already done that, so let's put that one to bed - anyone for a small amount of money can color their trim to whatever they want).
SO, this gives us a list of feedback, and we appreciate everyone at the show who gave the feedback, it was the right time and the right place to get the games out there and be there to listen to everyone. Alot of props out to Chicago Gaming (Doug and Dave) for their hard work as well as incorporating the feedback to insure that this is the best game that it can be!
Quoted from PinballHog:
Sorry guys for the delay. I got deathly sick on the last day of the show so I'm just now getting around to post a video of the castle sequence. Here you go.
» YouTube video
Not to be a stickler, but anyone think that the sequence still has a little ways to go to match the original? the moving parts of the castle seem a bit stiff whereas in the original they are literally flailing.
Quoted from LTG:
How old are the parts in the original and how many times have they been shaken ? And how old are the parts in the new one and how many times have they been shaken ?
Believe me the old one has worn bases, axles, and springs.
LTG : )™
how many original MM's have been restored/rebuilt with new parts though? a fair point, but just saying.
Quoted from PinballHog:
That's all I have. My mem was low on my phone and ran out of space. Sorry.
You're the only one who has posted anything in this thread, so you have NOTHING to be sorry for.
I'm more disappointed in the rest of the people who talked it up about taking all this supposed video footage of the machine and not posting SHIT.
Anyway, overall I'm pretty confident I'll be getting a high quality product. but damn, part of this whole journey is the anticipation and getting to go through this process w/ all the kind folks here on pinside. It's just surprising after all that talk, there isn't much video.
This thread has been a blast, the highs and lows. We are well on our way to an MMr. We are now in Q2 baby. What an exciting time to see an amazing product. To see through the process of an amazing product from a mere idea in the minds of a few to a miracle knocking at our doorsteps. And then the next day I'll be playing MMr in my underpants. (and you too, pinside, don't lie)
Quoted from vid1900:
With setup and teardown, delivering games to the local freight depot picking up the games at the destination freight depot, then returning them to the depot, and finally picking them back up locally, you are looking at at least a week of downtime - probably more.
Yeah, maybe if there was only one copy of the game and one person working on a release of one machine ("one" helluva limited release)...
more realistically it would be downtime for that one or two games that went to the show. and i only say that b/c Rick is making it sound like there are more machines than that at this point in time.
Quoted from vid1900:
OK, so if you signed a contract that said "NO CANCELLATIONS" then why are you surprised when no cancellations are allowed?
I believe a real man keeps his word.
You agreed to no cancellations, so man up and buy your game when it comes in.
I get the sentiment and I appreciate all the knowledge you have offered to the community here, but concerning these kinds of matters, and considering the MANUFACTURER'S agreement, there is something called the uniform commercial code, which states, (and I'm paraphrasing here):
"this is the dumbest argument ever"
haven't checked in here in a while but personally i'd be pissed if there were no coin mech. i mean, sure, it's probably not necessary, but a pinball doesn't quite look like a pinball without one... whether you like it or not, it's part of the entire aethestic. plus, it's a REMAKE. it should resemble ALL substantial cosmetic aspects of the original machine...
i mean, in all honesty you don't even need to have a back box anymore since all you have is that small ass board in there, right....? may as well get rid of the back box too huh??
this would definitely change my perspective on future remakes... (if there are any)
Quoted from Pimp77:
Huh, you realize the coin mechs are only seen if you open the door? The coin insert/reject is still there. Looks identical from the outside.
Actually, I didn't realize that!
Well, I don't really have time to sift through all the bullshit these days, so thanks for letting me know.
But yes this does change my outlook on the coin mech issue. I guess I would just install one myself if I really wanted it. But I would still say that I would be disappointed if it only "looked" like I could install an actual coin mech. It should actually be installable as a functional mech.
PS Sometimes I like to put quarters through my machines, even though they are all on free play, b/c it does add that je ne sais quoi to the experience. I bet I'm not the only one who does that.
Quoted from PPS:
Even though we said the reason was the international/domestic ordering situation and we didn't want to add the complexity of sorting out specific coin mechs for various countries, which would likely create mfg issues and the decision was made. I really get annoyed when people turn this into something it's not and don't even read the previous posts as to why. Also, I expect a very very small % of these games will ever see a quarter. And if they do I have a very very discounted solution.
It's really disappointing that some people don't want to be informed and then startup again and again, and most often are not customers ...
Not really the best response to a lot of people who are perfectly calm about it (but still find issue with the change), but we obviously already see your point.
You can be emotionally disappointed man. It's your right. But this is a commercial product, so the customers, although the may not be "kings", they definitely are the driver of your profits.
This topic is closed.
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