It's always been such a contentious business. It doesn't surprise me in the least that Williams tried that. They were quite stupid in so many business ways. And it REALLY doesn't surprise me that it didn't work. Operators were always a fickle bunch, and there were plenty of other options for that same floor space over a pinball machine.

And then you had big distributors in the middle, almost always working both sides against one another.

--Donnie

I'd call it a wave of dropouts, but I wouldn't say the wave is necessarily very large.

In a different thread where folks were discussing why prices seemed to be tanking on a LOT of high dollar pins, one theory tossed out was all the money that MMR had "taken out of the system." Even if it's "only" the deposits, that means those folks are probably saving up or sitting on money for MMR that they can't spend right now.

There was a big fervor to get signed up on this one, so a lot of people probably did it on impulse. And since then, it affected not only MM prices, but also the prices of a lot of other games to the point that people are probably thinking "man, I should just bow out and do something different NOW rather than wait."

I don't think it's totally unexpected nor does it necessarily mean anything hugely bad for MMR.

--Donnie

Now, I'm not necessarily in the "they shouldn't do this remake" camp, but the above is insane. *Before* the MM announcement you could *easily* find $12k routed MM's with slightly worn playfields. And if you were savvy, you could find that same game for closer to $10k. Still more than the remake and still a LOT of money, sure, but nowhere near the "15-20 grand" you quoted. HEP restored games that looked and play better than a NIB one were around for less than $20k. Not much less, but less...

--Donnie

It's $8M that *most* of which would have been spent on pinball. I think it's reasonable to say a good chunk of that would have gone to NIB games, and a good chunk to high end used games that might have enabled the seller to buy a NIB game yada yada yada on down the line.

No, it's not all money out of Stern's pocket, but even if you said it was "only" one or two million from Stern's sales, that's HUGE for a company the size of Stern. Absolutely huge. And if PPS were able to do it for two or three years in a row, that could be fairly damaging given the state of the market now.

That's all metallik is trying to say. If you think $8M in pinball dollars won't affect Stern significantly, well, there's just no reason to continue the discussion. And like metallik, *I* am not saying Rick shouldn't be doing it. Just pointing out the repercussions. I think we're seeing them RIGHT NOW, not just to Stern but in resale prices of everything. Is that bad? Only if you're selling. For buyers, it's great. I'm not complaining, but it is worth NOTING. Nothing more. Unless it kills Stern, in which case I'm going to be one of the first to say that it sucked that a bunch of remakes killed our best chance at new and interesting titles...

--Donnie

Let's try another way. If you think this hobby is so big and grand and growing so fast that sucking $8M out of the overall market, one in which Stern usually sells some relatively high percentage (even if YOU wouldn't have been a buyer), is NO BIG DEAL, well, we just disagree.

I think it's a big deal, and I think we are living the effect already and will continue to. Prices on used games are going down. Prices on NIB games that have been sitting there appreciating are going back down. And while prices for new Stern's aren't going to go down soon, the demand for them WILL since there isn't as much money out there to be spent on them.

Will that demand go down enough to hurt Stern badly? Only time will tell. I'm guessing they are doing well enough that they can absorb this *okay*. But if another remake or two happen in the next two years? I'm not so sure.

And I'm *still* not saying that companies shouldn't do remakes because of that. I AM NOT SAYING THAT. Because those of you who say "they should make better games and this won't matter" are DEAD RIGHT. But the fact is this...*no* company has proven they can make a better game than MM so far, and it seems like maybe none will. And maybe not the top few remake possibilities.

So the *shame* of it will be if these remakes come out in line and do well enough at being a clone that they do continue to suck maybe $25M out of the hobby over 3-4 years. If that's enough to kill Stern (and it could be!), then that's a shame. You might say "but they didn't make good enough games!" But the reality is they do make some DAMNED FINE games even if they haven't beaten MM yet. The proof is in the demand and prices we've seen for LE's and such. But once those three remakes kill Stern, well, we're no longer going to get those.

And then what? I really hope you don't think our hobby can grow and survive by continuing to remake games further down the list of "top whatever" games, because I don't think that's the case. I think we need variety to continue to grow it. There was a time I was collecting pinball machines and I was very sad to think that my collection was "done." Now that Stern has proven that every few titles there's going to be a nugget that I want to own, I'm happy and revitalized and interested in the hobby again. I had mostly checked out from the hobby, but I'm glad to say I'm back.

So again, it's not wrong for Rick to do this. But it will be a shame if the result is the death of ANY of our current manufacturers, because the remake line is only so long.

--Donnie

Award this poster one Internet.

--Donnie

Let's not start this "debate" here. I'm not saying MM is every players favorite game. But on average, it is considered by *most* as the best overall game ever done. The ratings here (with the newness of the STLE notwithstanding) along with conventional wisdom agree. Will someone? Maybe, but there's been a lot of shots fired. Maybe STLE really is it. Either way, it's a great game.

Sorry, i disagree with the entire zero-sum premise. But lets talk hypothetically that your overly simplistic theory is accurate:
If Stern can't make a game thats better and or more poplar than a 15-yr old retread then they don't DESERVE to be pettrified of JJP becoming really successful and building 3 or4 titles a year???? I think its the best thing for pinball since WMS folded (lol- even though I don't like WoZ).
You've got it backwards. 180-degrees out of phase on this.

It's all hypothetical. First Rick has to prove he can pull this off with reasonable quality *and* reasonable enough profit margin to make doing more worthwhile. He's got a good start, certainly. Time will tell, though. I really hope he does it, even if it devalues my original. I don't plan to sell it, so it doesn't much affect me as long as it doesn't affect Stern, anyway. I think the jury is still out on the other manufacturers, but so far JJP has yet to hit on a theme I'd even *consider*, but that's just a taste thing I guess.

And my theory of what could happen if there are a few successful remakes is just a theory, too. Maybe it will make Stern up their game somehow. That would truly be awesome, but I guess I remain skeptical. Would love to be proven wrong on that, and on JJP making a title that I will want (along with great gameplay to match!). It's just really hard to see a remake of a game that 4k titles already exist as such an exciting thing. But I guess if I was on the outside looking in I'd feel a lot differently.

--Donnie

Depending on the volume he intends to make, it could end up a lot cheaper to embed it. Could get rid of a lot of parts count from connectors to the SD card. Definitely makes it a little more expensive to replace that driver board should something go wrong, though, so there would be advantages to keeping it that way, certainly.

--Donnie

Nearly everything in this world of electronics is built of building blocks like this and almost always things get engineered down. It's all a matter of how much you can save over the long haul with your up front investment. I'm sure if we were only thinking one or two thousand of these boards is all that would ever be made, sure, you'd probably be right that it isn't worth it. But if Rick thinks his longer term business plans are solid enough to warrant thinking in the five figure range for boards, things might be a lot different in terms of if it is worth it or not.

I really don't know what the numbers are, but I do think there's a volume at which it would make serious economic sense to re-engineer it. What that volume is depends on a lot of factors that only Rick knows. I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if that number is low enough that it fits in his long term plans to do it. It also wouldn't surprise me for it to stay like it is. Time will tell...and it could change over time, too. There's no reason why he couldn't keep it like it is for these machines and then use profits to re-engineer to help profitability of later machines, too. As long as the boards are plug compatible (and no reason they couldn't be), people won't care much.

--Donnie

And I've got a feeling that with this particular game the sound improvement will be pretty significant. I love the sounds themselves in the game, but they have always sounded pretty low quality. I'd bet most, or all, of that is the compression and not the original sampling. Will be interesting to find out how much it really does improve it, but it could be really good...

I don't know how many games Rick has uncompressed audio for, but if it's "a lot" of them, well, it's stuff like this that could make a complete CPU/Audio upgrade worthwhile for a lot of home users. Add much higher quality sound to colorization and direct LCD support and networking and long high score names and a big pile of other small enhancements and you've really got something. That's a LOT higher potential for sales, especially as more and more repair components for the existing boards disappear, than remaking titles further down the line.

--Donnie

You know what would be even cooler? A reality TV show detailing everything about building MMr from start to finish!!! You could actually name the show "Medieval Madness: The Pinball." And put it on A&E. And make little Rick bobble-heads. Or pinball bobbleheads. And sell them at truck stops. And Rick could make embarrassing political statements to get news attention for it all.

Or he could not slow down the works and get shit done.

--Donnie

This place cracks me up.

I want improvements, but don't *change* anything!
I don't want improvements, but can you make this one little change that bugs me?
I want everything improved that can be...oh wait, I'm not even on the list.
You want what? That's stupid because I want this.
Where are the up to the minute updates on progress? I'm not on the list, but the poor suckers that are on the list deserve that, you know.
Hey, who turned that LED bulb on in here? I'm dying of light saturation now!

I love this bar.

--Donnie

Well I gotta say...this is ground I didn't cover. Just when I think I got this place figured out, someone finds a way to surprise me. Well done!

And yes, I see this as even more reason to love this bar.

--Donnie

Dear Rick: Please have an MMR at every pinball and gameroom expo/show/tournament/party everywhere.

Signed,

Everyone

I laughed out loud.

--Donnie