(Topic ID: 67443)

MMR PPS and Overall Update - Official PPS (Oct 21, 2013)


By PPS

6 years ago



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#4551 5 years ago

Read the past 60 pages....

#4552 5 years ago
Quoted from JuicyPinballer:

Long time reader, first time poster...
I put a deposit down when the announcement was made with JJP. Based on what I read here, I thought there would be a courtesy email and grace period from each distributor before deposits were locked in. Guess I was wrong. Sure, I had time to cancel but I really truly thought we would be given at least an email heads up from the distributor before deposits weren't refundable. Now Jack / PinballSales won't even respond to my emails.
What gives?

I hear there are quite a number of JJP MMr customers that have requested a refund, but have been denied. Jack has said you could sell your pre-order (yourself) and get your deposit back - but then there's that overhanging question of warranty and how exactly that would work as we were told that's not a possibility ... I'd like this addressed if possible.

#4553 5 years ago

I have never had any trouble getting ahold of Jack directly. Just ask him.

#4554 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Sorry but as someone with a deposit in I tend to disagree. Its on me to ask the guy I gave my money to if I have more time. Williams approval came and went and then 2nd quarter ended. Every day you sit thinking maybe tomorrow they will cut off the date is pure foolishness.

But to be fair at the same time if you send any kind of cut off notice it has to give the person x amount of days. So yeah that distro is being a dick. Oddly enough it sounds like the same two I don't think much of are the same ones doing just that. Not shocked.

Disagree with the first part, agree with the second. Was it really expected that pre-order customers should contact their distributor every few days to see if the deposit was becoming nonrefundable? No. Especially when the original "lock-in" criterion of WMS signing off on MMr came and went, and Rick/PPS stated here AFTER that time that pre-orders were still not final yet. From everything presented here and elsewhere, Rick is the "official" spokesperson for PPS and (from all indications) the person who decides the deposit refund deadline for ALL MMr pre-orders.

Your 2nd paragraph is reasonable, and is what most/all people expected (and were even told at some point): that pre-orders would be given notice and have x amount of days (or until y date) to get a full refund or finalize their order and pay the balance. Getting an email from a distributor many months after sending in a deposit, stating that the deposit is now non-refundable (with no warning or chance to cancel) is NOT what Rick had said (or implied) would happen.

Again, I hope Rick is in touch with his official distributors to clear up this mess and get the right thing done. Really, if people who wanted to cancel their pre-orders lose their deposits like this, do you think ANY of them will do business again with PPS or their particular distributor? That is bad business.

#4555 5 years ago

So after the 10th will we know how many open spots there will be for MMRLE? or will the canceled order machines just evaporate and not be opened up to the public for purchase? I am sure there are some that were late to the game and would like to get in on the original 1000.

#4556 5 years ago
Quoted from Pugsley:

So after the 10th will we know how many open spots there will be for MMRLE? or will the canceled order machines just evaporate and not be opened up to the public for purchase? I am sure there are some that were late to the game and would like to get in on the original 1000.

Pretty sure that they will sell all 1000 LEs if possible. Anything else would not make sense! Good point; I expect to see the official distributors offering LEs if they have cancellations.

#4557 5 years ago
Quoted from Craig:

I have never had any trouble getting ahold of Jack directly. Just ask him.

I have to say Jack is on the ball...Holidays, Weekends and late nights...I am impressed with his response time.

#4558 5 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

I hear there are quite a number of JJP MMr customers that have requested a refund, but have been denied. Jack has said you could sell your pre-order (yourself) and get your deposit back - but then there's that overhanging question of warranty and how exactly that would work as we were told that's not a possibility ... I'd like this addressed if possible.

Yeah, but the guy that said you can't pass the game/warranty also said deposits are refundable until July 10. So maybe JJP just does it their way, and not the way PPS intended. I think JJP should honor cancellations. Especially in light of the fact that MANY distributors are...and PPS posted info for months that seemed authoritative. One would expect "in the know" service and "special" handling from a good distributor. Not "we don't know or care what the manufacturer is doing".

#4559 5 years ago
Quoted from HOOKED:

I have to say Jack is on the ball...Holidays, Weekends and late nights...I am impressed with his response time.

This has always been my experience as well

#4560 5 years ago

Jack is awesome, it's all of the other fan boys that ruin it. If this was the 70's Mafia, Jack would have had hits ordered on everyone of them because they can never shut up.

#4561 5 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Jack is awesome, it's all of the other fan boys that ruin it. If this was the 70's Mafia, Jack would have had hits ordered on everyone of them because they can never shut up.

I've always liked Jack. I've been a vocal WOZ supporter from the get-go and want JJP to succeed. But denying cancellations of early MMr pre-orders in contravention of PPS policy and public statements over the months is uncool, unsporting, unenlightened and unacceptable. And bad for business most likely.

#4562 5 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

I hear there are quite a number of JJP MMr customers that have requested a refund, but have been denied. Jack has said you could sell your pre-order (yourself) and get your deposit back - but then there's that overhanging question of warranty and how exactly that would work as we were told that's not a possibility ... I'd like this addressed if possible.

I emailed Jack for a refund of my MMRLE deposit the first week of June and had my check in just under three weeks. There was no pressure from JJP at all.

#4563 5 years ago
Quoted from HOOKED:

I have to say Jack is on the ball...Holidays, Weekends and late nights...I am impressed with his response time.

yup

#4564 5 years ago

There are probably a bunch that settled for a Standard that wanted a LE.
I suspect those people would be contacted first of any available spots for an LE.

#4565 5 years ago

Just sent my check to Jack. Chose the black...
IT'S MADNESS I TELL YOU!!

#4566 5 years ago
Quoted from BradKreisler:

I emailed Jack for a refund of my MMRLE deposit the first week of June and had my check in just under three weeks. There was no pressure from JJP at all.

Same here, it was roughly 3 months ago I started asking for refund but Jack was too busy so I called Jen. I got it in under a week.

#4567 5 years ago

I think that most people that were willing to shell out 8k+ for an MMR is already down for an LE by now. For the standards to succeed, the price is going to have to be less or very few will sell IMO.

#4568 5 years ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

I think that most people that were willing to shell out 8k+ for an MMR is already down for an LE by now. For the standards to succeed, the price is going to have to be less or very few will sell IMO.

Probably true, but I wouldn't hold my breath on an MSRP below $8,000 for MMR standard edition. If PPS did that they'd be killing their business for future pins (as people would hold out for the cheaper "standard" edition instead of buying the first-run LE). Of course distributors would presumably discount MMR standard edition down from MSRP (which they did not have to do with MMR LE since it sold out so quickly), so buyers might save some money there.

#4569 5 years ago

Just got an email from Jack, check received, MMr is now officially paid in full! Can't wait for it to arrive.

#4570 5 years ago
Quoted from S37VEN:

JJP also said that the sooner you pay ..

Jack said "first to pay, first to pay?" - that sounds vaguely familiar.... Not sure where from....

Quoted from S37VEN:

I paid by wire today. ..

Seriously, I'm surprised anyone would make payment to JJP where there's no legal recourse (credit cards).

Good luck!

#4571 5 years ago
Quoted from BradKreisler:

I emailed Jack for a refund of my MMRLE deposit the first week of June and had my check in just under three weeks. There was no pressure from JJP at all.

This is part of the problem - Jack is saying he is sticking hard now that refunds are not given as of WMS approval, but refunds were being given up until the first week of June, as you state, which of course is wayyyy past WMS approval. Talked with Jen myself and confirmed that deposits are hard, and supposedly have been since WMS approval (which we know not to be true), and deposits are forfeited if you cancel.

Get this - JJP states that deposit money has already been sent to PPS as of WMS approval, and that is the main reason they will not allow refunds - PPS will not refund the deposits they sent in ..... the hole just gets deeper.

#4572 5 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

Jack is saying he is sticking hard now that refunds are not given as of WMS approval, but refunds were being given up until the first week of June, as you state, which of course is wayyyy past WMS approval. Talked with Jen myself and confirmed that deposits are hard, and supposedly have been since WMS approval (which we know not to be true), and deposits are forfeited if you cancel.

Oh dear god!!

11
#4573 5 years ago

All mmr deposits are hard now. Can we move onto the next topic ... I think the story of deposits will go into a chapter of the book ... including some of the non-standard reasons why a few of the people have cancelled ... i feel deep sympathy for any boutique company using deposits in anyway ... oy (as Jack would say) ... lol.

rick

#4574 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

All mmr deposits are hard now. Can we move onto the next topic ... I think the story of deposits will go into a chapter of the book ... including some of the non-standard reasons why a few of the people have cancelled ... i feel deep sympathy for any boutique company using deposits in anyway ... oy (as Jack would say) ... lol.
rick

Rick, I think most people complaining about the deposit are doing so due to originally statement that the deposits were "locked in upon Williams approval" but then in a post, after Williams approval, you stated "The deposit will become refundable when there is sufficient exposure of the game and other things (like trim option). we will also be giving notice, so this should all be good news as we moving out the date to production". From all these post it appears people were not given notice nor were they advised to check with their Dist. to see what their policy is/was.

I think it's great that the likes of you and Jack come on here and post as it's great to get insight as to what is going on and all but communication is key!

Best of luck with MMr and any future products!

#4575 5 years ago

Who out there would like the Black Trim to be run first?

#4576 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Who out there would like the Black Trim to be run first?

It is alphabetically first…..

#4577 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Who out there would like the Black Trim to be run first?

Count me in...

27
#4578 5 years ago

I'm just saying, not pointing fingers or trying to make light of people's possible bad situations because shit happens, but when you put one thousand dollars down on something as a good faith indication of your interest you should be pretty damn serious about it. And it was a frenzy and people were excited, I get that. Beer goggle kind of moment. But it's not like waking up the next morning next to someone and regretting it, you had months to decide you didn't really want to get in bed with them. If the passion cooled and you thought better of it you could have gotten your money back in plenty of time.

Meanwhile Rick has pulled this off smooth as a baby's backside. Every report is that it looks great. The details are being taken care of (triple redundant LEDs?) and then the icing on the cake: Not being put together by some team of inexperienced dudes in a warehouse somewhere, but the pros at Stern. Games are gonna be delivered earlier than expected on the whole.

Really, WTF does anyone have to bitch about? If you didn't want it then you shouldn't have put down all that cash. And if you thought better of it then you had so much time to do so. We should be positive about how well this is going, get some perspective here. I have one word for you: Wayne.

#4579 5 years ago

I went black and ordered the glass. Game is paid for and awaiting arrival.

#4580 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I'm just saying, not pointing fingers or trying to make light of people's possible bad situations because shit happens, but when you put one thousand dollars down on something as a good faith indication of your interest you should be pretty damn serious about it. And it was a frenzy and people were excited, I get that. Beer goggle kind of moment. But it's not like waking up the next morning next to someone and regretting it, you had months to decide you didn't really want to get in bed with them. If the passion cooled and you thought better of it you could have gotten your money back in plenty of time.
Meanwhile Rick has pulled this off smooth as a baby's backside. Every report is that it looks great. The details are being taken care of (triple redundant LEDs?) and then the icing on the cake: Not being put together by some team of inexperienced dudes in a warehouse somewhere, but the pros at Stern. Games are gonna be delivered earlier than expected on the whole.
Really, WTF does anyone have to bitch about? If you didn't want it then you shouldn't have put down all that cash. And if you thought better of it then you had so much time to do so. We should be positive about how well this is going, get some perspective here. I have one word for you: Wayne.

I don't disagree with any of this. But given that the LEs were limited and deposits were refundable, there was no reason not to put down a deposit if you were interested in (but not committed to) purchasing a MMr. The problem is that people believed that they would get proper notice before deposits became final/nonrefundable and have a final chance to cancel, a very reasonable expectation that was basically expressed here and elsewhere by Rick. So to have a distributor declare a deposit nonrefundable before the 'official' cutoff date of July 10 that was announced recently is not right. Seriously, why cancel before you have to, with the full expectation that you'd be given notice of when you'd have to cancel or finalize your order?

#4581 5 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

I don't disagree with any of this. But given that the LEs were limited and deposits were refundable, there was no reason not to put down a deposit if you were interested in (but not committed to) purchasing a MMr. The problem is that people believed that they would get proper notice before deposits became final/nonrefundable and have a final chance to cancel, a very reasonable expectation that was basically expressed here and elsewhere by Rick. So to have a distributor declare a deposit nonrefundable before the 'official' cutoff date of July 10 that was announced recently is not right. Seriously, why cancel before you have to, with the full expectation that you'd be given notice of when you'd have to cancel or finalize your order?

Well, you could put your head up a butchers ass too, but wouldn't you rather just take the cows word for it?

That's the only thing that makes any sense.

#4582 5 years ago

Holy crap boys! This refund deposit crap is getting old!!

-9
#4583 5 years ago

A question came up about coin mechs (not the ability to accept them), but I've not really addressed this as it is intermingled with the mfg. In any event, the MMR will not ship with any coin mechs - really for a few reasons and not necessarily in order of importance, etc a) many games are HUO, b) several different mechs depending on geography, c) mfg options kept to a bare minimum, d) depending on where you are there may be need for fancy multi-currency comparator or other variations (tokens, etc). The games are std 2-slot wms style doors that can accept 2 coin mechs as well as DBA. Sorry, but this was not something I had even thought to ask Chicago Gaming until recently, but it is what it is. There was a discussion about using a 1-slot vs 2-slot door, but we are using 2-slot door ...

rick@planetarypinball.com

#4584 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

A question came up about coin mechs (not the ability to accept them), but I've not really addressed this as it is intermingled with the mfg. In any event, the MMR will not ship with any coin mechs - really for a few reasons and not necessarily in order of importance, etc a) many games are HUO, b) several different mechs depending on geography, c) mfg options kept to a bare minimum, d) depending on where you are there may be need for fancy multi-currency comparator or other variations (tokens, etc). The games are std 2-slot wms style doors that can accept 2 coin mechs as well as DBA. Sorry, but this was not something I had even thought to ask Chicago Gaming until recently, but it is what it is. There was a discussion about using a 1-slot vs 2-slot door, but we are using 2-slot door ...
rick@planetarypinball.com

Rick, what colour are the reject buttons and what denomination inserts will be inside?

#4585 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

A question came up about coin mechs (not the ability to accept them), but I've not really addressed this as it is intermingled with the mfg. In any event, the MMR will not ship with any coin mechs - really for a few reasons and not necessarily in order of importance, etc a) many games are HUO, b) several different mechs depending on geography, c) mfg options kept to a bare minimum, d) depending on where you are there may be need for fancy multi-currency comparator or other variations (tokens, etc). The games are std 2-slot wms style doors that can accept 2 coin mechs as well as DBA. Sorry, but this was not something I had even thought to ask Chicago Gaming until recently, but it is what it is. There was a discussion about using a 1-slot vs 2-slot door, but we are using 2-slot door ...
rick@planetarypinball.com

Great, you tell us this hugely disappointing information right after deposits become non refundable. Now there will be 10 more pages of people complaining about this! Lol!

#4586 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

In any event, the MMR will not ship with any coin mechs

No biggie. Anybody that is going to operate them will likely have their own mechs or favorites to use. Same with DBA.

Often when you buy a new coin door from any of the parts suppliers, they come without mechs. I just checked Pinball Life, Stern and Williams doors, no mechs. Same with Marco.

LTG : )

#4587 5 years ago

The door will be the same as what is available from parts suppliers today for 2-slot doors, so without checking with Chicago that is my quick answer on that ...

#4588 5 years ago
Quoted from Iceman5000:

Now there will be 10 more pages

I am attempting to get more Karma points as I suspect I must get some extra for having a really really long thread ... possibly will have enough points to get an mmr ... whatever I can do to incite controversy ...

#4589 5 years ago

Is anyone nuts enough to put it on location?

#4590 5 years ago
Quoted from Fuse:

Is anyone nuts enough to put it on location?

I'll be playing one on Location once LTG gets his.

#4591 5 years ago
Quoted from Fuse:

Is anyone nuts enough to put it on location?

Me !

LTG : )
Disclaimer : I always try to do the best I can for my customers.

14
#4592 5 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

I don't disagree with any of this. But given that the LEs were limited and deposits were refundable, there was no reason not to put down a deposit if you were interested in (but not committed to) purchasing a MMr.

Okay, but I have a rebuttal for you: one thousand dollar deposit. Look, I get people flaking on my translite pre-orders all the time, I expect a certain % now and factor it into my orders. It happens and it's not a problem. But I only get a PM from someone saying "please put me on your list".

If you put down a $1000 deposit on something that says to me at least "I'm serious about this shit."

And you had a ton of time to get it back, long before it would have been any kind of issue. Now the piper is calling and you're getting this "oh, wait, you thought me putting down a thousand dollars meant I was serious?" thing and it just strikes me as ridiculous. It's not a good way to do business, your word ought to be good enough, but backing it with that much cash should surely seal the deal.

#4593 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

And you had a ton of time to get it back, long before it would have been any kind of issue. Now the piper is calling and you're getting this "oh, wait, you thought me putting down a thousand dollars meant I was serious?" thing and it just strikes me as ridiculous.

This. I've seen way too much preorder flaking on here. Maybe ditch the whole preorder model or having non-refundable deposits be the norm. With non-refundable, at least some money can be made for wasting someone else's time.

#4594 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I get people flaking on my translite pre-orders all the time,

th-413.jpeg

#4595 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

If you put down a $1000 deposit on something that says to me at least "I'm serious about this shit."

Aurich ... we haven't had that many cancels with this 'hard deposit' thing, but I do agree with you as it is frustrating as we carry the overhead on the accounting, etc and the last day cancel to me is a bit strange, as if people are either not able to make the decision or playing multiple resellers (for some reason), or something ... we were using deposits to help us plan the build, and I worry more for others that have refundable deposits ... as with mmr being alot more of a known quantity, the other games out there are not. So deposits will have little to do with how many games to plan, which can be the demise of any company. We are totally fine as we've not even tapped into a 2nd tier of large game resellers yet, and don't need to. But the smaller quantity suppliers of an unknown game ... I think there needs to be a better way, but really not sure what it is, and unfortunately it may result in some of these new games never being able to materialize and my worse fear is that the finances to fund a game will be difficult without locking in the customers ... so it's a catch-22 ... but this is probably left for another thread ...

rick

#4596 5 years ago

Yeah, I don't fully understand how people can take almost a year to think after putting $1k down.... Ummm either you know you want it or gtfo. It is the original game as a remake, wtf do you want to wait for? seems weird....

#4597 5 years ago

And of course if the reply is not in <30 seconds or the check isn't sent within a heartbeat then they get angry (wait ... must remember, retail, customer is king ... ) ... never mind, the overhead and cost is worth the stories I will tell someday ...

#4598 5 years ago

Hey Rick...Any idea how you guys and stern will decide which trim batch goes first down the line? Sorry if you already answered.

10
#4599 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

In any event, the MMR will not ship with any coin mechs

I don't care about your excuses but that is bullshit and you are cutting corners by being cheap. 8K and I can't even put a coin in my machine? Are you fucking serious?

#4600 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Aurich ... we haven't had that many cancels with this 'hard deposit' thing, but I do agree with you as it is frustrating as we carry the overhead on the accounting, etc

No doubt! That's really what I had in the back of my mind. When I do my translite stuff I'm just writing checks for a few thousand dollars, it's nothing that requires crazy amounts of accounting and craziness. And if I'm left holding the bag on a few unsold I'll be okay. You're managing a lot more money than that, with much larger quantities, a lot more vendors, etc. I would think it would be nice to count on pre-orders with deposits as reliable indicators.

Now I'm sure you'll be 100% fine. But as you point out for games that don't have that MM caché it's a lot trickier if the norm becomes "my deposit doesn't actually mean anything". We've already seen the people bailing on Predator at the end. There were maybe more questions left open on that one, again I'm not trying to pin anyone personally for their decision, but I do think your deposit should mean something that a game builder can count on.

We have these threads about CL deals gone bad, and all these pitchforks come out with "my word is my bond!" Or stories of "if you put a deposit down and walk away the seller should keep it, serves you right" etc. Somehow when the transaction is seen as more commercial and less personal those ethics seem to fade away subtly.

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