BTW. Much success on this project Rick. I hope this leads to a CC remake as well.

chris

JJP pre-sold 1000+ WOZ's and sucked all that money up, yet Stern's sales have been up year over year. So, we've already crossed this bridge.

LOL at the insecure speculators and real estate joes of pinball. All mad at a classic remake. MMR is the best thing happening to pinball in years. It will bring more fans into the hobby and drop those ridiculous prices down a bit. stern and jjp will do fine and cater to their brand loyalist as usual. PPS is oppening a new market for those looking for a top 10 classic at a legit price and new at that. I look foward to the MMR parties.

I concur. Stealing money lol, sure...if that was the case the current market values wouldn't be climbing so freaking high. There is so many options and makers now, which means? way more demand All good!

Of course it does. X pins sold, they got Y of X. Lets say there were the only company in town, and sold 10,000 games, they had 100% market share. The next year, 11000 pins get sold (their 10k but PPS 1k), so they sold 10000 of 11000, and accordingly they now have only 90% of the market. That means they lost market share.

Whether they made less money is a different issue. Also the market share by dollars will be slightly different, but they still lost market share.

For my situation, Vid is dead on. There is zero chance (though stle came close) of me buying a stern but I preordered MMre within the first 10minutes.

you aren't taking into account the growth of the market and new people in it. I for one never was planning on buying a NIB stern, jjp, nothing. When MMR was announced I jumped on it. So your calculation is very big generalization and inaccurate. You are generalizing the pinball market, and I bet for 2014 you will see a giant increase in pin sales from 2012 and 2013...sooo how are you taking the variable of more machines for sale, more manufactures, etc? There are more machines available so the market is bigger, the ratio of their share may stay the same but the technical % value will change as the market grew.

oh I don't know. my dollars will go towards the coolest pin. this iteration, it was MMRLE. maybe Stern will show it can complete code in a timely fashion and their next game will appeal to me more. maybe The Hobbit will blow me away. can't wait to find out. this consumer welcomes another player in the marketplace.

Why are you so sure there will be a giant increase in pin sales in 2014? Wjat evidence do you have to support this claim? Legit questions here... from my observations, the market is growing, but slowly now. Not enough for huge gains.

Nope, you are not thinking it all the way through:

1. Let's say I'm done buying pins. I'm not looking to buy any more. I have one title I loved when I was in college and that's enough for me (Twilight Zone). I have not played any new games since the 90s, since there are none on route around me.

2. Now I hear that I can own a classic, Medieval Madness, brand new. I liked the game in college, but it was too much money to ever buy used. I like the idea of brand new, and so does my wife, as the TZ needs service often.

3. I buy a MMr as it's my only chance to own a classic Williams pinball brand new.

4. Stern did not lose a sale, as I've never even considered buying a Stern.

So from when, like 2000, 2002? Stern was the only one. Say they release 3 games a year and maybe sell 4k each. Now we finally have JJP shipping games in 2013. There are a handful of new manufactures shipping titles in 2014, PPS, SkitB, Proc p3, Ben heck, maybe jpop and spookie (is his the same with ben heck?). Also with the pinball rejuvenation of sorts, I bet sterns pinball sales have increased, especially with good games now. So in 2014 comparing stern sales alone, I bet they see a big spike from 1-2 years ago. When you add in all the other companies, the market is now almost twice as big. Just look how many more distributors are speaking up to sell the new titles. I don't think pin sales have been this strong for a while, yes they are not as big as the mid 90's but, from 2000? I bet its huge. With competition we are getting MUCH better quality of game/gameplay and more to choose from. Now there will be more buyers, with more games to choose from. The digital versions, vpin, futurepin, zen and the pin arcade have sparked some new pinheads; more than we think, I think. As MM flyer says, its the renaissance of pinball again

Everything you wrote below is on the SUPPLY side of things. What about DEMAND? What signs do you see that demand growth is continuing, and at what rate?

We have unsold WOZ games in distributor inventory, we have unsold STLE games in inventory, we have new ST Premium games hitting inventory, we have unsold Metallica pro and even LE games in inventory. We also have a lot of used/HUO titles... Avengers, Xmen, etc. Who will buy all these, plus 1000 MMr, plus 1000+ Mustangs, plus 1000 WOZ 75ths, plus the botique games, plus ACDC Luci, all in the next 6 months?

you're a WOZ / Stern distributor? ah, now your posts make sense.

Couldn't agree more on this. It's not as cut and dried as people suggest. It's not like the world has an annual pin budget of X dollars. People have magic ways of finding money for things they REALLY want.

I'm not in the market for a new car for example. Nope, not in my budget. Not gonna happen.
Well...along comes a fine example of my high school car that I wished I never let go. And it's for sale. Someway, somehow I make it happen.

Sorry, the thread needed a car analogy....

Granted, the idea of pulling away market share from Stern is valid to an extent. There are people that always seem to have cash to buy a new machine when it comes out. Well that was fine when you knew that there would only be 2 new Sterns a year. Suddenly there are a bunch of others out there. My 2 pin budget won't handle 4 or 5 new pins. So yeah, market share lost since i have to pick and choose.

That's all my opinion. I'm not in that position. I'm happy and lucky to have what I do.

Don't buy so many of the high priced pins and price will go down to point more people will buy what you have in stock. I think it is more reaching a price brink with how high Stern LE and regular models of JJP are wanting to sell their pins for. If customers don't buy then distributors eventually wont buy and manufacturers then know they can't go past that point. IMO pricing has gotten out of hand and that is the probable reason for your not selling what you have in stock as quickly.

You can not prevent new companies from entering the pinball manufacturing arena nor can you prevent pinheads from buying from them regardless of the argument. Prices on NIB pins should come down IMO if new competition helps facilitate that then I am all for it.

You're on drugs, now your posts make sense

Hell, I wish I were a disty... better pricing, can play new titles for free when setting up for customers LOL

One again (please read) - I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm simply stating possible reprucussions. Read Donnie's post at the end of the last page.. if my explanation doesn't work, maybe you'll understand his, but this isn't rocket science. I'm all for lower prices.. so far no manufacturer has had to lower prices significantly yet. Not sure if JJP has much room to drop right now with New Platform Syndrome still in full effect (expensive sickness to have!) Stern probably has some room to drop, but who knows if they're still paying back debt and investors.

I remember the "good ol days" of cheap closeout WMS games back in the late 90s, which was fun for a while, but we all know how THAT ended

Prices should come down...but people need to stop buying first! So many people complain on one hand how high the prices are and how poor Stern's quality is...but yet the machines still sell!

Seriously though...this is an MMR thread,let's table the speculation and price-pissing and leave the floor open for the business at hand!

I can't wait for pics and video, hopefully this week!

Let's try another way. If you think this hobby is so big and grand and growing so fast that sucking $8M out of the overall market, one in which Stern usually sells some relatively high percentage (even if YOU wouldn't have been a buyer), is NO BIG DEAL, well, we just disagree.

I think it's a big deal, and I think we are living the effect already and will continue to. Prices on used games are going down. Prices on NIB games that have been sitting there appreciating are going back down. And while prices for new Stern's aren't going to go down soon, the demand for them WILL since there isn't as much money out there to be spent on them.

Will that demand go down enough to hurt Stern badly? Only time will tell. I'm guessing they are doing well enough that they can absorb this *okay*. But if another remake or two happen in the next two years? I'm not so sure.

And I'm *still* not saying that companies shouldn't do remakes because of that. I AM NOT SAYING THAT. Because those of you who say "they should make better games and this won't matter" are DEAD RIGHT. But the fact is this...*no* company has proven they can make a better game than MM so far, and it seems like maybe none will. And maybe not the top few remake possibilities.

So the *shame* of it will be if these remakes come out in line and do well enough at being a clone that they do continue to suck maybe $25M out of the hobby over 3-4 years. If that's enough to kill Stern (and it could be!), then that's a shame. You might say "but they didn't make good enough games!" But the reality is they do make some DAMNED FINE games even if they haven't beaten MM yet. The proof is in the demand and prices we've seen for LE's and such. But once those three remakes kill Stern, well, we're no longer going to get those.

And then what? I really hope you don't think our hobby can grow and survive by continuing to remake games further down the list of "top whatever" games, because I don't think that's the case. I think we need variety to continue to grow it. There was a time I was collecting pinball machines and I was very sad to think that my collection was "done." Now that Stern has proven that every few titles there's going to be a nugget that I want to own, I'm happy and revitalized and interested in the hobby again. I had mostly checked out from the hobby, but I'm glad to say I'm back.

So again, it's not wrong for Rick to do this. But it will be a shame if the result is the death of ANY of our current manufacturers, because the remake line is only so long.

--Donnie

You sir have never played Hollywood Heat.

Award this poster one Internet.

--Donnie

I put Tekee on "ignore" a long time ago. Its pretty obvious that he is butthurt over all his plans to keep making money ripping people off rebuilding old MM games with the same parts that he now labels as junk, re*****s or whatever. He has a couple of friends supporting him here.
Pay no attention. This project is going ahead despite him a few others making big profits rebuilding worn out games. I wonder if he is aware that if a person turns someone into the IRS for not claiming income they can get 10% of whatever the IRS gets out of the guy? I hope Tekee has been claiming all this income for the past 5+ years on all the games he has sold. If he keeps pissing people off with his juvenile crap someone will claim the bounty. I have no interest in it at all. But someone will eventually figure its worth their time since he thinks its so important to shit on a legitimate business venture that so many pinheads are so happy about.
And thanks again Rick for making this game available to the rest of us in this hobby. We are no longer at the mercy of people with "special interests" ripping us off.

OT: Yikes playernumber4 I know we all take jabs at each other and all, but we need watch out for one another and have each other's backs even if we don't always agree. Most of my friends think I'm crazy with my whole pinball obsession thing (they don't get it) I often think about my friends on Pinside and how they do "get it".. This group of Pinsiders is a rare/ very special group of people! I hate to see us tear each other apart from the inside.
Sorry for the OT guys

I concur Concretehardt. I'm just sick of his cheapshots at PPS. I can understand his financial loss and hurt feelings. He should be approaching it constructively and advertising his services. But instead he has opted to degrade PPS and their intended product and is only hurting his own business.
He started this flame war and should have been ready for any negative opinions he gets as an answer. I'm sure there a few people out there that paid five digit figures for the games he has been advertising for years. They might not be too happy now either.
It does not make much sense to try to start a war against a manufacturer when its obvious that you have a financial interest in trying to destroy their business.
I would have no problem deleting every thread I've said on the subject if he would just shut up and let this project go on without crapping on every thread that comes up about it.

Look... This thread has went off the rails. Since MM is somewhat rare and modding has only gotten bigger does anyone have any modding ideas?

image-340.jpg

I plan on making mods for it for this one. Interactive objects and lighting we shall see .
Once MM hits the pre pin buying spree stops dead in its tracks. I dont plan on pre-buying anything and plan on expanding on mods for all of the machines in my current line up adding only one stern a year once the code is well underway.

There is a great mod from a guy in Europe with an LED strobe effect for the catapult launch. I do not remember his name, but a couple years ago he said he was not going to make them anymore. Hopefully he will reconsider not that more games will be coming on the market. The "damsel" mod went out of stock some time ago too. It was a nice addition with a figure of the damsel in the window and LED lighting to light up her in the window.
Was it Peter from the Netherlands possibly who made the catapult mod?

I'm sure Pinball Refinery will come up with some awesome mods for MMR. Those guys rock, but hurt my wallet.

Yes; thank you Rick.
Who is Teekee…never heard of him?

Bring on the MMR mods!!

Hopefully, the pinball market is not a zero sum game… but rather more market participants will help grow the market due to variety, exposure, and rate of innovation. It's not much of a hobby if there's only a single source for new pinball tables.

Someone just posted they couldn't find a nib st pro. There are more people in the hobby than the 200 on pinside. Being sold out doesn't mean there aren't people buying. Having some inventory is okay. Also remember they ship most over seas anyway. I don't think anyone will have a hard time selling a good machine, look at tron. If stern updates Metallicas code and everyone loves it those sitting in distributors warehouses will fly out the door. Good games sell, people sell pros to go to le's etc. I have no fear in there being too many pins or companies. And if there are too many, the price should drop...isn't that what we want?

Anyway no reason to keep talking about it, we have our own opinions. I'm just ripped about this mmr. Cannot wait to see some gameplay or more pics. This should totally help more people get classic Williams games that may not have breaking solder or transistor failure from age that's what I'm excited about.

You make sense... as usual. this x100

Always fun to see positive guys like you instead of the doomsday preachers of pinside.

jjp is competing with stern, doom on pinball.

PPS is competing with stern, doom on pinball future...

Some of those guys should get in politics where they could manipulate the masses with fear tactics.

Coulda fooled me! You're not doing a very good job ignoring me... try harder please!

cheap shots at PPS??? Like what? I give my opinions like everyone else. You do the exact same thing I do here only your opinions and slams are directed at Stern. So what! That's your right. You have your reasons to be negative towards Stern and you have no problem making them known... look in the mirror!

Just because you can't handle a made up term like 'refake'? Because I don't think remaking 20 year old pins is a good idea for the future of pinball?

Man, you need to put yourself on ignore... sorry I made you cry.

** Could someone please relay this to him since he's obviously ignoring me **

I just googled MM mods I came up with this........http://www.pinwize.com/
I know nothing about them but they look sweet!

Awwwww snaps. pinwize has some good mods. Hope they can be adapted to the MMR

As long as MMR is build to original specs, the PinWize mods are fully interchangeable!

Btw... The Damsel mod is in development. Have a very nice idea for it Will be ready way before MMR comes out...

Sweet! Thanks Hensbrooker. Lets hope its nice and easy. Glad to hear you are already on the damsel mod figurine.

The growth of the market has nothing to do with market share. Market share is what PERCENTAGE of a market (whether units or revenue) a company has. As I had said, it is possible for Stern to have a smaller market share and be making more revenue, if the market is growing faster in revenue then they are losing share.

They have clearly lost share, for all practical purposes they had a 100% share of the market, and now they have less the 100%, as WOZ machines have been sold. Their loss of market share can not be debated, it is fact. They will continue to lose share as MMR, Predator, P^3 and others actually get sold, unless Stern increases production enough to compensate, but they will never be at 100% again, at least not for the foreseeable future.

You need to make a trip up when the prototype hits our showroom so you can get a headstart on the making of the mods.

Their market share has dropped as more units are in it, or soon to be, but I'm saying their sales are better, I'm assuming, but from the looks of it, they are. So their % is dropping of the market share, but their sales aren't.

F this market BS. Get back to MMR I saw pinwiz mods..and I'm excited to get my MMR and mod it up!!!

Hurry, paging member Rarehero!! Rick got what you asked for!!

Looks awesome, is there a backbox light panel that drops in there? If so is it also LEDs?

looks pretty cool!

Awesome to see!

Two things I notice is it looks like the dragon is missing and when the castle is defeated in the original the towers would shake the topple sideways for a few seconds then pop back up normal again. In the video I only saw the castle towers shake, they did not topple over and stay there for a few seconds then pop back up, they just shook, that's it. I don't know the game that well so maybe you have to defeat the castle a bunch of times to make that happen???