(Topic ID: 67443)
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Medieval Madness
Williams, 1997
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Saddle River, NJ
Quoted from pezpunk:you signed up?
i hope calling everyone stupid really helps with your own ego issues. also sorry i forgot about your weird plan to buy MMR and flip either it or your original MM, but that doesn't change the fact that your assertion that less competition is better for the hobby makes no sense.
We can agree to disagree 
Quoted from jayhawkai:Just ordered $1000 worth of Shamwows for some reason.
pre-order ?
Ottawa, ON
Quoted from retired_user_101:pre-order ?
No he put a $300 deposit down. The other $700 is due when Vince approves them.
Quoted from metallik:To the rest: as I said (do you guys read beyond the first sentence?) .. I do hope Rick is right, I am wrong, and that the market has expanded enough to accommodate everyone. We won't know for a while if it has. You can't say with a straight face, however, that his announcement hasn't had any effect on Stern or JJP's sales. You simply don't suck $8M+ out of a niche market and not have any impact on the current manufacturers, even if it's only one or two people. Hopefully it really is only a few.
Here's the thing though....this is a niche market that clearly can support 8k games, even though we cry and bitch about it and hate it lol....saying MMr is bad for Stern is like saying AC/DC is sucking sales away from Metallica. 1 title doesn't destroy the NIB market. If we go back in time a few years, we could have said "Oh no, this is a niche market! JJP making WOZ will KILL Stern!!!" Fast forward to today...Stern has 3 full time designers (Ritchie, Borg, Trudeau), Greg Freres in house for art, Gomez as VP, 6 programmers plus the rest of the factory staff. The market has allowed for more players. If/when it all falls apart, we can cry about it then....for now - this is a MMr update thread lol....back to updates, Rick!
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:No he put a $300 deposit down. The other $700 is due when Vince approves them.
LMAO
To me if Stern or JJP lose market share to PPS, they have two options; Lower the retail price or make a better game.
Stern and others have lost the 8mil that went to MMRLE, there is no denying that. They haven't lost it yet, but when it comes time to pay in full, I know I'll be getting my MMRLE and not another Stern...money doesn't grow on trees in Canada (just maple syrup).
But, like others have said, maybe this will be an eye opener for Stern. Maybe they will be forced to up their game, finish codes and give us all the games worth our money.
I think what Rick is doing is great and I fully support his endeavors. Completion is good. It only benefits us all in the end......
The assumption here is that the people that are buying an MMR would have used that money to buy a Stern or JJP. I think a number of the people are buying MMR because they want a classic game that they might not normally have been able to afford. I think it is a bit of a stretch to think that if MMR wasn't being made that they would have used that money on another NIB. If they like classic games then maybe they would have just used that money to buy other A or B list titles.
Quoted from hollywood:Stern and others have lost the 8mil that went to MMRLE, there is no denying that.
Sure there is.. MMR is the kind of thing that gets people to find money to spend on pinball they wouldn't spend. Plus, you have to include the entire used market in your "and others".. most money in this game is NOT NIB
Quoted from hollywood:Stern and others have lost the 8mil that went to MMRLE, there is no denying that.
That's no guarantee, maybe these folks were saving for a MM all along and now pulled the plug on a more reasonable option or perhaps many these folks might have not purchased any newer machines at all with the current selection available.
I don't see it as 8 million lost I see it as 8 million more invested into our hobby, just because it didn't go to Stern or JJP doesn't mean the cash was lost. It simply means we now have another company that will supply additional options for us to choose.
It doesn't mean that Jack or Gary would have had that cash anyway, they weren't getting my 8K.
Quoted from teekee:Exactly... why tie your money up for a long period of time just to instantly lose a grand? Once you pop the top and put your first plays on it you just burned a grand. Plus they aren't rare in the least so you'll see plenty changing hands once released. And unlike the originals there is little hope of getting your money back with these. That's just the hard facts.
Now that the originals have come down in price to more reasonable levels people will always prefer those... even if they have to pay a bit more. I hope you're not thinking you can play this thing for a year and get your initial investment back. Its probably a money loser with some risk to go along with it since we know nothing about it.
If you really want one why not do the smart thing and wait for an HUO? Save a grand, maybe more! Plus you'll be able to play it before you buy it and determine if this MM wannabe is truly the real deal. The false excitement many of you are feeling will go away quickly. You guys are fooled into thinking that you're actually getting a NIB MM... Well, you're not! Its not really a MM and will NEVER be a MM. There is only one MM and those were put into production by Williams. It may look like one on the surface and play like one but its not really a MM...
Its funny how easily so many of you will spend 8 grand you don't have. Jump on the bandwagon! Don't get left behind! Many of these same guys will whine about the flippers and the sellers being the problem when in reality its the out of control buyers that create the problems. Build it and they will definitely send money! Yes its always the flippers and sellers fault... LOL!
If you don't care about your 8 grand and just want the excitement of opening a NIB pin that will look and play like a MM but not actually be a MM then what the hell, go for it. I'm just here to open your eyes to these cold hard facts.
Way too much new stuff to be excited about and to spend your money on... yet, back to the future we go.
I'm Pappa Teekee... you might not like what I have to say but after you throw your tantrum and call me names you'll sit back and think about it for a while and understand its just 'tough love'... Pappa's always right and I just love you all!
Tiki, your reasoning applies to every NIB pinball machine, not just the NEW MM. There's one reason and one reason only to pull out: the decline in pinball prices. This $8k can buy more pinball machines than ever before...and its going to be able to buy even more next year probably. But I can't just warehouse all these less expensive machines (like you TeeKee....). I need to sell to buy...and yet, once my brand new MM shows up...I probably won't want to sell it. So who cares?
TEAC, you've had a nice run...but the gravy train has jumped the tracks. You'll still have a high end clientele for your truly special CQ games...but the flipping of over priced over hyped games to the general public is over. But I'm sure you'll keep trying.
Quoted from sensfreak:The assumption here is that the people that are buying an MMR would have used that money to buy a Stern or JJP. I think a number of the people are buying MMR because they want a classic game that they might not normally have been able to afford. I think it is a bit of a stretch to think that if MMR wasn't being made that they would have used that money on another NIB. If they like classic games then maybe they would have just used that money to buy other A or B list titles.
It's $8M that *most* of which would have been spent on pinball. I think it's reasonable to say a good chunk of that would have gone to NIB games, and a good chunk to high end used games that might have enabled the seller to buy a NIB game yada yada yada on down the line.
No, it's not all money out of Stern's pocket, but even if you said it was "only" one or two million from Stern's sales, that's HUGE for a company the size of Stern. Absolutely huge. And if PPS were able to do it for two or three years in a row, that could be fairly damaging given the state of the market now.
That's all metallik is trying to say. If you think $8M in pinball dollars won't affect Stern significantly, well, there's just no reason to continue the discussion. And like metallik, *I* am not saying Rick shouldn't be doing it. Just pointing out the repercussions. I think we're seeing them RIGHT NOW, not just to Stern but in resale prices of everything. Is that bad? Only if you're selling. For buyers, it's great. I'm not complaining, but it is worth NOTING. Nothing more. Unless it kills Stern, in which case I'm going to be one of the first to say that it sucked that a bunch of remakes killed our best chance at new and interesting titles...
--Donnie
Quoted from djb_rh:It's $8M that *most* of which would have been spent on pinball. I think it's reasonable to say a good chunk of that would have gone to NIB games, and a good chunk to high end used games that might have enabled the seller to buy a NIB game yada yada yada on down the line.
No, it's not all money out of Stern's pocket, but even if you said it was "only" one or two million from Stern's sales, that's HUGE for a company the size of Stern. Absolutely huge. And if PPS were able to do it for two or three years in a row, that could be fairly damaging given the state of the market now.
That's all metallik is trying to say. If you think $8M in pinball dollars won't affect Stern significantly, well, there's just no reason to continue the discussion. And like metallik, *I* am not saying Rick shouldn't be doing it. Just pointing out the repercussions. I think we're seeing them RIGHT NOW, not just to Stern but in resale prices of everything. Is that bad? Only if you're selling. For buyers, it's great. I'm not complaining, but it is worth NOTING. Nothing more. Unless it kills Stern, in which case I'm going to be one of the first to say that it sucked that a bunch of remakes killed our best chance at new and interesting titles...
--Donnie
Even if you are right, Stern has "Blackberried" themselves with a lack of innovation and failing to complete their prodducts in a timely manner. If you poop on your customers and the biggest innovation you bring to the market in years is charging more for less game... yeah you might be leaving the door wide open to competition.
Quoted from spfxted:I see what Rarehero did there...
.........................................................................
Just then? Didn't you see twat he did before? 
Quoted from metallik:I see one potential "bad thing" that is not your fault and shouldn't cause you to stop, but it still exists.
Older games can be great, but I like new games better than old ones. Star Trek LE and WOZECLE are amazing, and are just the beginning of new and exciting technology in pinball. I would not want the presence of 1000 "new" old games on the market to cause either Stern or JJP to fail, because then we would get fewer or no new games. $8M spent on MMRLEs is $8M not spent on new technology and innovation. A step backwards, so to speak. Obviously there is a demand for a few older titles, but I wouldn't want to see new machine sales suffer as a result. I feel the price of MM would have come down anyway as people (possibly me) sell theirs to buy new games.
Anyway, just a perspective.
Just what exactly is the "new and exciting" pinball technology on STLE?
Quoted from teekee:Yep, exactly... can't save everyone but some will come to their senses.
But you have "saved" someone? Anyone? Tiki is Jesus!
A Medieval Madness remake shouldn't suck any money out of the hobby.
First of all this hobby is growing. I hadn't played a pinball machine before, in my entire life, until last March when I bought a DE Simpsons and F14 Tomcat from someone on this forum. I had a knocker go off on my F14 and thought something malfunctioned. My friends? They thought scoring was based on the time the ball was in play, so they would rejoice when the ball would get stuck.
Everyone new to pinball is new to every machine. Pinball, unfortunately for companies making pinball machines, is somewhat timeless. Game developers just have to make minor improvements and additions to video games to stay relevant. Pinball machines are fighting against every machine made prior to them to really succeed. So if someone new to pinball comes along and has the chance to play Medieval Madness and becomes hooked, they learn about basic mode progression and that you get rewarded for playing better, then you may have another lifer. Going after the purist market is an ever shrinking pocket of money and space. I'm about out of room in my house. That's when I will stop buying machines, and I'm sure there are many others with the same thing in mind. Get someone else into pinball? That's an entire empty house that can be filled with machines.
Before the remake, nobody would just go out and put a MM on location. People who have had them on location for years already earning, maybe they will leave them, but nobody is buying a $10k routed MM to just share it with newcomers at a laundry mat. We are truly in a second renaissance of pinball, and this machine is a time tested favorite for newcomers and avid pinheads alike. I don't see anything detrimental about a company reintroducing them so the public that didn't have the means to acquire them 10 years ago once again gets a chance to.
Quoted from Rarehero:Thanks for the insult. *coughdouchebagcough* OK, now that that's over....
Why is it that no one has complained about what one pin-thing does to another pin-thing until now? When Gene made BBB, did anyone cry that this would affect Stern? When Wayne was attempting MMr, were people worried how this would affect Stern? When games get restored and sold at retail, is that taking money away from Stern? When JJP came on the scene, were there cries about JJP taking money from Stern? Is Jpop taking money from JJP & Stern!?!? When Heighway goes into production, is that taking money away from Stern, JJP, Jpop, and PPS!?!?!?!? If P3 goes into production, will that kill EVERYONE!?!?!?
It's just silly...no one EVER complained about one pin-thing THREATENING TO DESTROY another until now....the only thing it's destroyed is the price of MM originals.
Yes, this is a niche market...and this is just one game that's had lots of demand within the niche. It's not going to destroy Stern or JJP. Many in the NIB game can likely afford both....and there are plenty of Stern-haters who will buy a MMr and never would have bought a Stern anyway.Wrong. There were ~2500 FGY's made.
You forgot Skip B! They nearly destroyed Stern! PPS just might finish the job!
Will you stop taking shots at Teekee? He's by enlarge checked out of this thread, if you keep delivering the cheap shots he'll just come back.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:But you have "saved" someone? Anyone? Tiki is Jesus!
Quoted from sd_tom:Sure there is.. MMR is the kind of thing that gets people to find money to spend on pinball they wouldn't spend. Plus, you have to include the entire used market in your "and others".. most money in this game is NOT NIB
Quoted from DeathHimself:That's no guarantee, maybe these folks were saving for a MM all along and now pulled the plug on a more reasonable option or perhaps many these folks might have not purchased any newer machines at all with the current selection available.
I don't see it as 8 million lost I see it as 8 million more invested into our hobby, just because it didn't go to Stern or JJP doesn't mean the cash was lost. It simply means we now have another company that will supply additional options for us to choose.
It doesn't mean that Jack or Gary would have had that cash anyway, they weren't getting my 8K.
Maybe I misspoke? I know the money is not "lost" per se, but it is money Stern will not get, right? I agree that 8mil in our hobby, whomever it goes to is fantastic! I believe the hobby is growing drastically.
Personally, I wasn't saving for a MM all along, I was saving money to buy a game to be determined. It could have been a Stern, a Heighwey, Skit-B, JJP but it came down to getting the MM from Rick.
This venture didn't get me to spend money on pinball that I wouldn't normally spend. It gave me another game option to spend my money on.
The hobby is alive and well and lets keep the competition among suppliers!!!
Quoted from PPS:we won't freeze deposits until there is enough stuff out there to make them feel comfortable, if that goes into January to get us more out there, we can do that. I'm promised pictures, etc early next week or sooner. The pictures that we already posted show the game, but I will try to get some additional stuff. We are also scheduling Roger Sharpe to come and review things - Roger is and has been very supportive and so having never done the process before (as no wms remake has happened before), we will see what the process turns into - but we don't have any need to 'freeze' deposits until we are comfortable that our customers are comfortable.
rick
Rick,
Are the LE models still sold out, or can new customers order an LE?
We have friends interested in getting one, but they are not on pinside.
Well before MMR, I was just going to blow my 8k on booze and women, so in my case its good for the hobby.
Quoted from jalpert:Will you stop taking shots at Teekee? He's by enlarge checked out of this thread, if you keep delivering the cheap shots he'll just come back.
OT: I don't always agree with what TeeKee has to say on these boards but he is a good guy and I would be willing to bet an MMr that if you were to have a beer and play a few games of pinball with the guy you would find you have way more in common with him than you have differences.
So much going on in our little hobby right now.. These are exciting times my friends!
Now back to your regularly scheduled MMr chat....
Quoted from bigdaddy07:Well before MMR, I was just going to blow my 8k on booze and women, so in my case its good for the hobby.
Pinball Pro said they had some yesterday
Quoted from scott_freeman:Rick,
Are the LE models still sold out, or can new customers order an LE?
We have friends interested in getting one, but they are not on pinside.
you need to contact a distributor for that question. PPS is the supplier -- it's all sold out from their perspective, but distributors might have some that aren't spoken for, or could at least put your friends on a list for when others drop out.
You know as with most issues in life both camps are correct...the MMR buyers are right because the prices on that title was insane, so of course you want to jump on NIB for 8k, when used ones were selling for 12-15k, also it is Stern's own doing because they could have kept the door closed on these new companies by making innovative and quality machines out of the gate, then we would not be jumping on the remakes. The other camp is also right about this development hurting pinball by basically taking a big chunk of funds out off the table for future games. The outcome will be that Stern and JJP will end up downsizing but they will still stay in business, so in essence at least in the medium to the long turn the consumer will get better games because all three of these companies will have to compete for basically the same slice of the pie (Albeit the pie has grown since the mid 2000's).
Now honestly how many remakes are you willing to buy after MMR? 1 more..2 more? Then what? Yep you guessed it all eyes will be back on Stern and JJP again.
I don't take anything I read or anyone here seriously. You can't, especially with the signal to noise ratio in this place. Past a person or two on here that likes to get racial, I wouldn't mind meeting anyone. Even Teekee even though he annoys the hell out of me
Quoted from Concretehardt:OT: I don't always agree with what TeeKee has to say on these boards but he is a good guy and I would be willing to bet an MMr that if you were to have a beer and play a few games of pinball with the guy you would find you have way more in common with him than you have differences.
Quoted from scott_freeman:Rick,
Are the LE models still sold out, or can new customers order an LE?
We have friends interested in getting one, but they are not on pinside.
Yes, LE's are still available. Check here:
Also, on My Pinball this morning:
Medieval Madness, 2013: 8,000
We have some left, after miscounting our pre-orders we have a few left in stock. First come, first serve. $1,000 deposit to reserve. Email [email protected] or call 800-727-8363.
Michael Daddona, Phone: 203-877-8736
Milford, Connecticut 06460
Quoted from Concretehardt:OT: I don't always agree with what TeeKee has to say on these boards but he is a good guy and I would be willing to bet an MMr that if you were to have a beer and play a few games of pinball with the guy you would find you have way more in common with him than you have differences.
So much going on in our little hobby right now.. These are exciting times my friends!
Now back to your regularly scheduled MMr chat....
Thanks Sean… like 'they' say. It's only pinball. So we'll all have our disagreements here and there... no biggie!
In 100 years no one will know the difference anyway.
Sana'a
Who cares about any of this?
Why does Stern or JJP have to be brought up in every other post about MMr?
If you want a new version of MM, put your $1000 down now.
If you want to wait until you can play it first, wait.
If you don't want it, don't buy it.
LE's were sold out to distributors on the first day (as best we could calculate) and we tried not to have an oversell situation, it's hundreds and hundreds of emails and checks in the mail, wire transfers, bank runs, etccto get all the deposits, etc, and every distributor is handling that how they wish. I have no idea if any distributors 'held back' from selling them, that is certainly up to them. Some may trickle some out over time, but for all intents we have the deposits for the bulk of them, no distributor is handing them back that's for sure (they ask for more). There are some new distributors which I re-allocated from some who we refunde because the purchaser had all of his family, etc in line at the show and could not flip them, so I re-allocated them (a very small number) to a couple of new distributors as I could as a token of starting off those relationships. So, I'm sure there will be a conspiracy theory on this one as well ... lol
rick
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Just what exactly is the "new and exciting" pinball technology on STLE?
Same as WOZ - all inserts with RGB LEDs. Hell, the monochrome sweeps when you make mode shots alone are worth it. Watch some of the jackpot effects, nice white-> yellow-> red fade. For play, much easier to make the same shot indicate different goals. Interactive cab lights are pretty neat for first effort. Old-tech: return of flashers to backbox.
Quoted from PPS:LE's were sold out to distributors on the first day (as best we could calculate) and we tried not to have an oversell situation, it's hundreds and hundreds of emails and checks in the mail, wire transfers, bank runs, etccto get all the deposits, etc, and every distributor is handling that how they wish. I have no idea if any distributors 'held back' from selling them, that is certainly up to them. Some may trickle some out over time, but for all intents we have the deposits for the bulk of them, no distributor is handing them back that's for sure (they ask for more). There are some new distributors which I re-allocated from some who we refunde because the purchaser had all of his family, etc in line at the show and could not flip them, so I re-allocated them (a very small number) to a couple of new distributors as I could as a token of starting off those relationships. So, I'm sure there will be a conspiracy theory on this one as well ... lol
rick
that's remarkably transparent and forthcoming on your part, rick. i can't imagine most manufacturers being that candid about the process. i feel great about my purchase so far. signs are pointing towards you guys getting it right.
Quoted from sensfreak:The assumption here is that the people that are buying an MMR would have used that money to buy a Stern or JJP. I think a number of the people are buying MMR because they want a classic game that they might not normally have been able to afford. I think it is a bit of a stretch to think that if MMR wasn't being made that they would have used that money on another NIB. If they like classic games then maybe they would have just used that money to buy other A or B list titles.
I agree a lot with this. I will add this. I don't care who is making the machine. You have to build a title and theme I'm interested in if I'm going to spend my money on that machine. The last 2 stern titles (Mustang and ST) do nothing for me in terms of theme (personal taste), and the first 2 JJP machines also do nothing for me. So I'm not a buyer because no matter how good the game play is I just won't enjoy playing it.
As a result I decided to spend my money on an older machine that has been on my purchase list for 12 + years. Had Stern of JJP released a theme I was interested in I would have probably spent a lot more time weighing my options.
I'm in the crowd that thought I would never own a MM because of the prices that are being asked for originals. I now have the opportunity to own one that for all practical purposes will play, sound, and perform like the original at a price point that is "somewhat" reasonable. I say "somewhat" because like others I remember when machines could be purchased for a lot less. I'm also reasonable and see that those days aren't coming back anytime soon so I can either adapt or leave the hobby.
I'm also a hobbyist. I buy machines to play. I enjoy them for the time I have them. If I make some money when I sell thats great. If I don't that's OK because thats not why I do it.
I wish all the pin makers the best of luck. The big names and the small guys making something on a smaller scale.
Its all pinball so its all good.
chris
Quoted from metallik:Old-tech: return of flashers to backbox.
I wish all new machines had the flashers and GI based backbox lighting. Half of the fun with the machines is changing them over to LED in the backbox to add some color to the translites.
chris
Quoted from ChrisS:I wish all new machines had the flashers and GI based backbox lighting. Half of the fun with the machines is changing them over to LED in the backbox to add some color to the translites.
chris
Couldn't agree more. Interactive backbox lighting is great!!
Quoted from hollywood:Couldn't agree more. Interactive backbox lighting is great!!
Yes it is, and you can get it for any machine from the Pinball Refinery.
Quoted from ChrisS:I wish all new machines had the flashers and GI based backbox lighting. Half of the fun with the machines is changing them over to LED in the backbox to add some color to the translites.
chris
Why, were old translites black and white!?
Say no to colorbombing!!!
If two or three or four new companies are selling X number of pins, then the percentage of the market Stern has is less, and therefore is losing market share, purely by definition. However, if the market is growing, then there smaller share of the market can still be worth the same or more then it was before their share shrunk. Clearly the overall market has grown over the last few years, over time it will all work itself out. As I've said before, over time competition between manufactures is good for the buyer, whether better product or pricing.
I am in on MMr, and that is 8K I had NOT planned to spend this year on pinball, so it is not taking away from some other manufacturer or some other collector selling a game. I have only space for X games, therefore, when I do decide to change, I sell (always painful) to buy , so while that might require me to put more money in, it would not be 8K. Reading between the lines, you can see I'll be selling something to make room for the MMr. I have never bought NIB. First off I would never buy a game I have not played and experienced, and if once I play it, I decided I want it, I'll look to find one HUO, and save a little bit of money on it. I saw this as a unique opportunity, and the reason I decided I would go NIB.
I do believe that MMr will have a lower turnover rate then other recent new games.
Hey Rick,
You know, xmas is coming in a few days… but i just wanted to let you know, my xmas will really be here when that MMRLE shows up and I tear into that box, get it set up and start playing the heck out of it with a giant cheesy grin on my face.
Thanks again for making this possible for so many of us.
Very exciting times
cheers,
bb
A MMr sale does NOT mean that Stern lost any market share at all.
Just because someone buys a MMr does NOT mean they would have bought a Stern or any other brand pin, new or used.
For example: I have a client that ordered a MMr who was otherwise "done buying pins" (he had 2 and that was enough for him).
Quoted from Rarehero:Why, were old translites black and white!?
Say no to colorbombing!!!
Ha. yes to each their own. I understand it both ways.
Sometimes you feel like a nut. Sometimes you don't
chris
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