There hasn’t been any competition yet either. What have we got? WOZ and about 12 different vaporware titles? It doesn’t work until there is some real competition and that means these guys need to start cranking out some real live pins.

Maybe not NIB but the second hand market has finally cooled.

Yep, should have put in "NIB"

We don't really have WOZ yet, how many people are still waiting? Doesn't supply have to go up before prices go down? This time next year, we are supposed to have 1,000+ $8K games out there. It's going to be a fun and interesting year.

I'm glad you're a cartoonist because you don't quite get economics. We are still a very niche market. There is a limited amout of dollars chasing pinball machines right now. If Jack and/or Stern do not get enough of those dollars per month, they go tits-up. Not everyone is made out of money and can afford new games from multiple manufacturers like yourself, and while I support folk's decisions to buy whatever game they want, I do not want JJP or Stern to close their doors because too much money went to the competition. Not when the competition brings nothing new to the table.

In 1993 we had at least 4 manufacturers. In 2003 we had one, and the games mostly sucked until TSPP. I don't want to wind up with zero or one manufacturer (and one remaking old games)

If JJP and Stern made games that were better than their competition, they wouldn't have an issue. The fact that you are even insinuating that they might lose to a game from 15 years ago says a lot.

If JJP and Stern can't survive a few Bally/Williams remakes, they weren't going to make it anyway, or their games weren't really all that good to begin with.

I think Stern will be fine, they survived the recession. Barely, but they survived. I know nothing about JJP.

Sigh... more cluelessness. You and others seem to think mine is an accusatory stance, and it is not. I even stated as much in my post, but apparently a lot of Pinside can't comprehend basic English. Again, I am not encouraging Rick to stop. He asked for perspectives and I gave him one.

It is simple cause and effect. Money spent on MMR is money not spent on other, new games. $8 million is a lot of money. If sales of new games suffer as a result, the companies that make them may close. I am not choosing sides between Stern, JJP or Rick, I'm simply stating potential reprucussions. Money for pinballs is not umlimited, and running a pinball factory of any sort is expensive. Can the market support 3 companies producing new games, PLUS all the used games currently for sale?

How many people, in 1997, would have thought Stern would outlive the mighty WMS going into 2000? How many of you were even around in 1997? If Jack or Stern fail to sell enough product, they will close, possibly abruptly, and that will be bad.

Finally, you really shouldn't speak without knowing all the facts. We have an MMR on order, so your last statement is complete and utter bullshit. We already have an original low play MM, but were intrigued by potential new technology on this one, so put a deposit down. One will get sold. Which MM we decide to keep depends on how the new one looks, and what the "TBD" line on the comparison chart looks like.

I'd like to see some.. any kind of proof for this claim. This is a small market, and the entrance of a 3rd producer of new product radically changes things, especially when his R&D budget is significantly less than the others. Yes, Stern and JJP need to step up, competition is good. Perhaps it will be Rick that doesn't make it... who knows? I simply am not convinced there is enough market for 3 companies, but will be quite happy to be proven wrong. That would be the best outcome by far - all three staying in business. If I am right, however, I would prefer the companies that are innovating to be the ones who survive.

Care to share? or is this a personal matter?

Why do you think PPS is not innovating? They have redesigned the whole board set for MMR from that of the original, one of the things MM owners like to point out as negative. Who knows, Stern and JJP may choose to mimic this design if it turns out to be a success.

And I'm still curious if Williams approval is for mmr only or if it's broader. As the previous poster noted too, the current design could mean a game swap for these machines could be a play field swap similar to pin 2000. I'd love to have a mint MB, AFM, MM, CC, Totan....you get the idea. Failing having full machines I'd settle for 2 cabinets with my favorite art on the outside and 6 play fields of specific games. That would mean I could have a B/W collection (maybe at less than 8k per game if the play fields are half of cost of a complete unit) AND still have room for a stern and a jjp or two. Win for all and likely wishful thinking.

They're just emulating the WMS MM code, something that's been possible for over 10 years. It's also been possible for a while, at least theoretically, to run a real machine from pinmame. It's nice to see PPS commercialize the emulation and reduce to a barebones CPU, but there's nothing here nearly as cool as, say, the RGB LEDs in WOZ and STLE.

Again, if the market were stronger, I'd have no worries, but there's a lot of quality used product out for sale, and now 1000 ruby WOZs, and now 1000 MMrs. For comparison, that's more than the entire Family Guy run. I think we'll need to expand the hobby beyond where it is now to support all these, plus the other projects we saw at Expo.

why are you arguing that fewer competitors equals a healthier marketplace? that can't possibly be an honest argument on your part, it's so ludicrous.

Nice ad hom.

Pretty sure everyone here gets the basic economic principle of supply and demand. The demand is there, so whatever else happens the market is doing what it should. You might not like it, but hey, that's the invisible hand for you.

there are currently about 4000 MMs, soon there will be 5000. the sky is falling!

You sure about that statement?

Thanks for the insult. *coughdouchebagcough* OK, now that that's over....

Why is it that no one has complained about what one pin-thing does to another pin-thing until now? When Gene made BBB, did anyone cry that this would affect Stern? When Wayne was attempting MMr, were people worried how this would affect Stern? When games get restored and sold at retail, is that taking money away from Stern? When JJP came on the scene, were there cries about JJP taking money from Stern? Is Jpop taking money from JJP & Stern!?!? When Heighway goes into production, is that taking money away from Stern, JJP, Jpop, and PPS!?!?!?!? If P3 goes into production, will that kill EVERYONE!?!?!?

It's just silly...no one EVER complained about one pin-thing THREATENING TO DESTROY another until now....the only thing it's destroyed is the price of MM originals.

Yes, this is a niche market...and this is just one game that's had lots of demand within the niche. It's not going to destroy Stern or JJP. Many in the NIB game can likely afford both....and there are plenty of Stern-haters who will buy a MMr and never would have bought a Stern anyway.

Wrong. There were ~2500 FGY's made.

You're assuming that every one of these MMR purchasers would otherwise spend that money on another "new" machine. I am getting one. If I wasn't getting this, I wouldn't be spending it on some other "new" machine.

Wanna see what the market can do? Make 1,000 of Monster Bash, AFM, CC and BBB for $6,500 each. How many do you think will be sold?

Jesus jumpin' jackrabbits, 2500?!! That's enough pinballs to destroy everything we hold dear! How did we dodge that bullet?

They made more but disguised them as Shreks. Otherwise we'd be dodging a missile.

LTG : )

We're all gonna die aaaaaaaaaahhh!

Yeah baby! Bring it!
Pinball is dead, long live Pinball!

Sure I can.

I don't mean to derail this conversation, but the elephant in the room is, if the market is expanding, not contracting, and prices are going up faster than inflation, materials cost, and labor, then is it just people's pockets being lined? I guess charge what the market will bear, and some people would say why not, but it's a little hard to stomach for the rest of us.

That's directed at Stern, JJP, anyone, not just this MMR project. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't have all the pieces obviously, but that's sure what it looks like.

The Shamwow costs Vince just .34 cents landed in the USA, and he sells them for $20.

He also test marketed them at $15 and $25, but $20 was the highest number that most consumers would pay.

Is he lining his pockets, or providing you a nice towel to soak up your wine spills?

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He's just a spokesman

His day job is fighting scientologists and making horrible movies!

No, he really owns the company.

I think we are trying to get an official answer to this question.

Already been answered. Game is coming with an LCD that can change to any monochrome color you want - but since it's already a color LCD, when they figure out how they're going to do the colorization - it can be applied with a software update.

Hey, I've been selling my Shadow translite in the forums. I won't lie, I'm selling it for more than it costs me to make. I don't mind people making a profit on their work. I'm not gonna quit my day job or anything, but I feel like I was compensated for all the time I spent on it.

I just wonder, if you look at the prices of NIB Sterns over the last say decade, and track them against costs, inflation, labor etc, it doesn't really add up. I just figured the market was contracting and prices were going up to compensate. Maybe though we're all just getting tested for fleecing. Looking to see what the $25 is. And really, I blame Jack for that more than Gary.

Anyways, it is what it is, free market blah blah. Part of it is just sour grapes on my part, who wants the thing you like to cost more? But more than that I worry we're getting to the point where the hobby just can't survive. We'll see I guess!

(To be clear, no hate at Rick, he can charge whatever he likes, obviously he picked a price that people are still lining up for.)

What you are trying to say is... unless MMR *GROWS* the market.. it cannibalizes revenue from Stern/JJP.

I find it very unlikely that a remake that sold out in a day did anything to grow the market - but rather sucked a lot of money out of it for the next 12-24months. The game was not marketed outside the established community, and didn't have a chance to be bought outside the community. Hence, it's all money from the existing market. I doubt MMR standard will bring operators out of hibernation give the game's price point.

Anyone who thinks MMR has no impact on Stern/etc needs to look at who is buying the game... it's the existing customers of the other vendors. The existence of MMR didn't boost everyone's incomes.. so everyone is fighting for the same dollars.

I am getting and MMRLE and I decided to pass on the STLE as a result. There is just so much money I can spend on pins in a year and stay married. I will look for an HUO STLE in a year or maybe there will still be NIB's available.

Okay already we get it you don't like that they are remaking one of the best pins ever and that people are actually buying it. Not to mention you won't be able to flip it. Why do you insist on continually raining on the parade of those that want the pin? Your concerns sarcastic remarks and dislike are well documented. Just let it go man.

I'd rather have a NIB Remake than pay more for a 20 year old pin that is a cold hard fact.

Awesome Ill be at PAGG can't wait!!!

I wish success in bringing any great game from the 90's era back to today's market. Hope to have one of these someday when a big enough room allows it. I just wish the newer games being made today pulled me in like the older ones. The more the merrier!

BBB was only 150 units (expanded to 180-something) vs unlimited MMstd and 1K LEs, most people never took Wayne seriously, and none of the restorers have the capability to put out games like a proper factory does.

To the rest: as I said (do you guys read beyond the first sentence?) .. I do hope Rick is right, I am wrong, and that the market has expanded enough to accommodate everyone. We won't know for a while if it has. You can't say with a straight face, however, that his announcement hasn't had any effect on Stern or JJP's sales. You simply don't suck $8M+ out of a niche market and not have any impact on the current manufacturers, even if it's only one or two people. Hopefully it really is only a few.

I was there when innovative new technology (Pinball 2000) died an early death mostly due to perceived lack of demand, and then we had to suffer through crap like Striker Extreme and Stern Harley for a couple years. That sucked and I'd prefer not to repeat it. That's the only reason I'm pointing this out.

i believe it is ok that there's more manufactures out there and it has an impact to stern. honestly, i'd rather stern only release 2 unbelievably awesome mind-blowing innovative must-have games a year, instead of a ton of rushed incomplete stuff.

Metalik why do you care so much? Just do what yo say is important and go buy new games with unfinished code or sort of finished code. If you really believe what you say go buy those new games. Some of us were not in the hobbie in 97 or did not have the funds in our twenties do buy a pinball machine. You keep repeating yourself like a broken record.

Your not changing anyone's mind who got burned by Stern (Metallica shitty quality and code)or JJP(pick your poison ,two Le models, delays ect). Rick was a gentleman to work with and has a sense of humor it seems. New or old pinball is pinball, buy what makes you happy but this is a thread for mm updates. I could care less that you think the new games are the bomb, still pop bumpers, targets,bash toys with little to know innovation. In the end good game is a good game releases in the nineties or remade now.

Rick has a great sense of humor. Kind of laid back and sneaks up on you. I was reminded of this a couple days ago.

LTG : )

I keep repeating myself because you still don't get it. I'm not trying to "change anyone's mind." My first post clearly stated that Rick should not stop the project. Rick basically asked "what could go wrong" and asked for perspectives, and I provided one explaining just what might go wrong. Enter the reading-comprehension-challenged peanut gallery of pinside MM fans going off on a tangent thinking I want to derail the project, when I clearly never wrote any such thing. More "experts" insisting there will be no impact whatsoever, yet just a few posts above an MMr was chosen over STLE. I am not cheering any 'side' - I hope they all succeed. Unfortunately, it appears to be impossible to conduct intelligent debate on manufacturers or the market without people freaking out on pinside.

Sorry but I think a guy who is not interested in buying the machine making a dozen posts in a thread for official updates on that machine is pretty much the definition of derailing. It'd be annoying even without your penchant for slinging insults.

Here is my perspective from a new person to the hobby. I have recently gotten into pinball (1st post). A big part of my diving in head first is by playing MM at SS Billiards. More great games equal a greater chance to bring more people into the hobby. Bringing a friend to play MMR on game night has a greater chance of a convert than a lesser game, especially if the theme appeals to him/her like MM did to me.

Also, after 3, 5 or 10 remakes, who is to say that PPS doesn't say "Hey we are doing pretty good, let's try a new original game." Perhaps we'll even see a Scared Stiffer or a new game where you play as the King of Payne and capture the princess, save the dragon, and reign horror on your peasants!

Even if the remakes caused a manufacturer to go out of business (very unlikely), then that frees up money to support the boutique market which would then grow even faster and likely with more unique layouts. I agree the invisible hand is at work and I welcome PPS!

If Stern is unable to finish code for games such as XM which they took our money for, I hope they see a steep decline in sales secondary to PPS or JJP or other makers, it might make someone at Stern realize we are entitle to a fully coded game.

If they want to survive (Stern), don't worry about PPS, worry about your own games and hopefully if you finish games code and innovate beyond single color DMD, than people will support them.

I do believe $8m+ is being taken out of the pinball circulation that might have gone to $7800 Stern LEs or $14000 MM (old) causing old games to be sold lower as well as new games being passed on.

The reading comprehension comments are not insults, they're fact. Obviously you STILL have not read or comprehended my posts because I stated we have an MMr on order. Obviously we have an interest in buying it if one is on order.

What the hell has happened to intelligence on pinside?

Dude, this is the interwebz, not Harvard.
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However at the end of the day, it's still just pinball. Don't sweat it and go toss some balls around.

you signed up?

i hope calling everyone stupid really helps with your own ego issues. also sorry i forgot about your weird plan to buy MMR and flip either it or your original MM, but that doesn't change the fact that your assertion that less competition is better for the hobby makes no sense.

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