It's always been such a contentious business. It doesn't surprise me in the least that Williams tried that. They were quite stupid in so many business ways. And it REALLY doesn't surprise me that it didn't work. Operators were always a fickle bunch, and there were plenty of other options for that same floor space over a pinball machine.

And then you had big distributors in the middle, almost always working both sides against one another.

--Donnie

It's an open forum and in this thread I've seen suggestions/observations/concerns being voiced by customers and responded to by Rick. Which is a good thing in my view. If you want just updates go here.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/medieval-madness-remake-updates

To me it sounds like PPS may not need to run the standard MMr?? Run the LE's and move on to MB & CC
That would certainly lock in the sale of 1000 LE machines as of right now many are taking a wait and see attitude because they can just pick up a standard later.

^ I had posted the above on an another thread and am curious... Is there a need for the run of standard MMr with all the cancellations of MMr LE?

well, we have no way of knowing how many if any of the MMRLEs are unsold even with the cancellations. also, just because there isn't a huge waiting list, that doesn't mean distributors wouldn't be able to move non-LEs after a while. from a cost efficiency perspective, I assume PPS would certainly rather satisfy *all* demand for MMR before retooling for the next pin.

1000 units may seem like a lot, but it's less than 25% of the machine's original run, which was already a small, abbreviated run. how many total Star Trek machines is Stern making? (there were something like 800 LEs if I remember right ... how many "pros" etc?)

That's what I have been thinking ever since I have been seeing the wave of drop outs over the past month. I predict there will be a strong surge of drop offs right when they announce the end of the cancellation dead line. I’m betting strong enough that it will backfill the remaining standards with LE orders. I think at 1k LEs the demand will be filled for new MMs at that price point. You have to consider the 4600 classic models already out there. I also predict they won’t sell too many standards at 8k. That's why there is a risk to not staying on for an LE and waiting for a standard, which may never come. The only wildcard there is if they drop the price of the standard to 7k or less, then the pipe of orders will fill back up but, the risk there is that if there isn’t enough premium features on the LEs over the standard, they will piss off LE buyers with the large price reduction. So I’m back to saying I have my doubts on the standard model.

I am curious if the 'msrp' price will be the selling price of the standards or subject to discounts or 'real selling price' like WoZ and Stern dealers prices.

If that's the case and say standards sell for $6995 + shipping this would punish early ordere unlike WoZ which gave a good discount for taking the risk of pre ordering, plus you'd be in a position to possibly know the next game in line and choose for example people buy MMR but if BBB is next some might rather wait for that.

they could also drop the non-LE all together if it seems like only a dozen people want one.

Maybe. But if the standards don't sell don't expect a price drop. They'll just move to the next game title and charge 8k for an Le version. Or at least try to. I'm interested to know if Williams would need to sign off on each title. Economies of scale. If they can produce the cabinets and boards en mass and they don't need to get Williams to sign off on each title means they only need focus on the play fields with components and cabinet art. That would need a limited buy Inn order of about 1000. That would be no different than how play field runs and repro for plastics and parts are currently done. If each title is going to be a net new project with Williams approval means it's gonna be much longer between games and all games will be 7k+

You'd think all this talk about trim would get the male pinsiders excited... not so much

Why on earth would they drop standard model, it sold for same as deluxe model. At worst they might drop price and refund difference to initial buyers.

If I were Rick I would simply have built it with the original standard trim with chrome as an extra cost option (as with invisiglass) and not have to deal with all this bickering. Thanks for putting up with it Rick. You have good intentions.

Way to much $$$.

Was told wholesale is $7500, Don't plan a big drop. Are the MMR dealers actually sold out. I know that a tough question since everyone can back out. MMR will always been know as the Knock Off MM, it's not a Williams game. Think about it, that's why Williams doesn't want their name on the game. Makes sense to me.

I love how a few online members is considered a wave. This is one of the most loved pins of all time and with all the other LE stuff selling for near $8K I highly doubt they will have trouble selling at the very least 1,000 units.

Okay dude glad it makes sense to you. Still makes no sense to me but to each their own. I personally am not paying 15-20K for an 20 year old pin simply because it has a Williams logo on it when I can get a NIB Remake that uses newer technology for $8K.

Maybe "Pre-Sale", how many never sent the $1000? I know the Wayne buyers are making up 300 or so. My friend got his letter and got a $500 credit on a $3000 increase in price. net zero!

I'd call it a wave of dropouts, but I wouldn't say the wave is necessarily very large.

In a different thread where folks were discussing why prices seemed to be tanking on a LOT of high dollar pins, one theory tossed out was all the money that MMR had "taken out of the system." Even if it's "only" the deposits, that means those folks are probably saving up or sitting on money for MMR that they can't spend right now.

There was a big fervor to get signed up on this one, so a lot of people probably did it on impulse. And since then, it affected not only MM prices, but also the prices of a lot of other games to the point that people are probably thinking "man, I should just bow out and do something different NOW rather than wait."

I don't think it's totally unexpected nor does it necessarily mean anything hugely bad for MMR.

--Donnie

Well in one of the other threads here, that was the strong argument many guys where making, that they had all these buddies that where dropping out. I recall some guys saying something along the lines of out of 5 guys they know that made deposits, 4 of them dropped out. I'm just basing it off the flap that I was reading here. It sure sounded like a wave anyway. Maybe I wrong, I still think there is going to be a boat load dropping out before cutoff.

The LE and Standard are both 8K right?

that's the list price but who knows what the dealers can sell them for, Stern sells for less than MSRP.

Funny, I was just getting ready to say that I bet Rick is thrilled he jumped into the pinball manufacturing pool. Good luck, you see what you're in for! "Don't let the bastards wear you down"

Don't listen to the negative people, the majority I know wish you nothing but the best and all the success your work deserves.
My little boys and I are super stoked to be getting this pin next year!!! I cannot thank you enough!

Ruck don't let these people get to you . They are lying and trying to sway others by ther deception I've seen it before and we will see it again you and PPS are doing a great job! The new MM is the best thing that has happened to pinball since Williams /Bally stopped producing games Thanx Rick you are awesome!

Well that puts that argument to rest. Your right though folks around here are a crabby bunch and its hard not to get drug into it at times. Thanks for listening to our gripes still. I'm still onboard.

I'm on board for MM 1000% and the 2 games that come after it (hopefuly MB & CC)

Will we be given any kind of warning about when Williams approval is coming?

still have a very strong feeling AFM is next in line…

maybe CC afterwards

i'm still in as well.

Is the color changing LCD software a sure thing?

That is a major selling point for me, wanted to see where you are on that front?

thanks

Thanks Rick!

I hope roger enjoys it - supply ample ale if he is that way inclined to help the process along!

So who cares if 5 guys dropped out or that someone knew 5 that dropped out? These 'strong arguments' tend to be made by people that don't really want the project to have success whom have little access to actual information. Those that tend to make these type of claims are primarily by current owners or restorers. It's doubtful there is any wave of drop outs and am pretty darn sure they will sell all 1,000 LE models easily next year.

Ageed^^^

Yep, that should do it... just wait until the additional $7000 is due!

"refake"
"one and done"
"IF they get made"
"just wait till the money is due"

man you will say literally anything you can think of to sow worry and negativity about this project, huh? just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

Yes, that should cover it...

well, at least one person dropped out because I was on the waiting list and that's how I got it. And yes, I paid my $1000 immediately. I am guessing there are many others on the waiting list hoping there will be more dropping out. Perhaps even some of those spouting the negativity? Hmmmm.

Do you secretly love MM14? I'll bet you're a customer...

http://allpsych.com/psychology101/defenses.html

Just keep in mind, 97% of the people are happy and excited! Some of us, unhealthily excited about it! Some people in particular are just really good at being loud, and that's unfortunate, but we are VERY much looking forward to the game and whatever info, pics, video, insight etc you can provide us along the way!

Rick,
Sometimes people here talk for the sake of talking I guess (me included) I could not be happier to be on board with this project!
If I get hit by a bus the day after I get to unbox my NIB MM then I will have died a happy man as it was something I have wanted to do since I got into pinball nearly 14 years ago.
You build it we will buy it!
Thanks for your efforts and your updates!

Curmudgeonly
Useless
Negative
Tony

...it never is...

Thanks for checking into it Rick. As much as the black looks cool, just getting a NIB MM is good enough for me.

It probably won't be, but I vote for TOTAN as the next remake.

Thx Rick - I'd rather have reliable, predictable, solid over flashy, extreme, unpredictable.

I just want my LE differentiated from the old and standard... I don't want a custom pin!