I want my MM to look as much like the original as possible.

I did want mine to look original but that 'Black Nickel' MM pic looks great.

I'd probably go with black nickel too if given the option. I'm ok with this game looking different, there is no getting around that this is not an "original", so if it can be improved, have at it.

Now that's the stuff! Can't wait!

I don't think the game is original, but it should look original. A few people are vocal on the whole black nickel thing, it's one thing to make it an option but another to force everyone to go that way.

Yeh, nobody said they would. I just know Rick reads this so I'm throwing my 2 cents in. I think there are a lot of people who agree as well.

Also, if they have a finite amount of time, and the trim is as complicated as it sounds, I'd much rather them scrap all these seemingly difficult upgrades and focus on what really matters, get this thing FEELING like a MM. You don't play the trim and while customization is a neat idea, I'm not sure this is the project to break ground in that area.

I completely agree with this. I'm guessing that part of the problem, however, is that PPS has painted themselves into a corner with it. They sold the "LE" as having an option for upgraded trim. If they were to pull that option, they will have angry depositors. I'm on the fence with the trim question, so it would solve my internal debate, but there will be others that are not as understanding. I do, however, love the look of the black nickel / black chrome!

Maybe not if they dropped the price and made the fancy trim a paid option?

At which point they're back to spending time trying to figure out a good trim option, and the only difference is that they are making less money due to people "downgrading".

They said it would come in standard or gold, absolutely follow through with your promise. They'll figure it out I'm sure, but stop there. Concentrate and figure the game out. I couldn't imagine the blow-back if they decided to offer a black trim and problems with that were the reason games got delayed 3 weeks or 6 weeks or however long it would take to figure something like that out.

Not worth the time, money or risk to try and figure out a black option.

Best statement this thread has seen in a while! If they want to offer options after the fact that's one thing, but deliver it as sold. Enhancements like invisiglass or whatever is one thing, but don't change how it looks based on people's opinion. This is a WMS-approved remake, not a crowd-driven game

I want my MM to look better than the original, so to me I'm voting on Black Nickel or chrome black

I want to get something extra for my money, and I'm not too into gold trim, so for the LE at least it would be nice to have an optional premium finish.

Yes, and if you want it to look "better" that's a personal taste. One of the really nice things about staying true to the original is you can pick up a set of trim from anywhere and get it painted/plated/coated to your taste!

Yes. I would like the remake to be improved on all levels if possible. So far we have newer tech with the boardset, double cleared playfield, color LCD display, LEDs, and if we can get the rails/legs/wireforms upgraded we should have a nicely updated MM that will stand out over its 17 year old origional and up against even some of your most current pins of today.

True but, at 8k, I'm not looking at dumping an additional 2k into upgrades.

Sometimes, they nail it the first time. MM is probably the most popular game in history. You are talking about different, not better. How it shipped, is perfect. Some people want gold, some chrome, some black, you won't please everyone. IMO, to please the most amount of people, ship it how people remember it which is as original as possible. It's MM, how does changing some colors update the game 17 years? It's the same game, different colors, so what?

Isn't it closer to $350 for a powder coating job? Maybe someone can chime in if I'm wrong.

Also, using your logic, if we get $2,000 in crap upgrades, that means $2,000 needs to be cut from somewhere else. I'd like the quality to go into the game, not the trim. My hunch is that PPS isn't going to take a $2K hit so we can have pretty trim. Screw the trim.

Medieval Madness is far from the most popular. It only sold ~6,000 units while Addams Family sold over 20,000 not mentioning the gold edition.

How many units sold has nothing to do with popularity. MM was made in another time, in a time when pinball was on the decline. AF was made in the pinball heyday. However, yah, you can debate AF is more popular. I guess it depends if you ask hard core pinheads or casual players. Pinball tanked in those 5 years.

MM is ONE OF the most popular pinballs of all time. Better?

True,

And I believe there is a lot ridding on this trim decision, some people are cooling on the remake. Not saying all or most, but this is one of those things that unlike WoZ preorder where there was a discount involved to keep people invested. This is a full $8k plus shipping. It would pay huge dividends for PPS to make this game as good as possible not just for the sake of MMR sales but for any future games.

If for some reason the boards or the LEDs do not work out or if people have to spends another boat load on trim, that could have been added as standard option. Than there will be less demand or interest in remakes at this price point.

It is far easier and cheaper to have a trim option come from the factory than to buy after the fact and be paying double for legs and side-rails and lock down trim etc...

As I said, $8k plus shipping is a big nut enough without having to add another grand or more for an elective trim option. It would be nice if the LE editions at least were in fact given more than promised rather than the least that was promised and no more.

MM total production was 4016 units
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=4032

Wow, So if either A.) the game is unplayable or B.) the trim isn't to someones liking there will be less demand in future remakes? Becaue of the trim? Really? You think the color of the trim is as important as the game working?

Again, let's say your right and it costs PPS 1/2 price. That's still "$500 or more" (your words) that needs to be cut from somewhere else! They aren't going to take the hit, where / what gets cut to make up that money for your personal preference?

I guess what I'm saying here is that Stern and JJP are building games with powder coat or chrome rails/legs these days and not really so much with stainless. Thats an update to newer pins.

I was really referring to overall, not just the trim. At 8k, this should be pre-upgraded much like Stern and JJP LE models are.

Enough with the trim! Rick show some good pics, please!!!!

I think what Rick was saying, when he said something like "I like the black look, we will look at that", is that maybe they would add a third option. 'standard' and 'gold trim' are both going to happen, I have absolutely zero doubt in that. Now whether the gold lives up to all of the expectations of what people want, that is a different question, since clearly there are a lot of different opinions on how that should be done. I think a third option would be great, since the look of black seems to really appeal to people.

Rick wants to make people happy, and will do what he can, within reason, to achieve that.

I'm not seeing the "risk" in offering an additional trim option as long as the other options are also offered.

I really really really could care less if the machine is 3 weeks late, hell I could care less if it's 6 months late as long as they get it RIGHT. the last thing I want is for them to rush it out the door due to an artificial deadline. we're going to be owning these machines for a long, long time. I'd rather they wait until it's done before letting it out the door. timeliness of delivery is the LAST priority as far as I'm concerned. quality is the top.

I never said how much a trim upgrade costs, I just said that people don't want to spend a boat load to upgrade if we were given an option we were happy with.

Again, to you $8k might be no big deal, but to many it's high borderline high. If enough people are on the fence wouldn't it be to everyone's benefit to get them off the fence and strongly on board the project.

You say trim doesn't matter and we should 'get over it'. I say it's better to get along with the majority or make the game sell out or strongly sell out not have people drop off the band wagon.

I believe if there is 30% of people who would prefer some type of shinny black trim (look at the poll) whatever the number probably a majority or maybe a clear faction want something other than gold.

You are saying piss off to anyone who has a preference on trim other than gold than there could be some people drop out, that might lead to lower sales which might lead to lower profits (even taking into account it might cost more to offer a third trim color).

Simple... economies of scale, inventory, and labor.

For every variant purchased, that is one less piece needed from a larger pool. Smaller runs = higher cost per part.

For every variant purchased, that is more inventory that must be received, handled, sorted, stored, and manipulated. For every variant purchased, you also now need more spares for overrun, defects, service, etc.

Having variations in the production line adds complexity and time = more costs.

My input on the whole 'originality' discussion is improvements to the original game's concepts for reliability, modernization, etc should be on the table. Things that make the LE an LE... that makes sense, but those choices should be universal.. that's what makes it an LE.

But don't make offer a 'build a pin' site or a 'custom pin'. Those are MODS - not 'improvements'

As a business process, what a nightmare that would be! If my history is right, Ford offered the model T in only black. Easy to produce. Imagine someone gearing up to make a car intended to have no options and suddenly people are asking for choices of colors, trim, etc. Your overhead goes through the roof trying to manage things.

My 'on the fence' poll shows 33% on the fence or definitely out

The color trim option poll thread shows 73% prefer 'black nickel' option

Do the math.

You want less people on the fence and you want the majority to get their preferred trim color.

The announced MMRLE would come with gold trim but that anyone could opt for silver (stainless?) trim (to look more like the original) instead. I have chosen gold trim but will change to silver/stainless if the gold winds up being a non-shiny powdercoated finish. And I'd be just fine with that. PPS took orders based on those announced finishes and I'm sure they will follow through and offer those two options.

Only in threads here on Pinside did people start requesting additional alternative finishes. Rick at PPS could have immediately said no, that gold or silver were the only two choices. Instead he said that while they were determining which type of gold finish would be used, he would also look into if some kind of black finish was feasible. Whether a third finish option gets added or not, I think Rick has shown to be very responsive to people's questions and concerns.

you seriously think a trim option is going to sway a buyer though? The initial statement was gold or silver. I never voted..... so how many people are actually in that poll? 20?

I agree with your logic, that is only 10% of the total though

The poll is irrelevant since it assumes gold means crappy gold powder coat.

the trim poll has more than 100 votes on the poll not 20

The on the fence poll has more than 200 votes

It sounds like you don't believe anyone anyone is on the fence, this is the old 'head in the sand' argument.

People *are* on the fence and people have dropped out for one reason or another, the trick is to keep people from dropping out.

I never said PPS had to offer a third option, I said it would be a good idea, that this is a toy costing $8300 or whatever with shipping. Some people would find that a lot of money and a bit of hand holding or making the buyers happy could go a long way to selling out and then some.

Right. Because people on pinside, that would read this thread, and decide to vote, is a good representation of "pinball." Pinside is only a small minority of "pinball" and people here tend to like their game more modded than most.

It's like polling Ford drivers and asking thing which is better, Ford or Chevy. Zing! A car reference!

This is a tough spot here.

2 coats of clear on the standard? Peer pressure got them to listen.

Now people are trying to get other things to change.

Difficult to manage, especially since orders are in, but still cancelable.

Then how about some pics and video instead of all this superfluous trim talk!?!?!?

Right. So you prefer black trim, and you don't mind waiting. What if, I don't prefer black trim and I do mind waiting? What if the black trim is the hold up and games don't get built until that is figured out?

Nobody is saying they don't want quality, but look at all the issues the gold comes with: Clearcoat or not, tarnishing, gold chrome, gold powder coat, glossy, matte. Your preference takes time, and time is money. After finding a gold finish, black would come with all the same challanges and they'd be at square one.

It's just trim. That's all I'm saying. Lets see how the actual game turns out, and then worry about really minor details.

Ah I'm not trying to be mean about this...kinda came off that way, sorry.

Ok so the issues I see are, we are a public forum, so the owners aren't the only ones voting. There will be people dropping out no matter what, they got excited now they have something else to buy or realize they don't want a MMR, trim not even an issue. If the trim option (beyond gold or silver) makes a buyer back out, that is kind of crazy. you can easily do that trim yourself. They promised gold/silver. I understand Rick said he could look into others, so we will see what happens, but if you pre-ordered knowing gold or silver, (with the good gold/brass lets say) and you back out because they don't offer nickle black? That person never wanted the machine to begin with if that little issue will make them back out. We can't expect too much beyond what was promised at release. If things are offered or added, that is a nice bonus. All I want is my Gold LE.

Then get the standard trim? That's the most "original" anyway since that seems your biggest concern.

You have the option to go stainless steel for the original look. So what is the problem with providing a durable option for the armor that many people think looks great? They would not be forcing anyone to do anything since the original steel look for the armor has always been and still is an option. I think the black chrome powder coat option looks better than the gold personally so I am glad Rick is looking into some different potential options.

I'm on the fence on this pin & the possibility of black trim/habit rails is keeping me in.
If Rick thought that investigating options was going to derail the entire project he would not have considered it. If he thought it did not add value to the product he would not consider it.

There is more than one person working on this machine, looking into some trim options is not causing a bottle neck.

that was 1908. Here in 2013, almost every car is offered with a variety of options. even small startups have figured out a way to offer myriad variances without going bankrupt.

you are making a very weird assumption that offering black trim would for some reason cause a huge delay to delivery, let alone delay delivery for people who didn't even order it. I don't think PPS would bother offering it if it meant that kind of impact. (not that they HAVE offered it. but I think it'd be a popular choice if it turned out to be feasible, which imo should be for PPS to judge)

Williams cut production early on MM to teach those bad operators to buy when it came out or miss out. Not to wait for close outs. My distributors first order was 180, and they only got 90.

Wasn't popularity, it was Williams debacle. The outcome was operators were already losing interest in pins, so then they quit buying.

LTG : )
Disclaimer : Ballyhoo topped them all with 75,000

Isn't this an update thread? Take the trim talk to the trim thread.

Rick - your next update, please.....and include new pics, thanks

How about a Video?

Don't forget the : "We've got final approval from WMS"

I want to see pics and video as well but, with black nickel.

Lloyd knows all. Very cool info!