(Topic ID: 67443)

MMR PPS and Overall Update - Official PPS (Oct 21, 2013)


By PPS

5 years ago



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#5151 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

I'm done on the topic on pinside

Yup! The people we REALLY want here, we drive away....

23
#5152 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

And what parts would 'those be' ... you know something I don't ... again, just stirring things ... I'm done on the topic on pinside, if someone wants to call me on the phone and have a long discussion on things. You have my cell #.
Rick

Seriously? He was clearly referring to the coin mechs and including a store credit that could be used to obtain the coin mechs (or presumably toward other parts). He wasn't "stirring" things at all - just making a reasonable and logical suggestion.

You don't seem to understand how (or why) the coin mech issue has so many people bothered. It's more to do with how (and when) it was communicated and the principle of it all. Your explanation of "it's too hard to deal with on the manufacturing line" is an insult to anyone who has ever dealt with the logistics of manufacturing - it's certainly no where near as hard to deal with as you make it out to be and to imply that it is difficult for Stern to do is just laughable.

Not including coin mechs on a MMR was either a cost reduction move or just poor planning. To try and portray it as anything else (as you have now done multiple times) is both disingenuous and insulting. It's unfortunate that you don't seem to think more highly of your customers or understand why some of them feel "nickle and dimed" over this.

PPS has handled this issue very poorly and you don't seem to care. That probably isn't going to hurt you in the long run, given your pretty much complete ownership of WMS pinball rights, but it certainly doesn't reflect well on you either. A lot of us are going to spend a lot of money making money for PPS - don't insult our intelligence or take advantage of our good will in the process.

#5153 5 years ago

Er, you should put a disclaimer that you're only speaking for yourself....

#5154 5 years ago

I'm getting a MMr and am not bothered by a lack of coin mechs. If it is not a cost cutting factor than I would love to see the money saved put into something like plastic protectors or something that all games could use.

#5155 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Guys ... I didn't just fall off the turnip truck on this, I have alot of background on this, as well as Stern does, as well as Chicago Gaming does ... most everything is done for a reason (and occasionally things are overdone ...).
rick

So timing the coin mechs announcment after deposits became non-refundable was deliberate then and well thought out?

I did think it was just bad timing (until you made that statement) and wouldn't have a made any difference overall to orders (or noise) but I also think, like o-din, that giving every MMr LE purchaser a PPS/BAA $20 voucher with thier machine towards thier next purchase would be a win, win scenario. Oh and for pez et el no I don't have a coin in this particular slot but I do think 8k is a shed load of dough overall for any pin with or without mods.

Let's face it the first post/question when PPS announces the next pin is going to be "does it come with coin mechs" (with a smiley face)? So just roll with it, stay good humored and think to yourself "if I had a dollar, or 20, for every smart a$$ that makes that comment, I'd be rich"

Over and out,

#5156 5 years ago

Question on the mechs -

Curious if anyone on here would have had strong objections if instead of eliminating the coin mechs, they just said that they would only be including US coin mechs in all the machines. Would there still be a fuss if that happened?

10
#5157 5 years ago

Coin mechs aside how we looking on building the games?

#5158 5 years ago

Just sell em at cost.

#5159 5 years ago
Quoted from Eryeal:

Question on the mechs -
Curious if anyone on here would have had strong objections if instead of eliminating the coin mechs, they just said that they would only be including US coin mechs in all the machines. Would there still be a fuss if that happened?

Why not german mechs?

#5160 5 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Why not german mechs?

Why not zero mechs?

#5161 5 years ago

So, PPS shelling out $20,000 over something that almost nobody except a few really loud people care about is a win/win?

Exactly how does PPS win? Excactly how many people canceled their $8,000 game over a couple $10 parts? None. Why would you think that?

Quoted from Sly_Old_Devil:

that giving every MMr LE purchaser a PPS/BAA $20 voucher with thier machine towards thier next purchase would be a win, win scenario.

All this fake outrage over $20 is insane

Can't we at least wait for the games to come out before we make judgement about how Rick feel about his customers? We are (hopefully shortly) going to know exactly how he feels. This means nothing, the quality of the game is millions of times more important.

Quoted from jfh:

It's unfortunate that you don't seem to think more highly of your customers or understand why some of them feel "nickle and dimed" over this.

#5162 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Coin mechs aside how we looking on building the games?

Now that's something most of us actually care about!

#5163 5 years ago

The last official update I believe said the "last days in July." Only a few hours of July left, if they are going to miss their estimated production time, a new estimate would be great.

Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Now that's something most of us actually care about!

-1
#5164 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

The last official update I believe said the "last days in July." Only a few hours of July left, if they are going to miss their estimated production time, a new estimate would be great.

I think no news may be good news. Rick stated in a previous post there wouldn't be constant updates unless things went off schedule.

#5165 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

Can't we at least wait for the games to come out before we make judgement about how Rick feel about his customers? We are (hopefully shortly) going to know exactly how he feels. This means nothing, the quality of the game is millions of times more important.

Of course the quality of the games is much more important. But think about it - if PPS isn't willing to deal with the softball issues it has generated to date, does that give you any warm fuzzys about how they would handle a defective run of PCB boards or whatever?

In many cases, perception is reality. PPS has shot themselves in the foot repeatedly on issues that could have been handled so much more professionally. For whatever reason, Rick seems to prefer doing everything he can to avoid taking responsibility for any of the issues or making anyone who asks reasonable (but difficult) questions seem like a loon. Each time, he digs in harder and deeper. I get that. I did that myself when I was young and thought my way was the best (and usually only) way.

It's an ego thing - those with an ego can never admit they didn't handle something properly. They see it as an issue of weakness, rather than a measure of strength. I was very successful in my career when I thought I knew it all, but became even more so when I realized I didn't. I hope Rick becomes more successful.

13
#5166 5 years ago

I'd be willing to bet the lack of a coin mech bothers more people than some think. Some people don't like to mix it up on forums. I stayed quiet up until now and figured it was worth posting my opinion. We were told the deposit was "locked in" and 5 hours later we were then told there would not be coin mechs included. That put a bad taste in my mouth. Up until that point everything PPS has done in my opinion was nothing short of amazing, but was then ruined with that announcement. I'm dumb enough to cancel my preorder (if I could) over such a small thing, but I keep telling myself it's going to be a lot easier to add the mech versus getting trim powder-coated, adding a shaker, and whatever other LE perks you might like. In the grand scheme of things if this is the only "hiccup" I'm not going to have a problem with it. I believe the decision on the coin mechs was solidified before the deposit became locked so it's a shame we weren't told when it happened. Just my opinion. Maybe the decision truly was made right before it was announced.

#5167 5 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

I'd be willing to bet the lack of a coin mech bothers more people than some think. Some people don't like to mix it up on forums.

Given the surprising number of PMs I've received this afternoon, I suspect you are absolutely correct.

#5168 5 years ago

Again, just so everyone is 100% clear, the coin much is just a small internal piece. The coindoor will look the same from the outside. I am still convinced some of the people complaining don't know this.

#5169 5 years ago

Who cares anymore. If your pissed off over whatever, just don't buy anything he sells ever again. I know that's impossible but so is changing the inevitable... No coin mechs! He's timing on this was blindsiding to say the least, but it is what it is. Stay cool and calm...relax...MM is coming

#5170 5 years ago

I'm afraid with all this bitching about coin mechs and past trim talk that Rick won't even want to tell us anything. Negative or not, cause someone will find something negative about it, such as some part being delayed. Would be nice to know how things are going even if there are delays. Everyone just loses their damn minds!! Let's stay positive and accept that our leader is doing the right things. Who knows, maybe there will be a surprise mod or something in the works for all us LE's.

#5171 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

So, PPS shelling out $20,000 over something that almost nobody except a few really loud people care about is a win/win?

My original idea was for vouchers to be offered to those that wanted the coin mechs without any extra out of pocket expense. Those that don't want them, don't need to use them.

Quoted from jalpert:

Exactly how does PPS win?

By ending this controversy and restoring customers faith that he is looking out for their best interests. I still don't know if the original MM came with these parts, but if it did that is one less expense for him.

#5172 5 years ago

Why don't you guys create a separate "were enraged over the no coin mechs" so the discussion here can remain about updates and other things regarding MMR. You've all stated your frustration here over and over and over we get it. I think it's time to give it a rest in this thread from this point forward and if you want a different topic to discuss this already tired subject you all are welcome to do that.

#5173 5 years ago

I don't know why people aren't talking more about the game going into production... Last I checked Rick said the end of July... todays July 31st.

elephant-in-the-room.jpg

#5175 5 years ago

All I want to know is if Rick is still going to give a discount for us that want mechs. I mean after all I GOTTA buy anything on sale! LOL! Hey that's what an old girlfriend used to say! LOL!

#5176 5 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Why don't you guys create a separate "were enraged over the no coin mechs" so the discussion here can remain about updates and other things regarding MMR. You've all stated your frustration here over and over and over we get it. I think it's time to give it a rest in this thread from this point forward and if you want a different topic to discuss this already tired subject you all are welcome to do that.

I think Dude, that Rick has left the building on MMR here.

He's going the way of another Pinside ex-poster who makes pins.

#5177 5 years ago
Quoted from mrclean:

I don't know why people aren't talking more about the game going into production... Last I checked Rick said the end of July... todays July 31st.

3rd quarter is what he said so as long as he starts by Sept. 31 I'm good.

#5178 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

I think Dude, that Rick has left the building on MMR here.
He's going the way of another Pinside ex-poster who makes pins.

No he said he's done with that topic not all Pinside in general.

#5179 5 years ago
Quoted from mrclean:

I don't know why people aren't talking more about the game going into production... Last I checked Rick said the end of July... todays July 31st.

elephant-in-the-room.jpg 34 KB

It'll be a nice change to see the pitchforks pointed at someone other than JJP for once with late games.

#5180 5 years ago

Would you like to buy a wick for that candle? Oh wait...no candle yet...

#5181 5 years ago

For the record, I don't care about the coin mechs. They usually scratch me in the arm when I am reaching inside the game.

10
#5182 5 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Why don't you guys create a separate "were enraged over the no coin mechs" so the discussion here can remain about updates and other things regarding MMR. You've all stated your frustration here over and over and over we get it. I think it's time to give it a rest in this thread from this point forward and if you want a different topic to discuss this already tired subject you all are welcome to do that.

Why?
We all know coin mechs are not coming. We all know we wouldn't have cancelled our orders based on this info. This is an MMRLE thread, and to some, buyers or no buyers (I am a buyer), this may be an important issue to work through. I don't like the complaining, yet I do have complaints also. I think it is ok to air complaints on a public forum in THE most popular MMRLE thread.
I love Rick for making this game, never underestimate that. But to hear many say things such as an $10 coin mech doesn't matter't in an 8K machine, or lets include standard US coin mechs in games and others can swap them out is ludicrous.
I live in Canada. Our coin mechs are $20/mech ($40…not terrible) but still costs. Our machine with money conversion and import/taxes comes to almost 10k. I'm sorry if that is a drop in the hat for you…to me, it is pretty significant. If I come to this forum to air my displeasure, so be it. I will read others posts, positive or negative and let myself take from it what I will.
I understand both sides…..

#5183 5 years ago

Maybe Rick could publicly announce his super discount pricing on the coin mechs by currency or something; a price only valid with proof of MME purchase.

#5184 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Seriously? He was clearly referring to the coin mechs and including a store credit that could be used to obtain the coin mechs (or presumably toward other parts). He wasn't "stirring" things at all - just making a reasonable and logical suggestion.

You don't seem to understand how (or why) the coin mech issue has so many people bothered. It's more to do with how (and when) it was communicated and the principle of it all. Your explanation of "it's too hard to deal with on the manufacturing line" is an insult to anyone who has ever dealt with the logistics of manufacturing - it's certainly no where near as hard to deal with as you make it out to be and to imply that it is difficult for Stern to do is just laughable.

Not including coin mechs on a MMR was either a cost reduction move or just poor planning. To try and portray it as anything else (as you have now done multiple times) is both disingenuous and insulting. It's unfortunate that you don't seem to think more highly of your customers or understand why some of them feel "nickle and dimed" over this.

PPS has handled this issue very poorly and you don't seem to care. That probably isn't going to hurt you in the long run, given your pretty much complete ownership of WMS pinball rights, but it certainly doesn't reflect well on you either. A lot of us are going to spend a lot of money making money for PPS - don't insult our intelligence or take advantage of our good will in the process.

This is the best response EVER and sums it all up very succinctly!!!

Rick, I don't know you . . . you may be one of the grandest guys in the world, but this one issue of the coin mechs and how trivial you think it is, has set the tone for my future buying.

I bought a coin operated machine COMPLETE. While others are salivating over the trim, I could care less and would have been happy with whatever you chose and sent me a complete pin that we can slug coins in. I still think this is now NOT a complete pin. And I never expected leaving out the coin mechs in all my wildest dreams. It speaks volumes . . . enough that it has already soured my feelings about buying this pin and I will never forget all the vitriol from you and others about us crybabies who voiced our disagreement about it. Enough where I will never buy another pin from you no matter how tempting the title is.

I have been cussed and discussed, attacked and insulted over this issue on this forum to the point I will forever look at my MMr and have bitter memories over all these exchanges. You seem to have a very shallow and stubborn mind when it comes to trying to see what your customers are saying. I am your ideal customer. I have the desire and money to continue buying.

Since you and everyone else keep saying these thing are so cheap you can just buy them yourself, you could have easily tossed one inside the cabinet after seeing all the discussion BECAUSE probably 90% of these pins were sold stateside and you would have pleased a HUGE majority.

Your last insulting post took me over the top. I see who you are and I'm "ONE and DONE"! I am finished buying from PPS.

#5185 5 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Why don't you guys create a separate "were enraged over the no coin mechs" so the discussion here can remain about updates and other things regarding MMR.

This is only tangentiality about coin mechs. The real issue is how PPS handles issues that may be seen as negative. That is just as important as any update regarding game production.

This site is full of similar posts concerning issues with Stern and JJP in threads dedicated to their games. Why should PPS issues be treated any differently?

#5186 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

This is the best response EVER and sums it all up very succinctly!!!
Rick, I don't know you . . . you may be one of the grandest guys in the world, but this one issue of the coin mechs and how trivial you think it is, has set the tone for my future buying.
I bought a coin operated machine COMPLETE. While others are salivating over the trim, I could care less and would have been happy with whatever you chose and sent me a complete pin that we can slug coins in. I still think this is now NOT a complete pin. And I never expected leaving out the coin mechs in all my wildest dreams. It speaks volumes . . . enough that it has already soured my feelings about buying this pin and I will never forget all the vitriol from you and others about us crybabies who voiced our disagreement about it. Enough where I will never buy another pin from you no matter how tempting the title is.
I have been cussed and discussed, attacked and insulted over this issue on this forum to the point I will forever look at my MMr and have bitter memories over all these exchanges. You seem to have a very shallow and stubborn mind when it comes to trying to see what your customers are saying. I am your ideal customer. I have the desire and money to continue buying.
Since you and everyone else keep saying these thing are so cheap you can just buy them yourself, you could have easily tossed one inside the cabinet after seeing all the discussion BECAUSE probably 90% of these pins were sold stateside and you would have pleased a HUGE majority.
Your last insulting post took me over the top. I see who you are and I'm "ONE and DONE"! I am finished buying from PPS.

Whoa Mike!!
I understand your frustration. I have been on your side many times (you know that).
This may be a tad over the top. I agree, as I stated above with your frustration. It does leave a bitter feeling. But let's wait and see what the game actually offers before we think about never buying from PPS again. I am frustrated, but I for one sure hope he continues to remake the classics. This is the only way I will have a chance to own some of these seemingly rare titles at a "somewhat" affordable price.
I don't want to do ANYTHING to discourage Rick from doing what he is doing. We all make mistakes. It may be important to see how this is rectified in the future before we threaten an all-out boycott!!

26
#5187 5 years ago

Every time I open this thread my mind is blown. Seriously blown. I mean what the heck, wanting to cancel over a $20 mech that almost no one is going to use, never buying again, over and over for pages and pages? The truth is that 1000 people are just super fortunate that Rick is producing a game that 1 year ago was at least $12k to $13k for a decent restored one and $11k at a minimum. He's basically saved you $5k over what you would have had to spend to get your dream game. Yes, you are a customer, and you do have a right to voice concerns, but this is just ridiculous. I don't get it at all. Stern remade IM saving guys over $1k, you have 500 people in that thread just overjoyed despite the little issues. In here, you're saving $5k + getting extras like a shaker motor, and you have non-stop people moaning over a stupid coin mech. If somebody made my dream game brand new for $5k than I could have bought it last year I would be flipping out with excitement.

Rick is a good guy and has gone above and beyond to try and make things right, he's been on the board the entire time when he definitely didn't have to be. He's just trying to make the game for collectors while at the same time trying to make it worth his while, if all the different country coin mechs were going to cause him issues I believe him. He's not trying to rip anyone off, he's just trying to make sure people get the right stuff without causing a big disaster with games going the wrong place.

#5188 5 years ago

If PPS was legitimate and wanted to make things right, they would have PM'd the 5 people that "don't have the game on order" and offered them free coin mechs shipped with their ordered machine.

In fact, if PPS sends me free coins mechs in my accessory box, or via snail mail, I will write a glowing positive review of PPS on google, yelp, pinside, rgp, angies list and mr pinball.

Instead i'll be insulted by PPS that I didn't order the machine.

WTF

#5189 5 years ago

Did original MM have coin mechs?

#5190 5 years ago
Quoted from hollywood:

I have been on your side many times (you know that).

Yes, I know that and genuinely appreciate it!

I am not asking for a boycott or others to never buy pins from Rick. When he cannot fathom why so many think this is not a trivial issue and has not offered ANY alternative to rectify this shortcoming, this tells me he is one stubborn fellow. And I can be stubborn too.

I hope he has a lot of success so that all you guys who want to buy remakes can get your wish. I never considered the loss of me, just one customer, would make a difference in the future of PPS. I just don't want any part of it anymore. As someone else posted above, this one issue tells me more than I want to know about how he and/or PPS will handle FUTURE issues. There was not ONE attempt to proffer any solutions or even second-thinking this decision. He was not open to trying to see the other side. And I still can't see how complicated it would be to tag the pins with what coin mech is needed. Stern does it all the time. Since they are making this pin, I'm sure they would have said, "Oh . . . you lick that problem this way . . ."

Quoted from hardware:

I'd be willing to bet the lack of a coin mech bothers more people than some think. Some people don't like to mix it up on forums.

Quoted from jfh:

Given the surprising number of PMs I've received this afternoon, I suspect you are absolutely correct.

Same here. I thought I was in the minority and decided i'd never post on this topic again. But the flood of PM's thanking me for voicing this was overwhelming. These are the smart guys who don't want to have to argue back and forth openly on the forum. I see momentum forming.

#5191 5 years ago

Did I miss something? Last official word was that production was scheduled for "the last days in July." Where are people getting Q3 and Q4 from?

I'm looking at the official MMR blog on the Bay Area website.

Quoted from eavedesian:

3rd quarter is what he said so as long as he starts by Sept. 31 I'm good.

#5192 5 years ago

This.

Quoted from taylor34:

Every time I open this thread my mind is blown. Seriously blown. I mean what the heck, wanting to cancel over a $20 mech that almost no one is going to use, never buying again, over and over for pages and pages? The truth is that 1000 people are just super fortunate that Rick is producing a game that 1 year ago was at least $12k to $13k for a decent restored one and $11k at a minimum. He's basically saved you $5k over what you would have had to spend to get your dream game. Yes, you are a customer, and you do have a right to voice concerns, but this is just ridiculous. I don't get it at all. Stern remade IM saving guys over $1k, you have 500 people in that thread just overjoyed despite the little issues. In here, you're saving $5k + getting extras like a shaker motor, and you have non-stop people moaning over a stupid coin mech. If somebody made my dream game brand new for $5k than I could have bought it last year I would be flipping out with excitement.
Rick is a good guy and has gone above and beyond to try and make things right, he's been on the board the entire time when he definitely didn't have to be. He's just trying to make the game for collectors while at the same time trying to make it worth his while, if all the different country coin mechs were going to cause him issues I believe him. He's not trying to rip anyone off, he's just trying to make sure people get the right stuff without causing a big disaster with games going the wrong place.

#5193 5 years ago

I only check back - skim to see if Rick has posted and if there are shots of MM on the production line yet.

16
#5194 5 years ago

I'm not sure if everyone read the part where I have deeply discounted mechs. The decision was made by Chicago Gaming for the mechs, and that is the way it is. We will have them (metal ones) pretty cheap. I can understand this is inconvenience for a few as we believe that this is a very small % of people who really will need them.

rick

#5195 5 years ago

I have an MMR and AMH on order - my first two pre-orders. I use to get exited when I saw a bunch of activity on the two treads thinking it meant the games were getting closer to showing up on my driveway. The AMH thread has turned into what is the next Spooky Pin brainstorming session ( which is great but do it in a new thread) and this has turned into coin mech world.

I think Rick is under estimating the potential loss of customer goodwill and the compound effect of multiple changes to the original perception that an LE would be special with double clear coat and real brass trim. This is probably feeding the emotions on the coin mech. Personally, I appreciate the added LEDs and color DMD, and Rick's gesture in offering discounted mechs, but give no value to the ply wood, painted bottom. Going on about the coin mechs seems like wasted energy versus the fun and excitement of getting this pin. But I will think harder about jumping on the next LE remake for top $.

#5196 5 years ago

Will it come with balls, or should I order some extras?

#5197 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

I'm not sure if everyone read the part where I have deeply discounted mechs.

I did, as I suspect most others did. But offering deeply discounted mechs doesn't address the issue of how/when the announcement was made and ignores the fact that anyone paying $8k for a new pinball game shouldn't have to pay a penny more for coin mechs.

Quoted from PPS:

The decision was made by Chicago Gaming for the mechs, and that is the way it is.

Bullsh*t.

PPS contracted CG to make the machine, not the other way around. If you spec mechs, then mechs come with the game.

I really can't believe you are now trying to blame your contractor for your poor planning/mistake/cost cutting move/whatever it is.

Quoted from PPS:

We will have them (metal ones) pretty cheap. I can understand this is inconvenience for a few as we believe that this is a very small % of people who really will need them.

You know very well that's not the issue.

#5198 5 years ago

It's the shipping of those discounted mechs to Canada that will be tough to swallow.

-4
#5199 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

I'm not sure if everyone read the part where I have deeply discounted mechs. The decision was made by Chicago Gaming for the mechs, and that is the way it is. We will have them (metal ones) pretty cheap. I can understand this is inconvenience for a few as we believe that this is a very small % of people who really will need them.
rick

this is so absurd. the people complaining, as far as I can tell, aren't even going to put them on route -- and that's the minority of complainers who are actually buying the game. they are just being crybabies for the sake of having something to complain about. it's the most insane display of stubborn pointless whining I've seen in a long time.

#5200 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

the people complaining, as far as I can tell, aren't even going to put them on route

So, do route operators have a right to complain about this?

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