Imho must agree with slate, the insert facets gather too much light, as an similar example the word "heart" on the POTC trunk is unreadable just bright red LEDs, but if the "heart" plastic is removed and lettering painted on the back side with white acrilyc the letters are very easy to read.

It's obvious that they know a batch of these playfields have defects in the printing. I'm not sure I care if this diffuser solution works. The playfields that need them will always be branded as defects. Completely unacceptable to me as a buyer of an $8k product. Why do they refuse to do the right thing and just replace these playfields.
Why on earth would I purchase their next game if I don't know if mine will be inferior to the next one on the line and I know that the issue won't be handled properly?

Sooooo, you're saying that it's not the inconsistent printing (that I have and others as well) that is the issue, but it is a problem with the LED's and inserts that are identical on each machine that is causing issues with a certain batch of playfields?

Bwaahaha. You're not wasting your breath, you've been holding it for too long.

your issue may be fixed with dimming of the LEDs and diffusers inserted under your inserts but that may not be a fix for those with thin ink. I appreciate your effort on getting the word out about the proposed solutions to one problem but I think this thread got confused as to what issue CGC was trying to address.

It seems like quite a few owners do have play fields with the screen printing issues based upon the posts I have seen here on Pinside.

Arguing with other MMR owners about an issue that they have that you don't seems more of the troll/bashing move than anything.

Exactly, it works for you, arguing with others that a solution that works for you will work for them is pointless when they have a different issue.

So why don't you open a ticket with CG and get an answer from them? Once you get an answer you can open up your own thread and go from there....

Is this Doug from CGC?

I'm trolling? You don't have a <edited>clue what trolling is. I'm discussing a defect in MY playfield and how I don't think CGC is handling it properly. If you can't handle a discussion about the issue, don't start a <edited>thread about it.

There is no reason to back black ink with white. Just do the black properly. WMS managed to produce hundreds of thousands of games without any transparent black ink. My Dr. Who has a big banana insert at the bottom for ballsaves with SECOND CHANCE written on it in just black. You can't see through that text even with a pair of 906 flashers going crazy underneath. This is 100% a process and QC issue; there is no need to reinvent playfield production over CGC's mistake.

The reason the old inserts looked "frosted" is that the crappy Diamondplate coating that Williams used was milky.

I wonder how many will take CGC up on that offer? Doesn't do the European folks much good, but a few domestic buyers rolling up with games might finally get through to them.

Guys, stop speaking logically or Slate will accuse you of being a troll.

Even if true, that is still a "process" that worked well and garnered no complaints back in the 90's when they produced all the WPC games. Back in those crazy, carefree days the goal seemed to be just to make lit, readable inserts for pinball. It wasn't until recently that folks decided those inserts could double as searchlights...

I already posted what CGC said they were going to do. Trying to get out front of it so I don't have to open a ticket regarding this issue.

I've had a ticket open with CGC and have gotten the same responses.

Fact is, they HAVE sent a couple customers new playfields. This diffuser solution seems to me just a way to save the company $. If I or anyone else should ever decide to sell their MMr that has improper ink, you damn well know that this will be the first thing asked about and it will devalue those games.

CGC needs to handle this the right way and to me, there is only one right way to do it.

Thank you for posting this.

Dealing with CGC seems to be too much of a hassle. I am going to pass on their product and won't make any further posts on the topic.

I hope all of the owners realize a favorable outcome with their defective inserts.

I hope that the diffuser does work well. But even if it does it won't and can't possibly look as good as those with the thicker more opaque printing who don't need a diffuser or to dim their LEDs.

So I will still have a seconds quality playfield with cover ups that mask the issue to some degree.

This will affect my resale value as any quality control issue would.

I don't appreciate anyone telling me that this diffuser is a total fix or that I don't have a problem or that I should not complain.

I also hope that the development of a diffuser will not FURTHER delay the release of the software update and colour update that we were told were finished months ago.

It's true.

Ask anyone who has ever seen a 20 year old Diamondplate playfield.

We never complained about our old cars being painted with lacquer back in the day, but we sure like our Basecoat/Clearcoat car paints of today better.

Modern clearcoats are longer wearing and clearer, so the colors really pop, and the inserts are crystal clear.

CLOUDY-DIAMONDPLATE_(resized).jpg

Yes, now they are so clear, you can't even read the text!

Isn't that exactly what OP is stating the problem is?

Actually, you CAN see the jeweling on Vid's pic if you look closely. It appears that playfield has seen lots of play and the clear is starting to delaminate from the insert, in addition to needing a cleaning badly. Notice how the black is still completely opaque...

Using your cargument we wouldn't like our new, modern clearcoats if it meant you couldn't see out the windshield due to glare off the hood, or maybe a better example is if you can't read the gauges because the dash lights are now too bright shining through a clearer piece of plastic. I don't know, I don't do carguments well.

BTW - I'm not saying you are wrong and if every MMR PF had this issue it would be a better cargument, er argument, but unless some of them have cloudy clear that makes the text more readable it really is somewhat irrelevant.

cloudy-afm_(resized).jpg

Here again, you can see that the jeweling is almost completely obscured by the Diamondplate.

Again, no clear is delaminating from the inserts.

Since that is the case, let's talk about how inconsistent CGC has been when addressing this issue with different owners who's playfield's have identical insert issues. Because, in reality, different owners who have open tickets with CGC have been given wildly different "updates". Apparently Some owner's have been offered playfields at cost, others have been offered free color upgrades and some, it would seem, have been given replacement playfields.

Everyone else is waiting on plastic inserts and a software fix which, by the way, I was told directly from CGC will not include the ability to adjust the brightness of the LED's. It will only dim them.

The real issue that I have with CGC is the inconsistency with which they are addressing these tickets. Those users who are recieving replacement playfields will have the future value of their machine protected while everyone else will take a hit.

Here is what it looks like when the Diamondplate delmainates from the insert.

In the playfield restoration biz, we call it "ghosting".

delamination_(resized).jpg

Why would you want to see the jeweling anyways??? I'd rather be able to read the insert when it's lit.

Blame Steve Ritchie.

Inserts used to be opaque or clear without any jeweling, until 1980, and the Black Knight.

That is what I was thinking as well. That's like say "eww, look at that swimsuit model's eyes, I can see the beautiful green but I can't see to the back of her eye socket...". Isn't the point the text, and then secondarily to be able to tell whether it's lit or not? It's only been in the last 10 or so years this goal of "retina searing" has crept into a simple playfield indicator...

That would be catastrophic delamination, where the clear has completely come free. Your first pic shows small bits of white in the clear, that's tiny pockets of delamination (which eventually will become catastrophic if the game continues to be played w/o any remediation being done).

I'm with Schudel.. this whole 'frosting' bit is a red herring. You can see the jeweling clearly on original inserts when the insert is lit, and none of this has to do with the fact the ink on CGC playfields just isn't thick enough. My Dr. Who SECOND CHANCE has no jeweling... hell, I can see the filaments of the 906s underneath when they go off. That black SECOND CHANCE text on the insert is still as opaque as can be.

Look below - jeweling is evident, yet no light bleed at all. Notice how the black is thick enough it actually forms a slight ridge (as seen by the highlight/shadows circled in green). This is how playfields were screened back then - enough ink to get the job done right, the first time.

mmm_(resized).png

This is in direct conflict with what I was told by Doug Skor at CG. When he told me about the software fix, I specifically asked if it would be a user changeable setting and he stated that the hardware in the MMr would not allow for this setting to be changed. He further stated that the issue had been addressed in game number two and the hardware was redesigned to allow for user defined LED brightness.

How could you possibly know this for fact?

Please point me in the direction of where they have stated this over and over. I can't find a single instance of this being publicly stated by anyone and CG.

+1. I've spoken with them directly a few times and that offer was never brought up. I don't know where he is getting his information from.

The Black is the last color to be screened, so it often stands proud on older playfields.

On modern Stern/CPR playfields, with their thicker clearcoatings, the ink layers tend to get buried; but sometimes you can make an edge out in the right light.

-

CG may have had a bad batch of black ink, they may have accidentally used too fine of a screen, or.......who knows?

Since CG makes the playfields for Stern, one would think that a systematic problem would have already reared it's head.

Not trying to stir the pot....
I am still waiting for my MMRLE to arrive. I was in email contact with Katie from JJP today and she informed me that mine was delayed because of a playfield issue that CGC was working through. I know it's been said that only a small number of games have been affected, but Katie told me that the issue has been "resolved" and games should begin shipping again soon.
Granted, she may have been being merely diplomatic to a customer that has waited two years, or she really was in the know.
Either way, I will let you guys know what state mine arrives in (thick ink, diffusers), and let's hope everything gets made properly.
Either way, let's do our best to enjoy our games and hope things rectify in the long run!

Kyle

If nothing has ever been installed on the playfield (and thus it's still flat), conceivably, CG could run any defective ones through the press again for an additional hit of black.

afm2_(resized).jpg

Here you can see that modern clearcoats are crystal clear.

The colors pop and the insert jeweling shows through beautifully, even when unlit.

I'm calling BS. No one looks at a swimsuit model's eyes!

Slate are you sponsored by CGC? most of your posts in this thread do nothing but upset those with lightly printed inserts.

Where are all these posts from CGC that say we can return for a refund I have been watching and not seen one?
Seeing as you seem to have knowledge of the inner workings of CGC will they pay for the shipping cost of mine from Australia back to them?

Anyone remember the pre MMR days, when it was said that MM owners were "ruining the hobby" with their elitist attitudes, trying to keep prices high, etc.? Such simpler times.

Actually the clear is the same, the milky or opaque is the specialty coating Williams used before screening the playfield it was hard as a rock like a membrane and that also stopped dimpling we get on modern playfields today

This is what I had also heard from another playfield restoration expert when they explained why I couldn't regain that frosted look over one of my damaged inserts.

Yeah, I heard it was a coating that went on after the barrel sanding, before the screening process. Whatever it was, I like it better than the crystal clear insert look that all modern day playfield manufacturers use. It made reading the inisert text super easy, whether the insert was lit or not.

some try sandblasting the insert tooling to make the back of the facets cloudy or milky,

Metal is harder than wood. All play fields dimple.

Or spray this on the underside for a less abrasive solution:

fg_(resized).jpg

Those of us in the wood-processing industries call that "wood sealer".

If the wood is not sealed, the natural porosity of the fibers would absorb the future layers of ink and clearcoat unevenly.

That is why on sections of an old playfield that are just "clear wood", you can remove the topcoat with alcohol, but the sealer coat is a SOB to remove.

But they all dimple, right?

Only if they are made of wood.

2049250b476721868529b308954c8bae6c47c979_(resized).jpg