ouch
(Topic ID: 136653)
Linked Games
Medieval Madness
Williams, 1997-
Medieval Madness (Remake - LE)
Chicago Gaming Co., 2015
-
Medieval Madness (Remake - Standard)
Chicago Gaming Co., 2015
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Quoted from Aurich:I'm bored with remakes. Bring on the 2.0 games, at least there's some original thinking there. Too many cool new games coming out to want to buy something that's already been done.
yup
7 months later
This should be free, oh wait... It's already paid for in the $8,000.00 usd price tag.
It wasn't free. IF they charge for it, it's like paying a gas tax for state roads to be built/maintained then paying a toll tax to drive on them. Just rub that salt in more...
Quoted from Kkuoppamaki:I hope it's going to be free, or at least moderately priced. However, I have a bad feeling it's going to be at least $300
They had to hire a person to do the code, and it's been like a year in the making. Also, not everyone will buy the upgrade so assuming generous 80% penetration rate at $100 it would only generate $80k which probably will not cover the development and other costs.
Hopefully I'll be proven wrong when the details are announced, but for one my glass is half empty
$8,000.00 usd * 2,000 pins = $16,000,000.00 usd.
The coder/artist have been paid for already
Quoted from Pinballs:My understanding is that the colour upgrade is software v 2.0 and chip (PIC is I assume a chip and not a board?). No new DMD needed. There should be an announcement 'soon' but I have no other information.
A slight lateral I'd be grateful for help with- my gold side rails on MMR are a little scratched and chipped. What would the panel recommend for polishing scratches and touching up chips (that extend to the metal) on powder-coated side-rails? What is the colour code for the 'gold' colour (in case I could get it coated locally)? How easily can side rails be re-powder coated or replaced (and cost)?
I have emailed CGC...
Thanks guys.
Did they come scratched out of the box ?
Quoted from Rat:There has been some information posted on the PPS forum. I won't copy and paste it here as they want to keep their forum a walled garden and protected from the nasty customers here.
Can't say I'm happy about what has been related and I guess it will lead to even further delays. Anyway hopefully all will be revealed this week so at least we will know what we are in for, or not for those who decide against.
Can you state it, using different words?
Quoted from Pimp77:Yeah, mine was clean. That is dirty. Doesn't matter though as you can't see it.
Hey, that's not fair...
I didn't get dirt with mine 
No-dirt-gate !!
1 week later
1 week later
1 month later
1 week later
1 week later
Quoted from EricHadley:NEWS!!! $399+S&H and $199+S&H for LE owners! I'm in! Thanks Rick and Doug for the amazing MMR and now COLOR!
you come across as a serious fake account
Quoted from EricHadley:If you want to PM me I'll give you my phone number and we can talk about it
even more creepy.
Quoted from EricHadley:Not really, just tired of all the BS on here.......I'm a serious pinball fan, thrilled with my MMR and I'm willing to talk to any of you about it. Seems like there is a lot of hate on here and I don't know why
says the new guy dishing out down votes and apparently has no back story on this 3 year saga the rest of us have been on.
Quoted from ulmpharmd:What information do we email to them Rick to ensure a smooth transaction?
photographs of checks being mailed to them 
Quoted from EricHadley:I pre-paid for a LE in 2014 and waited. It was worth the wait. This whole forum (pinside) is filled with whiners....It's annoying, but I believe in the hobby and I want to support the manufactures to keep it alive. So if you don't like it then go away.
so, then you "do know why".
Quoted from Magic_Mike:So, don't buy one....problem solved!
To upgrade a WMS MM, a Color DMD will run you double that price!
Were you led to believe that you were getting it for free???
Quoted from flynnibus:When running on common pcs... A bit more difficult to do when running on a less common setup your usual hackers don't care about. Most bypasses are hacking the software and it's checks, not actually emulating the security.
completely incorrect on every point.
Quoted from jar155:If people didn't have to have money down for so long, it would almost, almost be acceptable to ask for $400 more out of buyers. But seriously, $400, or even $200, is past the point of excessive. Take nothing away from the visuals, they look great, but the only people who will happily pay for it are blinded by a false sense of loyalty. Most buyers are probably going to do so somewhat grudgingly, and that's not the best feeling to foster with your customers.
or wait for the free software patch
Quoted from flynnibus:Prove it
You arent going to find a generic 'defeats all dongles of this type' binary to run on your beagle board on some torrent. Or find some generic 'load this on a usb key' and run any locked app.
Defeats of popular ones like ilok require running software on the client machine... Which makes it app and platform dependent.
keep googling...
Quoted from Biv:I just hope that you "let us copy that" guys realize that there are cheap digital protection systems out there, that are no longer defeatable.
They are already used successfully in the pc gaming industry and even the best hacking teams declared that it's impossible to crack the games using them.
Nope. Not true.
Security is perception, not reality.
Quoted from ronaldvg:This is exactly making my point. Thank you.
I think the only thing where we disagree on is the term code update. Do you think that all the high resolution drawings were already in the Williams rom or do you think they had to redraw every frame. I think the latter.
Paying a couple of high quality artists to click color pixels is very cheap labor, sometimes it can even be had next to free. Especially for a chance to work in the game industry (insert drooling artist pic).
Keep in mind, these "artists" didn't even need to translate requirements into scene concepts, or draw out the original concepts into outlines, or click on pixels for the final/completed (monochromatic) shaded scenes. The hard work was already done years ago. They just had to color within the lines.
It's sad, but true. Don't over-value what you think they may or may not have paid to get the pixel colors selected.
Quoted from Buzz:If you pay for the update now,do you still have to wait 2 years till you receive it, while others in your 2 year wait will order it last week and already receive it. Or has that business plan been changed???
the people who pay/order last will get their security chip mailed to them first. just like the pins. duhhh
Quoted from pintechev:You might find this video interesting:
» YouTube video
Security isn't about being unbreakable; it's about making it incredibly, incredibly inconvenient to do so.
Marc
and hackers like challenges
i'm still surprised the MMRLE came with playfield glass and balls. Both could have been up-sold separately for a profit and shipped at a later date. Think of all the hard work it takes to bid-out, buy, receive, store, unpack, quality inspect, repack, apply shipping labels, arrange shipping pickup, meet shipping company during pickup, ensure loading, and tracking glass & balls left the building. Surely that time & cost was not built into the original $8000.00 USD budget. How they're still in business is just amazeballs.
Quoted from flynnibus:It was never part of the budget at the start. It's why they had no answers for years
how do you actually "know" what was in their budget and what was not?
did you create or work on their budget?
has a copy of their budget been provided to you?
or are you just guessing & stating as fact?
what's the matter whackybrakke, don't like facts?
tell us about your professional experience funding, hiring, establishing & managing creative process, & working with artists in the game industry to prove those factual statements wrong...
or are you violating Pinside policy by dishing out down-votes for no reason?
so much negativity. wonder why?
Quoted from Rarehero:I've been looking forward to it since I bought my MMr in '13 with its included color LCD display
+1
Quoted from flynnibus:To be part of the budget... That would assume you know you intend on doing it.
1. complex, large (even small), & experienced budget creation should involve "Contingency".
2. are you saying they knew they would not include coin mechs from day 1? they didn't "advertise" that as a missing feature from the beginning when taking orders & money. or did that change later?
Quoted from flynnibus:Color dots was not part of the initial launch plan.
Again, how do "you" "know" this as fact?
Quoted from flynnibus:It's why it wasn't advertised as a feature (included or not).
Really? Companies that advertise a complex product must list every single thing in the advertising? Car commercials would run for hours to do that. That statement doesn't make practical since at all. Again, they also didn't advertise coin mechs as missing when taking orders & money at the beginning of the advertising & sales waves.
Quoted from flynnibus:It's why Rick had no answers to its inclusion in the project or not when asked. It's why they had no answers at all until they got around to deciding what to do... And then decided to go bigger as a value added feature to be sold.
Prove it.
Quoted from flynnibus:This is the same company that thought they'd build it all in house.... Then couldn't get stern to start production after multiple attempts because their funnel was so screwed up... The same company that couldn't even get organized enough to address the simple coin mech issue.
And you're going with the evil mastermind conspiracy angle that they knew all along they were going to do high rez dots, budgeted for it from the start, then hid it from Rick, then even after all their disasters... Had a feature that was already paid for... And still decided to charge $200 for it?
So the color display that was "in" the budget was just an accident? Doesn't make any sense.
Quoted from flynnibus:You are mental.
Maybe true... but:
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy, more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.
Quoted from flynnibus:Maybe they thought they'd do something in the future... But budgeted as part of the initial build?? Even if they did, all prior plans probably got thrown away when they were over a year later and had to contract out all assembly.
You've migrated to using the phrase "maybe" now and putting question marks ("??") after your statements. That's interesting.
Quoted from flynnibus:The budget was blown long long ago.
How do you know?
A project can be off schedule and not over budget.
Also, a project with significant profit, and/or contingency, built into the budget can bare longer project durations.
PPS has other sources of income and can stop drawing from the MMR/LE project revenue as needed.
CGC has other sources of income and can stop drawing from the MMR/LE project revenue as needed.
Meaning, both those parties can draw from other revenue sources during MMR/LE project delays instead of consuming MMR/LE project revenue to maintain staff and other project fixed costs such as facilities. So again, a delay in the project may not even need to draw from revenue to support business costs during the delays. They can just be delays without any or much of budget impact at all.
Quoted from flynnibus:Any project that is over its schedule by more than 4x... And people are fighting about what was included initially?? Haha
There is a reason cgc were being penny pinchers way back at the coin mech saga... And it wasn't about production line complexity
Not spending money doesn't mean it is not available to be spent.
It often means preservation of profits which is the purpose of for-profit companies.
Quoted from Reality_Studio:I'm not whackybrakke, but I was a video game programmer for 14 years before switching to the adult industry, including working on the old 90's game Full Tilt Pinball 2 (I coded the super hero table). I can tell you first hand that artist work, aside from being the most underappreciated effort of the industry, is not cheap labor. Back when I was doing it budgets were split maybe 50/50 between tech (programmers, etc) and creative (artists, etc) but nowadays that's closer to 25% tech and 75% creative. A pinball dmd of course isn't as involved, but it isn't free/cheap labor to get it done. Or look at it this way, if labor was all cheap and free then why are people outsourcing it to other countries?
congrats on working in the game & adult industry for so many years.
try nearly 27 years in the game industry, running hundreds of projects per year with 1000's of staff & 100's of vendors all over the world.
coloring pre-drawn pixels is cheap if you know what you're doing. if you don't, you grossly overpaid someone to color in the lines already drawn for you.
your 50/50 to 25/75 tech/art budget allocations above include entire creative process. and who knows how well those were allocated...
note: there are also no need for concept artists, illustrators, 3d modelers, riggers, 3d animators, 3d special effects artists, physics artists, etc... This is 2d texture coloring of already black/white frames.
in this case, as stated before, the following already existed on the creative/art side:
1. game play rules & concepts
2. art visual style guide (as seen in the resulting original art)
3. art animation style guide (as seen in the resulting original art)
4. art story boards (reviews, feedback, revisions)
5. art concept illustrations (reviews, feedback, revisions)
6. art detailed illustration (reviews, feedback, revisions)
7. art pixel drawn frame by frame storyboards (reviews, feedback, revisions)
8. art pixel monochromatic coloring of each & every frame (reviews, feedback, revisions).
9. Quality assurance & art revisions with entire game design & game play
----
so now... all the above is done & no longer needed in budget.
what do we need to do now?
1. color style guide (reviews, feedback, revisions) = creative direction
2. color proof of concepts for some (already pixel drawn) key frames (reviews, feedback, revisions) = creative direction
3. color all frames based on agreed to style guide & key frame approvals (reviews, feedback, revisions) = brute force labor
4. Quality assurance & art revisions with entire game design & game play
5. menu code changes & memory address flag changes to flag use of color frames instead of original monochrome frames.
for example:
COLFLAG EQU $20000001
STA COLFLAG
CMP FLAGUSECOL
BNE MONOCHROME
6. hardware dongle selection & code changes for attempted security technique to charge more money.
7. logistics for original buyers to request, purchase, & ship dongles with per-machine encryption (maybe based on machine ID# & provided email address of buyer). insert false sense of security 
Quoted from Reality_Studio:Well I hope they fail, because if they succeed in making it easy for people to steal digital work then we may never see another such nicely redrawn display in pinball. I mean why bother if it will all just get stolen. That would really suck.
At the end of the day it's their product and they are entitled to charge for it whatever they want. I don't understand why people constantly feel entitled to everything for free and want to go steal it when they can't get it free. The MMr product is a monochrome pinball machine with a color upgrade option. They made it, they determine the pricing model, that's their prerogative. Now like I previously said, if your paperwork says the color upgrade is free then yes they are in the wrong for charging for it. But if that's not the case and people are just assuming it was going to be free based on what someone said in a youtube video somewhere, then in the future you probably don't want to base your purchases on that.
i hope it doesn't happen too. but...
please note: kracked software has not stopped investment in new & innovative software, art production or music.
also, my "paperwork" when order placed & money paid did NOT say coin mechs would not be included. you're statement is not consistent with those companies' decisions and actions.
Quoted from flynnibus:Contingency is not the same thing as budgeted. Contingency by definition is for unexpected expenses or variations. And contingency would have already been stretched by the two year delay and complete change in manufacturing.
On the coin mechs I bet CCG didn't include them in the bom from the start... Knowing they were selling to home buyers... And I bet Rick just didn't even know (not thinking to check prior) and got caught with his pants down after the fact.
Cries for advertising that or not and trying to compare that with the color dots is just being facetious. Coin mechs are simple interchangeable commercial parts of a game (like a power cable). Color dots are a huge marketable industry differentiating feature.Because the LAUNCH is history and was a public event.... And color dots, and or reworked art, we're not part of it. Even after expo, Rick explicitly said the game would be monochrome.
He alluded to future plans for color (when asked about colordmd) but there were no answers at the time.. Only stating
"Next up would be the colorization, which will be done and just working on the approach for the art and the timing, etc ..."
If it were to be part of the initial product release... It wouldn't be 'next' and timing would at least have a deadline.
The problem was at the time, everyone though Rick was in the drivers seat, and were taking the optimistic view from his comments... Instead of what he was actually saying.
Color display is the largest differentiator in the industry right now. It's the most expensive mainstream bolt on mod in the hobby. You don't think they would have wanted to make a point about that at the launch event??? Or in the months afterwards? They held onto this info for two years for what, In your opinion?
Let's not forget, when asked Rick said the game had to look and play original for the IP angles at the time as well... Criticizing projects that had altered games...Noting wms was not happy about it.
If high res art was already in the plan and budgeted... Don't you think Rick would have answered differently?
From Rick...Redoing all the art in the game's display doesn't fall under 'other little things'
They aren't going to advertise the inclusion of the single most expensive bolt on mod in the hobby?? They advertised the gam to be an exact look and play copy of the original with build quality upgrades. Inclusion of colordmd features or redone art would have been MAJOR features and represented significant value to the purchase.
They were not, and for Almost two years!!! No specifics were available.
Note, even Doug from CGC said Rick was in the dark on the details of it, and the work was funded by CGC
From aug 2015you think that large of an item was always in the per game fiscal model and Rick just.... Missed it?
It's all right in the original MMR thread.
A lcd was in the spec.... color lcds are more commodity than single color in that size
It's called 'addressing all the possible outcomes' and showing even if true... It still doesn't get to where you think it is.
No one plans contingencies that reflect the project running 5x over. You tell the idiot their plan clearly has no confidence if they can't narrow it down more. Planning for 5x delays and project lengths means severely overcharging to cover that expense UP FRONT. Again, this is the team that couldn't even manage deadlines within a two week window... And your arguing they accurately forecasted all of this, and intentionally told their customers and business partner a date that was so low in confidence they had PLANNED for a 5x run Over?
Does.not.compute.
And there is no revenue stream to draw from... They took a bunch of money, not some recurring sales stream.The clowns didn't just go dark for two years. They were spending time, capital, and opex for over 3yeras on a project that was supposed to be generating revenue 6months after announcement. You think stern just lets them keep all kinds of materials over there for free?? Ha
dude, you're mental 
Quoted from flynnibus:Answer this... You've said how trivial this work is... And you believe they are masterminds that have properly budgeted for a project that ran many multiples over in length...
Yet it still took them more than 10 months to get this trivial work done. Resolve that one....
lack of focus & experience.
i can get something done in 3 months or 3 years.
ps. never said they are masterminds or properly budgeted.
Quoted from HOOKED:Has anyone unlocked it yet? I have an le and 199 seems ok not great but worth it imo.
depends on how you define "unlocked" 
Quoted from o-din:I guess I have to wonder if this super deal of $199 is only available to the original LE owners. According to the terms, CGC must verify the owner matches the serial #.
i was shipped the wrong trim packaged MMR/LE. so wonder if I've got someone else's machine & they have mine, meaning neither will/can purchase.
Quoted from o-din:If not, you can still opt for the deluxe $399 version.
i'd probably get shipped the wrong colors on the SD card too 
Quoted from Baiter:You describe the ColorDMD business model, who also happens to charge $400 per game. The MMr colorization is a 4x resolution artwork upgrade for that or less. If you can produce the technology and hire artists to produce a similar artwork upgrade for all DMD games at less than the $400 price point, please do, we'll all be waiting to send you money for it.
There was never a promise for free upgrade... the closest was this: there was no initial pricing, and so everyone hoped that meant free, but that's not a "nudge nudge wink wink" thing.
wish i had the time, it would be fun. but i also don't have interest in competing with Randy 
note: colorDMD includes a large piece of hardware & cable.
Quoted from Mike_J:Wow, you have one heck of a distributor. The folks at CGC and PPS should take a lesson from them.
they probably just fired that distributor 
Quoted from pintechev:Ha! I got more of the software engineer vibe from you based on your use of semicolons. Or an English professor, but my money is on software.
{
how did you;
ever;
guess that?;
}
Quoted from o-din:Unless you want that stout "original owner only" warranty they are providing...
title of warranty.... "You're on your own".
Quoted from John_I:Amazing someone can post something like this and not at least get a thread eject.
Have you read the warranty? Or do you just like going around posting threats at people, tough guy?
This is a separately purchased hardware & software mod that is clearly not part of the original purchased product.
Quoted from peaceboy666:Question for anyone in america.What do u think USPS would charge to ship a microsd from chicago to australia, with tracking?then maybe add$5 for pps to pack the item. thank you
I've mailed for about $15-$40 usd, just based on past game parts sent to friends there. That included the box. Tracking is no problem, it's adding little extras like insurance, required signature, etc. It takes weeks to get there. Think the last item took almost 4 weeks.
Hope that helps
Quoted from John_I:Amazing someone can post something like this and not at least get a thread eject.
Amazing people can post for sale ads that are not in the required pinside market, or does that just apply to some people? Are we here to follow the "rules" mr wonderful?
Quoted from John_I:So you didn't post something maliciously not true? Then you didn't go back and correct it when PPS confirmed that it was BS? This is public forum and not all of us have the troll decoder ring, so we take statements at face value.
so let me get this right...
1. you didn't read the warranty.
2. you selectively choose people to attack (while other explicit violations are right in front of you) when you think they are violating your interpretation of pinside rules.
just making sure we're on the same page here.
Quoted from lordloss:Why are people preordering color? It doesn't make any sense. Wait until Dec when chicago gaming is actually ready to ship it.
get it before they sell out. i hear yellow is in limited supply
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:Top Ten Reasons why:
1)2+ years late shipping(some still waiting)
2)Worst NIB sound of all time
3)DMD tearing
4)Date and Time gate
5)Coinmech gate
6)THE BIG ONE Insertgate
7)Diffuser(You're kidding right?)30 bucks for a plastic sheet....wow...just....wow
8)1+ years to patch software to fix:time and date,yeah they fucked that up ,DMD :shifty:tearing and sound,sort of
9)Bad customer service regarding proprietary parts,solutions, fixes.Does not respond in a timely fashions to their OWN system of "ticket"for service.
10)AND FINALLY......COLOR DMD COSTS EXTRA!!!!!!
have the sound issues in the code been fixed yet (aside from having to replace the speakers) ?
Quoted from DeeGor:I wrote a script to increase all of the call out sounds and submitted it to CGC a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully there will be another update soon with those fixes.
you sir, are Da Man
Thank you for your efforts and contribution to the community.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:People simply cannot help themselves when it comes to "pre-buying." Whether it's presale buying shitty concert tickets now when better ones will be available later, or pre-ordering something like a $400 "color DMD update" or the latest Katy Perry album, there's just something innate in the consumer subconscious that is satisfied by having SOMETHING in hand, when in fact they don't actually have anything. Spending the money and securing a "spot" satisfies the need to immediate perceived need to possess something, while at the same time lending weight to the fantasy of a brave new future with limitless potential - allowing the mind to wander to exotic and exciting places.
As consumers, we have more instant gratification options than ever and as such we've created a need to be instantly gratified. There's a rush of consumer endorphins that floods the mind of someone who places something they can't actually have no into their cart and hits submit.
The fact is though, someone who has pre-ordered a color DMD update, and someone like me who has not nor will ever buy it, both "own" exactly the same thing tangible thing. But I didn't pay $400 for it.
i bet Katy Perry doesn't release un-level audio into the market as Final Product
ps. who's Katy Perry?
Quoted from paynemic:You guys are hilarious. How old are you? I've yet to wade into the silliness of pinside, but I guess I just did.
I preordered. Because I want the color and I don't care how long it takes. And I don't have a political statement to make. I love my mmr. Sorry if you're not happy with yours.
party pooper
while we're waiting on colorization...
i'm thinking of adding more colorization to the playfield experience.
ala... gold mirror blades.
concern is, lots of folks have said that the playfield is really tight next to the insides of the lower cabinet.
has anyone considered sanding down the top of the left & right sides about 1/8" so the mirror blades could sink in further away from the playfield to help prevent scratches when lifting/lowering the playfield ?
Quoted from gliebig:My mirror blades fit it no problem. No scratching when I lift the playfield.
cool thanks
Quoted from sparechange1974:I have them on mine, seems to be plenty of room all things considered. I chose not to use the screws and just used double sided tape. Gold looks incredible btw!
ok, thanks. i bought the gold mirror blades the year the pin got announced. time to put them on.
anyone recommend using any of those gold plated/polished balls ? i've heard they get discolored after a while.
Quoted from Grizlyrig:Having a conscience would prevent that!
Mike
Good thing politicians aren't programmers
Quoted from glasairpilot:I just sold 4 out of my 6 remaining machines due to downsizing homes with the intent of maybe adding on later for another game room or converting my building across the street to a game room.
After being on pinside for just over a year I believe I will simply get out of the hobby and sell the other two also. I am tired of the negativity. It is my observation that nobody is happy with any machine regardless of the quality. I am tired of trying to learn about mods, a machine, or whatever only to hear constant complaining making it impossibly to find valuable information. It is a sickness like I have seen in no other hobby. I know people that have bought new airplanes and had a $75k engine fail in a couple years with no help from the manufacturer and they do not complain like people do on a pinball machine for ink on a playfield. It is nuts.
if i was out buying airplanes, i wouldn't give a "flip" about $75k engine failures either. ...just sayin'
Quoted from teekee:Many of them actually believed and continue to believe everything you write... you're lucky much of your customer base is made up of:
you said you wouldn't post any of our private photos together 
Quoted from glasairpilot:New plane $500k and engine $75k. New pinball $8k and playfield $1k. Not following your logic.
dispensable income at the $500,000.00 + range is a totally different tier of "concerns" than those with a few thousand dollars and/or a few hundred dollars. totally different...
Quoted from glasairpilot:Anyone paying $8k for a toy has disposable income that far exceeds the average person. If you are buying an $8k toy and can't handle a few small problems due to value concerns on a hand made product then I would suggest you are probably over your head on the purchase. These machines are prone to problems whether they are "perfect" from the factory or not. I have yet to buy a new Stern or PPS machine that I was unhappy with. I sold my MMR for what I paid and have lost very little money on most of my Sterns and have made a little money on a few as well. It's a pinball machine.
wow, thanks for schooling me on how NIB pinball machines show up 
so, if someone can save up & spend $8000 on a pinball machine, then they can buy a $500,000.00 airplane. totally get your perspective now.
ps. you really drifted off there and just started rambling on multiple topics. Is A.D.D. common for people who buy $500,000.00 airplanes and who give people sh!t about their $8,000 pinball machine they saved up for?
Let them eat cake.
Quoted from John_I:Those who have been in the hobby for more than ten years know that these are the best of times and we are damn lucky to have amazing products like this available. Not to mention translites, plastic sets, playfields, cab decals, flipper kits, etc, etc, etc.
I think I'm damn lucky to have such a great community to share this usually isolated pleasure with. The ol lady certainly isn't joining in the reindeer games
just wondering...
is Pinside getting paid a commission for each one of these $200 and $400 products sold as advertised here?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-ad-rules-on-the-pinside-forum-1
hehehe... not being negative
just think this could be a win for Pinside to help fund hosting costs & keep them employed to focus on 100% Pinside development/etc.
that could be like a $1,000 to $2,000 donation to Pinside depending on volume of units sold between $200/LE & $400/SE's.
Quoted from brucipher:Doesn't this website ultimately generate a ton of sales for Stern, JJP, PPS/CGC, etc.? Sure, not all of them are on here blatantly advertising, but there is indirect advertising (for instance, every time a new Stern game is announced on here). I know I personally get the bulk of my pinball news from this site (i.e. learning about new Stern releases). Do you think Stern should pay a cut for every NIB game they sell which someone learned about via a thread here?
Once again, in the end, it is really none of our business.
then stop commenting about it, right?
Quoted from pintechev:Rules only apply to classified ads. This does not apply to Stern/PPS/CGC/Jersey Jack type announcments. I PM'd Robin and asked.
Can we please get back to playing pinball?
Marc
wow. Thanks for sharing Marc. So would you say this is correct below?
so if i start a company, then I can:
1. place ads in threads (not using the marketplace) (include any pins, parts, mods, accessories, anything),
2. don't have to put Ads in the Marketplace,
3. don't have to pay fees to Pinside.
how cool is that.
only individual people, like the rest of y'all, will have to follow the Marketplace rules & pay fees.
Quoted from nosro:Labnip: I realize that you are just asking, but your remark seems a bit combative to me. I'm sure it is unintentional. Your question seems appropriate for a Moderator Feedback or Website thread if you are truly interested in knowing the answer.
In the meantime, it would be nice to discuss the Colorization for at least one page without getting derailed.
Hi nosro,
Thank you for joining in.
At the moment... The title of this Thread is the following:
→ "MMr - Colorization Pricing And Availability...Finally!"
here's a screen shot:
↓ Screen_Shot_2016-08-05_at_12.02.44_PM_(resized).png
I'm responding to Marc's helpful post about the Pricing part of this Topic.
Pricing is (usually) based on Cost & Profit.
I'm just wondering if the cost of paying the Pinside fees is built into the price of each product sold?
I don't think Pinside can answer that question, unless Pinside helps set the Price of this product.
What do you think?
ps. Apologies in advance if asking clear & direct questions is considered combative. Just trying to better understand.
wonder if:
1. the "new art" is there, but not getting rendered, or
2. the "new art" was missed accidentally, so it is default rendering the original monochrome art, or
3. they intentionally chose to skip that frame(s) to add "new art" ?
Quoted from John_I:Did planetary start this thread? So if I start a thread to talk about someone else's product, they should be forced to pay a fee?
if they start it, it won't have to be in the marketplace
Do you own an MMR or MMRLE ?
Have you preordered the latest Colorization DMD with security chip ?
Frustrated with missing color frames ?
Well, folks we have the newest PPS/CGC mod ready and available for your purchase.
This amazing new mod has been in the works for 6 months by a team of professional and expensive gaming artists.
Introducing, the Color Transition Sticks !
Yes, that's right folks. These Color Transition Sticks mod are cutting edge artwork that you or your friends can hold up over your DMD during those pesty non-colorized transition scenes. Each Color Transition Stick is clearly labeled on the back to let you know when to put each Color Transition Stick in front of your newly purchased MMR/LE & Colorization kit so you can enjoy those remaining few scenes in the amazing new colorized art they were always meant to be experienced as.
We, well actually not us, are manufacturing batches of these beautiful Color Transition Sticks right now & we are now able to accept your pre-payments. We're told by the 3rd party manufacturing provider that they will have these ready in just a few weeks, so hurry and pay now so you can get ahold of your personalized collection of Color Transition Sticks.
PRICING:
For MMRLE "original" owners, you pay $300 for the mod.
For MMRLE "non-original" owners (we don't care for you), you pay $600 for the mod.
For MMR (non LE) "original" owners, you pay $500 for the mod.
For MMR (non LE) "non-original" owners, (we really don't care for you the most), you pay $800 for the mod.
For any MMR/LE owners who have ever said anything negative or questioned anything about PPS or CGC, you pay $2500.
For any MMR/LE owners who any fan-boy pinsider perceived you saying anything negative or questioned anything about PPS or CGC, you pay $3000.
For any MMR/LE owners who have been kicked out of the PPS Forum, you pay $4000 extra.
For any MMR/LE owners who've said they would have paid any price for the prior MMR/LE Colorization mod, you pay $10,000 (we love you long time).
But wait, that's not all, if you pre-order now, we promise not to make your kit with used ice-cream sticks, which we've received some Quality Control team feedback that they are stickier than expected.
Pre-order with confidence.
Quoted from paynemic:The colored dots are fantastic. Sure, there's some little differences from expected. I can live with them and feel I paid a fair price for an awesome mod.
You should have paid more
Quoted from Crash:I read this whole post out loud in the typical enthuisastic overbearing American TV ad narrator style. Don't worry, I'm the only one here right now.
Offer not valid in Vermont
Quoted from o-din:I remember when I was a newbie. I thought everything was amazing. What's amazing is what a few years in this hobby can do to your outlook on things.
Yeppers
I was over the top wow'd by this project years ago when it got announced.
But when Rick started threatening people in the community with canceling their orders if they shared their order # with anyone, then threatened people if they posted any info on Pinside that was on his own secret forum, and then began removing parts from the BOM, then blamed CGC for any issues, then didn't include a goodie bag as part of the package, then... then... Then... I just became more skeptical & sarcastic about the whole experience.
I can like having an MMRLE (even though he shipped me the Wrong trim package) and other mods that other people come up with, and still be critical of the products.
I don't think anyone has to be "on one side" or the other. I choose to be both
Rick has definitely made this the most negative pinball experience I've ever gone though after owning over 20 pins. I think that's the biggest let down. Not really the product (that Williams created), but the buying experience that has been a disaster. I just wonder if the license owners realize this?
I was excited about this color Mod, but not the pricing of it, and now to find out it is being sold as incomplete, but customers weren't informed that it is not done or any status that it ever will be. Arrg.
Quoted from pugface:What's even more amazing is what a few years in the industry can do to your outlook on 'hobbyists'. I love the fact that people, new or long-timers can find joy in the hobby. I will never understand what satisfaction people get being involved in any hobby that makes them bitter. If a particular game, mod, or upgrade isn't for you, don't buy it. That doesn't seem to work on some. If you won't be happy until everyone sees things your way, agrees with you, and only purchases what you think is acceptable, then you will never be happy.
At some point, I get it. It's like politics or sports fans - I'm always going to think that the Ravens suck and the Steelers are awesome. But I don't spend my time on Ravens message boards trying to tell them what to think.
You can be a customer of a product & (AND) also be critical of the Product & Service related to the purchase.
We do not have to be one or the other. That's a very binary thought process.
A TV is a source of entertainment.
As a product customer of a TV, people can be vocal of their experience in the quality of the TV, the buying experience of the TV and the support/service after purchase, right? I guess there's people out there jumping up & down about their great new TV and slamming anyone that has a TV with defects or a negative buying experience... Or negative support experience. Isn't it all part of the total experience, and wouldn't a motivated product & service company be interested in this feedback along with other customers left largely on their own to trouble shoot problems?
Quoted from pugface:Not the first time I've been accused of a binary thought process...
Absolutely, you can be as vocal as you want, whether you own the product or not. Go nuts! But I think what would be more helpful in a forum is a review of the product as it stands vs the price it is offered at, comparing similar offerings. Also keep in mind that the quality of X, the buying experience of X and the support/service of X are most likely three different companies...
True, but this thread title is also about "Pricing" 
Quoted from o-din:Are you sure the special deal for LE owners will still be available when that happens?
I dunno. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Could imagine PPS ending the LE price really soon and moving everyone up to $400 or more.
We've had multiple people claim they'll pay any price already.
Quoted from pintechev:It's not incomplete.
Marc
...and the earth is flat. אוי ואבוי
1 . Super Skill Shot = not colored (all white...would be fine if it was the same colors as Skill Shot)
2 . Multiball Madness Champion (during gameplay) = not colored
3 . Battle for the Kingdom scores = not colored
4 . Merlin's Magic = when "Destroy Castle Gate" is a choice, the text is cut off by the HD scroll graphics.
5 . Save the Children = This might be subjective, but this seems unfinished. It's the same as the old dots, and only two colors. I was really hoping to see this sequence with the HD art. If this isn't possible due to all the moving imagery, more than 2 colors would be appreciated
6 . There are a few transitions that are clunky = for example: When you get "Joust Victory", there's an image of the knight on the right of the screen - it briefly changes from the HD art to the old dots before going to the next screen. see pic.
MMRLE-color-err-1_(resized).jpg
#wheresthemissingcolorframes
Quoted from HOOKED:Ordered my kit last Sunday along with 3d translite...shipped today. Seems I just dont have the issues others do. I have had three warranty issues...all resolved within a week. Looking forward to the next title release.
how much $ have you made selling mods on the MMR/LE ?
Quoted from TaylorVA:Thats a weird question. Wtf does that have to do with anything?
you tell me.
what's with your continuous over-emotional profanity acronyms? some form of threat or just an inability to communicate effectively?
Quoted from TaylorVA:You find that threatening?
Does someone expressing a positive experience not fit in with your narrative?
Wow, you wrote a sentence without using profanity. mission accomplished.
So have you connected the dots on why I asked Hooked (who makes some of the best mods on the planet) that question in a public forum after his public post?
Quoted from TaylorVA:I was raised by sailors.
Not sure what your point was, came off as a weird jab as if his lack of complaining somehow benefited his mod business. While my parents may not have curbed my tongue they did teach me to never ask what a person makes.
well... i guess, in the end, i believe myself and others in the community deserve good quality & complete products that we spend money on. having that as a foundation, hopefully explains most my comments in this thread (well, aside from the pricing of this Mod).
The person/user "Hooked" is an amazing guy who creates some the very best mods on the planet, that turn these pinball machines in to even more entertaining experiences than usually perceived by their original designers/manufactures.
But, right now there's 34,732 Pinsider Accounts (hopefully most are valid, who knows how many are spammers or kaneda duplicates )
Of those, 3,315 are listed as being logged-in right now. Now logged-in doesn't (i don't think) mean logged-on (using the site right now).
Let's say maybe 10% are concurrently online right now, so about 330.
Now we could also speculate there's some much larger # who do not have accounts but who reach & read Pinside. Very common for this to be a really large number. Anywhere from 10X to 100X depending on the site/etc...
So maybe it looks something like this (make large assumptions here):
3,300 online users during a 24 hour period that are not logged on (330 active now * 10X)
Each day, many of those are actually different people. People looking to learn, looking to shop, looking for perspective(s), and may eventually be looking to buy, learn how to get support from the companies, looking for training (to support themselves), or getting someone else to provide service. That's a lot of folks over time, days, weeks, months, years.
A lot of those people don't know who anyone on here is, even by their username. So generally, all posts/opinions can often look even-weighted (unless they are just wildly irrational).
Hooked (at least in my mind), is more than just someone who has an MMR/LE and looking to buy more in the future.
He's a designer & manufacturer of some of the absolute best pinball mods on the planet. And I don't think most of the casual users that come across pinside, this thread & these posts, may realize that.
When we're making comments that there's an "incomplete" nature to this mod that is for sale & Hooked says he hasn't had any problems that weren't resolved quickly and is looking forward to more from PPS/CGC. There's definitely more behind that comment. Sure, he wants more (like the rest of us) to enjoy them for what they are, and hopefully wants them to be both 1. Complete and 2. of Quality, but he also makes money selling mods. And he is able to make more money, for the more of these products that are in the market, which means a larger potential customer base. I'm just not really sure what his comment/post had to do with the Colorization completeness & quality that we're addressing, and for casual (or ad-hoc) readers, they may not make that connection either.
Just saying...
Quoted from herg:Sure. That's why in this case, Hooked has a "Hooked on Pinball" qualifier by his avatar. Anyone who cares can easily see his affiliation.....
and that helps, if you realize it's there & know what it means.
Quoted from lordloss:Someone needs to make a "wheres the code at, rick" shirt.
think it's with the coin mechs & UK power cords
hehehe....
#wheresthemissingcolorframes
wow mrgregb123, I guess you only support public posts about MMR/LE playfield clear chipping ?
Quoted from mrgregb123:On mine the hole the ball falls into after entering the castle has clear coat chips at the back end...the side that the ball rarely reaches...after 200 plays. Defect in mfg. Little disappointed but this hole is invisible to the player so at least it's this hole with the defect.
Quoted from mrgregb123:I meant the back as in the opposite side that the ball enters the hole (left side if you're facing the game), not the back of the game itself. The ball has to get hammered to reach the other end - the hole is quite wide and catches it well before it reaches that part. Compared to the multiball lock entrance which gets hammered regularly and on mine is still pristine. And if it wasn't pristine, I'd at best call it a bad clear coat job. No game with a proper clear, I don't care who makes it, should have chips 200 games in. Like I said, the chipping affects a part of the game nobody ever sees, so I don't care and I can only guess it was like that at shipping.
Quoted from slydog43:OMG, played a few games and I have to chime in and say its AMAZINE! so much better than I thought it would be. I kept looking at the DMD throughout my games just to watch the new graphics. Its like going from classic 8-bit graphics to an Oculus Rift.
Goggles sold separately 
Quoted from John_I:Or you haven't recorded and gone through it frame by frame for a reason to complain.
Enjoy your MMr with color!! I am jealous. Never thought I would want MM back after I sold mine 8 or 10 years ago, but I do now!
looking at a playfield that has ghosted inserts (defects), is looking at 1 frame. why should anyone complain about a frame, just because it's persistent.
looking at an animation of several frames that are defective is no different. why should anyone complain about those defects?
it's because they are ALL part of the multiple expensive products that were purchased.
A movie produced & sold by a corporation has many frames. If lots of frames in that movie look like dog spit (defective), I guess you get mad at people pointing that out too, eh?
sounds like you're just looking for a reason to complain about people identifying defects in products that are for sale.
Why don't you go hop in all those Ghostbuster threads and tell everyone who spent thousands of their dollars on pinball machines with ghosting inserts & chipping clear to go screw themselves, stop complaining & just play their pinball machines. That's exactly what you're doing right here.
Every time I see one of your idiotic jabs at consumers...
office-space-michael-bolton_(resized).png
Quoted from flynnibus:Crash, that is a great breakdown.. but some of the comments (like about outlines, shadow box, etc).. couldn't some of these choices be intentional for readability?
I think the example of the Catapult Slam score is an example.. where the text can at times bleed into the art behind it. Choices like different backgrounds or outlines can help with problems like that. Especially when text is changing frequently (like the hurry up countdowns). Same thing with the peasant revolt 2 screenshot (and the outline castle vs art).
I appreciate the effort that went into that post.. but I gotta say watching the video vs the disection... I don't agree with most of the picking.
I completely disagree with your post & in no way even see the value in it.
How about you go tell that to all the people with ghosting & chipping ghostbuster pin playfields.
Just tell them after they post lots of pics of their obvious defects,
"I gotta say... I just don't agree with most of the picking of you people. I mean, obviously the rest of the playfield is just fine. Couldn't some of those ghosting inserts and clear chip choices be intentional. Heck, lots of them are there NIB."
Quoted from flynnibus:Like your post? Go back to just down voting everything.
The work that matters here is how the product is consumed in real time... If the detail is only visible in freeze frame, then it's of less significance. That's a reality, not simply discrediting concerns. Go back under your rock
that's not nice at all.
post reported.
"rule #1, be nice!"
It's a shame you lack the cognitive skills to have a discussion without being compelled to insult people as some method of trying to make your point or share information with a community.
Quoted from mamemaster:GUYS IF COLOR ISSUES BOTHER YOU DON'T BUY IT. Holy cow you guys are just off the rails.
I'll give you $150 shipped and buy yours now to whomever is unhappy.
OMG #2- I just noted the posts with frame/frame analysis- holy!!- are these the zapruter films??? FRAME 313! PROOF!
(God lord Rick- you've made mistakes but these guys are nuts).I've done my own investigation- the two biggest complainers in this thread- one owns a '97 MM and the other doesn't own any pins!
yeah... no one should ever point out anything about a pin or modification product ever. Especially on the Internet, on Pinside, or in this thread, specifically about this particular $200 & $400 USD up-sell. 
In fact, no one should ever post anything text, photo, video, audio, etc... related to anything that might not be 100% perfect about a product for sale to consumers around the world by corporations.
You should all just do what you're told & not have any opinion, especially about anything factual that you spend your hard earned money on.
...and if you do communicate any factual information about products you spend your money on, you will be insulted by strangers on the Internet. You've been warned you sheep.
Quoted from mamemaster:Says the guy who owns an original MM.....
I can own a product AND have a critical opinion about it as well.
Clearly some can not comprehend that thought process.
By the way, it's an MMRLE Gold (and I ordered Black).
I've also worked behind the scenes to get these common pin related defects identified & information shared to help get them repaired in the manufacturing process so future batches were even better.
response to updated post
Quoted from mamemaster:Says the guy who owns an original MM.....maybe color envy?
Quoted from erak:You forgot import taxes. I had to pay $43 extra on top of that when it got to my door based on the $200 U.S. value posted on the color chip.
So $300 CDN for the LE color.
yikes... is it cheaper if i mailed it to you from US, or is it that way from any shipping entity in the US to you?
i've mailed stuff to friends in Australia to help them cut costs.
Quoted from erak:I would be cheaper if it was mailed with the value not stated on the package to be $200 U.S. it was $261 CDN after paying exchange. Then $50 CDN shipping.Then I had to pay our import tax based on the declared value of $200 U.S = $261 CDN. After exchange. So another $43.88 in tax.
So actually... $354.88 CDN total.
If it's priced declaired at Standard $400 U.S. it would be $633.08 total CDN after shipping and taxes
Yikes. Indeed!
wow. gotcha.
well, a little chip & some pliers in a box shouldn't look like much to customs if they open it, so maybe $10 shipping value + insurance
Quoted from PPS:yes, of course because lying on customs forms which is illegal is the right thing to do ...
Value is perception, not lying.
What you value at $400, someone else may value at less.
What's the value of a new car when it drives off the lot?
A gallon of gas sold by a gas station at a busy corner has a higher value than the same company selling a gallon of gas a mile away at a slow intersection. Same gallon of gas, but different value & sold by the exact same company. What's the value then? What is it's resell value after?
Ever tried reselling a diamond? what's it's value? what is the "legal" value if you had to mail it?
If I told my 'ol lady what this mod is (in full detail), she wouldn't give me $5.00 for it, even though I value it greatly. What's it's value then, and to who/m?
If I load a piece of $5m software on the $2 chip, do I have to register the value to mail at $5m? seriously? no... of course not. it's a $2 chip, some ear tweezers, foam & a plastic case. That's about $10 of value for shipping.
Didn't this Colorization software cost about $100,000.00 USD to make? So, that is it's Value right. Shouldn't that be the amount put on the international shipping?
If I buy a share of stock 10 years ago at $5 & mail it to Canada today, what value do I put on it? What I paid, or what it's estimated to be worth now? If I checked it's value before driving to the post office and it was $200, then when I get to post office 2 hours later and it's value on the stock market shot up to $400 right when I got there & mailed it, but didn't know it's value changed, did I break the law? ...and did it make a sound if there was no one there to hear it ?
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:So basically if Rick says "black" your gonna say "white", correct?
QSS
i like to think more in terms of color than just black & white
Come on man... So do you believe customers should not discuss products they purchase and also pay to have shipped to them?
What exactly is your point?
Quoted from Eryeal:Talk about taking it to an extreme! Customs declaration is simply the price paid for the item. It isn't "perception". What you are saying is as ridiculous as arguing with the car dealer on sales tax because once you drive the car off the lot the value goes down and thus you should only have to pay sales tax on the reduced value, not what you bought it for. If you buy a laptop from another country, the value is the price you paid for it - not the "value" after you opened it and it became used. You are making a very silly argument. As much as you may dislike PPS - they have to abide by the law, and they need to put the price paid for the item as it's declared value. It may be OK for you to do a lower valuation on something you sell and get it through - but company's do not take such risks. Tax fraud and evasion is a serious offense.
It's not extreme at all.
If someone in canada buy's a product from a US company that ships from the US.
And that product gets shipped to someone in the US.
And the person in the US did NOT pay for the product.
Now, that US person (not a company) is going to ship that product from a location in the US to a friend in Canada.
That US person can put any value/price on that product for shipping. They didn't pay for it.
Also, you've made an "extreme" leap of non-factual statements.
Exactly where did I post that PPS should not abide the law? ? ? You're going off the deep-end.
=====
Here's a cheesy example:
1. Bob (in canada) buys a $50 harddrive from a company (in the US) and has them load $1000 worth of pictures of fish on the harddrive and has the US company mail it to me in the US as a gag gift for xmas. So Bob spent $1050 + shipping to send this silly thing to me.
2. I get the harddrive, plug it in, and laugh at this harddrive full of fish pictures. Also, I have no idea what (if at all) he paid for fish pictures or shipping, but I can clearly look up the price of this model harddrive on the Internet.
3. 6 months later, I decide to send this harddrive to Bob (in canada) from the US.
4. What value do you list on the shipping?
=====
Here's another example:
1. I spend 2 years and $40,000,000 USD building a custom software product.
2. I need to send a physical copy (ie: on a flash drive) to a person in Canada from the US to do some review on it.
3. What value do you list on the shipping? I paid $40,000,000 USD.
...and I'm not trying to be a smart-azz on either of these 2 above examples, I honestly don't know. Does someone here know ?
Quoted from Eors:I received my colour update gear today...took under 5 minutes to install (had already updated do I got a bonus mini sd card)
Who cares what it cost...it is certainly worth it
ummm... currently, this thread topic is titled "MMr - Colorization Pricing And Availability...Finally!"
so, if you don't care, why are you here posting about your lack of opinion on the cost (price)?
Ok... not sure if any of this helps, but I was curious.
Was on the road just a bit ago & stopped at local shipping company and posed some of these questions.
Here's the feedback I got.
Q1. If I spend $40,000,000 on building some software & I put it on a $5 flash drive & mail it Canada, what do I list on the price for customs form?
A1. The price of the $5 flash drive. He also asked, am I completely loosing all access to this software when shipping or is it a copy. I told him a copy. He said, definitely in the case that it's a copy, the price of the item being shipped is $5. He said, if it's my only copy of the software & I no longer have any possession of it, he "probably" thinks it's also $5, but wasn't 100% sure, but that's what he & everyone else would probably list it as. I thought that was a good question on his part.
Q2. If someone in Canada buys some software on a $5 flash drive from a US company & it is shipped to a person in the US. Then the person in the US later decides to ship it to a person in Canada, what do you list on the price for customs form?
A2. He said, you'd list it at $5. He said Customs doesn't care what's on the flash drive (unless it's "bad" stuff). If they open it up & see a $5 flash drive & that's what you listed it as, then they're going to be ok with it. He said, in this case it's really just a personal ethical decision, not a legal decision. He also said, if you didn't know what anyone paid for it, the decision is very easy, $5. He said, now that it's a second hand item, really who is to determine what it's worth other than the physical item (the flash drive).
He also said that there is a US $2500.00 special price/value boundary. So, if you're shipping something obviously over $2500.00 USD from the US to another country, that there's an additional online form you have to fill out & provide as part of the international shipping process (along with whatever the customs fees are for that item(s)).
He showed me this FedEx shipping form about max amounts that items can be listed as (in these methods of shipping). But he said, that's really about liability protection, not customs laws.
Note: this is a verbal conversation & is not based on research of US laws. Just thought it was interesting.
Quoted from brucipher:Wow, some of you people have WAY too much free time on your hands. Get a hobby...like playing (instead of bitching about) pinball!
Or posting about people posting
What a meta-waste
Quoted from EricHadley:This whole thread has become rediculous
clearly a sign of your intelligence & use of your valuable & limited time, specifically here?
Quoted from flynnibus:The 'ship it to a friend, and have them ship it to me' is NOT a way around customs and duties or impacting the declared value at all for duties and taxes. Who bought it is meaningless (except if trying to import as gifts, personal exemptions, etc -- not the topic here). Its the common trick used by people who are trying to AVOID the taxes because the personal mailing will be handled differently and they can try to pass things off as used goods vs new goods. It does not change the actual obligated value of the item regarding taxes and duties. The issue with commercial invoices is they will specify the actual value as paid - making it basically impossible to argue (as if you could anyway) the value should be less.
Lying on the customs declarations would lead to the vendor's packages being intercepted and ultimately impact their ability to sell into country.
Shipping things as an individual you have less at risk and worst case the receiver needs to pay the higher fees. Your USB stick example is more about 'what you can get away with' vs legal definition. If you shipped a $5000 piece of software in it's retail box.. its going to be identified as the $5000 piece of software. If you took the software, burned it to a DVD, labeled it 'home movies' and mailed it... technically it's still worth $5000.. but your shipping agent told you to mark it as zero value because they know customs isn't going to bother investigating a single DVD or USB key by looking what content is there, trying to figure out what it is. You would sneak under the radar.
But if you were a business, and shipped a palette full of DVDs all labeled 'home movies' and zero value... the scrutiny is going to be different.
I think some of the other variables in reducing shipping to someone out of the country, aside from customs price (even if you list it at the exact retail market price or more), would be choice of shipping company, packaging, speed & insurance. Companies will usually increase several of those costs to reduce risk of loss & having to resend (increasing their cost). Where an individual may be willing to accept lower shipping cost/insurance options if given the chance, so the cost can come down more.
I've had several friends ask me to buy things and ship to them at lower shipping costs/insurance, to cut $50-$100 off in their total costs. They tell me that the vendors won't give them other shipping/insurance options, and instead have their own mark-up on them &/or don't offer lower cost options.
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:I will only buy their next game if it's MMrr that corrects all of the problems with MMr.
since you'll have 2, can i buy your older MMR? ...hmmm but then i'll have 2.
Quoted from Eryeal:Let me clarify some of your examples:
...
A2: Again, you would first use the price the person in Canada paid for it. You are forgetting that aspect completely. If you were sending for free, then it would be a gift and tax/customs rules may change at that point depending on the country.
hi,
i'm not forgetting it.
it's just... i didn't pay for it & i'm not selling it to the person in Canada.
also, what about the case, where I don't know it's price (legitimately) ?
Quoted from Eryeal:Let me clarify some of your examples:
A1: Yes, that is correct. Because $40,000,000 is the R&D behind the item, not the actual value of the item. For instance, Microsoft may spend $20,000,000 on developing Microsoft Office 2020, but when someone orders a copy internationally, the value isn't declared at $20,000,000 - it's the cost the customer paid. In your example, if your customer paid you $40,000,000 - then yes, that would actually be required to be the declared value.
...
I totally agree with you on that scenario.
But what if I am not charging the person in Canada for it & i'm shipping a $5 usb stick with the software on it from the US to a fellow in Canada ?
(honestly... i don't know)
Quoted from Eryeal:There are many times with taxes that you have to approximate - it's not always black and white. As long as it makes logical sense, and is not artificially lower to avoid paying taxes, generally you will be fine. Also keep in mind insurance, which is only going to cover the declared value as well. It's perfectly reasonable to say - well I ordered an MMr color chip new for $200, and I'm now giving it to a friend to whom I will ship it, so I think it's worth $100 since it's used and there's no other way to gauge the price.
yeah... that's kind of what i'm guessing too.
Quoted from brucipher:How do you feel about people posting about posting about people posting?
Quoted from Eors:Be careful what you say...Labnip will tell you off for having an opinion
that's what public forums are for
i can't wait to install my new colorization.
original:
Quoted from PPS:I didn't say conference call ... put your big boy pants on and give me a call, would be a blast to talk to you especially if you were up to identify yourself!
part 1:
Quoted from PPS:I didn't say conference call ...
Why not? Put your big boy pants on and do a conference call with paying customers & potential new customers. It would be a blast to hear you talk about your products for sale. Didn't you say something like phones/technology have come a long way? No difference with how many people are on the phone, it's still a phone, right?
part 2:
Quoted from PPS:... put your big boy pants on...
That is unprofessional by insulting customers and is truly stunning & immature behavior on your part.
Also, that is a Pinside Rule violation. "Rule #1, Be Nice!"
Try saying that to my face at the next event, keyboard warrior.
part 3:
Quoted from PPS:...give me a call...
Why? I'm not asking any of the questions above. I currently do not have any open questions. I've just been stating facts. And strangely having to defend myself for stating facts.
part 4:
Quoted from PPS:...would be a blast to talk to you...
Feel free to provide an agenda for my review.
part 5:
Quoted from PPS:... especially if you were up to identify yourself!
Unsure how to interpret this statement. What does the use of the "!" mean? Does your EXCLAIMING statement mean any of the following or something else?
a ) You believe I live in fear of identifying myself just to you, and therefore you believe this statement will cause me to vanish (as you have tried to use fear, threats & other forms of negativity in the past with others, and found that to be a successful approach for you) ?
b ) You believe I live in fear of having my identity published here, and hope for similar results as item ( a ) above.
c ) You actually want to know who am I? (in an EXCLAIMING kind of way, weird)
d ) other?
====
Separately, you actually do know who I am. We've had email conversations in the past & I've even pointed you to threads I've created here on Pinside. I've also had several conversations with CGC to help them with making manufacturing improvements to help future pin customers of yours.
(contents edited by Mod team)
Quoted from PPS:I didn't say conference call ... put your big boy pants on and give me a call, would be a blast to talk to you especially if you were up to identify yourself!
you just lost a customer for life.
Quoted from netman63129:Personally I think MMR is awesome and the color makes it even more so. As a business owner, I can tell you that some customers are just not worth having. Some people will complain endlessly and there is no satisfying them, sort of like ex-wives lol. They just selfishly eat up everyone's time. The best thing to do is just tell them to take their business elsewhere. However it hard it may be, try not to stoop to their level.
as a business owner, do you sell incomplete or defective products (but not advertised as such) ?
Quoted from Kkuoppamaki:I love the colorization on mine, looks great! Still, if the minor issues get fixed that would be appreciated
Exactly what I've been trying to say
Quoted from netman63129:I wasn't specifically calling you out. I've noticed this sort of thing quite frequently in my short time on pinside. However, since you asked, I'm in technology and I can tell you that all software has bugs. In fact, the version of Windows that I am using right now has an estimated 50,000 bugs, yet it still is able to perform its function. It is unrealistic to expect Microsoft or any other company to fix them all. However, if you are unhappy with your purchase, you can always ask for your money back.
In my opinion, only very OCD-type people are bothered by small imperfections, which are everywhere...movies, music, phones, computers, cars, houses, anything made in China. Pinball is complicated. Let's face it, much less complicated machines often have more issues. The bottom line is that we now have the option to buy arguably the greatest pinball machine of all time, NIB, with upgraded tech, and at a fraction of the price of an original. Complaining about something that almost no one (including myself) would even notice, seems to be a waste of energy to me. Why not support the company and maybe we get additional similar opportunities in the future. Oh yeah, and I have no problem bringing an issue to everyone's attention, opening a service ticket, etc., with the hope of getting it fixed. After that, it is out of our hands and repeating the process ad nauseum doesn't help anyone.
thanks for sharing, and that's all interesting information... but the actual question was just...
as a business owner, do you sell incomplete or defective products (but not advertised as such) ?
Quoted from netman63129:I thought that my answer was implied but I'll be more specific. Yes, we sell software. Yes it works. Yes, it has bugs which are also known as defects. No, it is not advertised as perfect and no one expects it to be. My customers are professionals that understand how software works. Maybe you need some education regarding software development. I don't know you but speaking generally, if you go through life expecting perfection, then you will be disappointed most of the time. In addition, others will see you has unhappy, complaining, negative, etc., and probably shun you. Instead why not have realistic expectations? You'll be much happier with your purchases and have many more friends
great. thanks for the life advice. always appreciated it. but back to the topic at hand...
So, as a business owner, you do deliver products to your clients that have defects.
Next question.
When your clients identify and communicate defects (or incompleteness) about the products you deliver & they have paid for in-full, do you first tell them to put their big boy pants on?
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:I'm a custom home builder in a small town of 13,000 people. I have a top reputation and am always busy due to the high quality product I sell to my customers and the reputation I have built over 22 years. I don't think I have ever turned over a home to a customer where there wasn't a list of at least 10 defects in a house. These defects are for a variety of reasons. Some customers have even given me lists with 100's of "defects" which aren't actually defects, the customers where just very "anal" for lack of a better term.
The large majority of my customers are extremely reasonable but there are a few you just can't please. Everyone is different. My product sell for $500k to $3.8m so there's allot on the line for my customers.
Nothing in life is perfect, NOTHING! I'm not trying state that some concerns of the pinball community are not legitimate but defects exist in everything and where one customer may perceive something as unacceptable another customer may think the same thing is just fine. It just depends on the personality involved.
I personally love the new color upgrade for MMR and the game itself. Is the color upgrade perfect? No, but I hope they upgrade it and make it better and if they don't, I'll decide overtime if I'm ok with it. If I didn't like what was available knowing full well there were flaws in the color upgrade, I would have voted with my dollars and opted out of buying it. I'll do the same on the next remake. I'm never the first to buy anything. I always wait to see what the reviews are on a product and then I vote with my dollars. Just like what's happening with Ghost Busters, the new Ford GT350, the next Stern release,....... the next whatever.
QSS
hi, that's great.
Do you think it reasonable for customers to identify defects (at varying levels of severity) to:
1. inform a community of other buyers of the same products (& of course, each individual makes up their own mind how they measure or choose to have any concern about each),
2. inform a (or several) companies making the products,
3. track & help yourself, so when you receive the same product(s), you are better prepared to resolve issues (if possible) at location/home/etc, as they are not (or may not) be collectively well documented elsewhere.
?
Quoted from netman63129:Again, my customers are professionals, many of which work for Fortune 500 companies. They call support and open a ticket. Then they wait, sometimes for years, depending on the severity of the issue. If for some reason they are unhappy with support or believe their issue is more important, then they can call me directly to escalate it. My customers don't get on a message board and repeat and/or complain about the same issue ad nauseum. What is the point of that...Your mama told you that the squeaky wheel gets the grease? I'd call it being a nuisance. Why create unnecessary drama and stress in everyone's life? Follow the proper protocol and be done with it.
I appreciate the additional life advice and now understand your business-to-business (not business-to-consumer) support process.
However, the question was:
When your clients identify and communicate defects (or incompleteness) about the products you deliver & they have paid for in-full, do you first tell them to put their big boy pants on?
Quoted from netman63129:That comment was probably uncalled for. However, I haven't been in that situation and I don't know the whole story. Again, my customers follow protocol, which you seem unwilling to do. As I mentioned above, it's fine to point out an issue so everyone is aware of it. I'd just keep the criticism constructive and avoid the complaining
i totally agree.
also... i'm not sure why Rick (of PPS) wants me to call him, as (stated before), I don't have any outstanding/open questions for him.
I think ( ? ) he's thinking about other peoples' posts who had questions.
Quoted from netman63129:Well, I'm just looking back through this thread and Wow, you have a lot of negative posts on here. I'm curious how many of the 2340 posts in this thread are yours? I understand that you are trying to be funny or sarcastic but if I were you, I'd work on being a bit more sensitive to the people who's livelihood revolves around the product that you are constantly bashing. Yeah, the "big boy pants" might not be the best response but you do kind of deserve it :-p
I have a lot of posts about MMR/LE here too > https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mmr-nib-repair-kit
What do I deserve for those ?
Quoted from netman63129:I like it, very nice! How about a thumbs up? Certainly much more useful than this...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mmr-bad-news-on-colorization/page/43#post-3282262
:-p
ahhh... gotcha.
you don't like humor or sarcasm in community posts. i can get that. most people i spend days at work with have zero tolerance for humor. but, hopefully pinside isn't "work". maybe it has become that way. maybe people only want to read facts & opinions & nothing else ? maybe humor no longer has a place in the entertainment market or community?
btw... there's a lot of nuance within that post referencing actions over the past several years related to the buying experience for MMR/LE.
Quoted from nosro:@Labnip I am not sure how much of this can be attributed to what you consider sarcasm. Sarcasm can be trickier in written form than verbal form. That's why this guy was created:
Personally, I avoid sarcasm in forums. People who know me can attest to the fact that I am extremely sarcastic in person.
thought i put that on there & even made a custom one just related to that post
Quoted from o-din:I've got my big boy pants on, now what?
now you have to call Rick
Quoted from Manic:Hey don't feel bad my friend. "Big boy pants" can be hard to find.
The company themselves couldn't find any "big boy pants" available the ENTIRE time they continued to send out machines with the factory second PF's to their customers. They hid from this forum.
But then the PF issue was finally corrected and there was upgrade money to be made so they luckily "found a pair".
Of "big boy pants" that is (damn I DO like that saying though)
...and i'm on a diet.
putting big boy pants on is completely opposite of what i'm trying to do
Quoted from netman63129:I do like humor and sarcasm but some people get carried away or use it in a passive aggressive manner. Don't be one of those
is it passive aggressive, or is it humor in an attempt to cope with 3? years of of this buying experience?
i can't really tell, but you look fairly new here, and maybe didn't go through the same journey?
could you share your guidelines on what is and is not acceptable for us?
Quoted from nosro:Using this as an example, I really can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Maybe in a conversation it would be obvious, but I also don't know anyone who would talk like this in person, sarcasm or not.
Over and out.
we could send advanced written posts to him for review/revision/approval prior to posting
Quoted from netman63129:I agree, waiting three years after paying would suck. I'm curious why people do that...is there some advantage? I've been following MMR since it was announced but I saw no point in paying money in advance. Too many things can go wrong. I suppose that's the engineer in me. Anyway, I waited until they were shipping and ordered mine July 2015 and had it within a week. No major issues and support took care of a couple of minor issues without any hassle at all. The only thing missing was the color display and now I have that as well. I've modded it just the way I like and overall I am exceedingly satisfied
well... there was this giant demand build up in the market. people were starting to build their own with old & new parts.
when pps announced it, it was a limited 1000 LE's that were to be built. so like, everyone pounced to get one (or more).
then (was it like the next day?) pps announced they would make an unlimited number of non-LE's. that was a bit of a stinger to a lot of folks, who like have limited things. but, in the end, not the end of the world.
can't remember off the top of my head, but think they said they'd be shipping within a year. would have to go back and confirm that.
so, knowing there were so few originals to have, folks just held on for the ride. then during the ride, "things" kept getting announced that changed the situation a bit (which many folks weren't too happy about, but stuck with it), and then it took longer to make them (which most folks have generally come to expect) so that wasn't like the end of the world again, just l-o-n-g. note: i think the woz buyers waited even longer. But woz was a completely original design (not existing design, not existing code & not existing game specific parts).
hey Rick,
this guy could use your help buying it >
Quoted from vega:Thanks for the vidéo,
I m a happy MMR LE owner here in France and want to buy the high def color kit for it so I went on PPS webstore to order it at 199$ ( for MMR LE owners ) but when I Check out it tells me to write my states even if I say outside US, I have send 2 mails at PPS but no answer.
Does anybody overseas ordered it ?
Does anybody knows How to get it here in Europe with the spécial price for LE owners?
Quoted from vega:Thanks labnip for posting my question here, I was finally able to order the kit after à few Mail with Rick.
They charged me 70$ For the postage fees just for a little box Send to France. I order all my spare parts in US and never had so much postage. I hope that I won't have customs fees as well.
happy to help
customs seems almost random. not sure their method to inspect a mail item or not & then add an additional local fee to it.
i sent some free stuff to the good folks in EU making the minion pinball and they got hit with a nasty customs fee. It was a much bigger box than what PPS is using.
Quoted from ledge:no it doesnt. (not to australia anway)
small items, in smaller packages, can be sent priority, first class or whatever. you do have a 4lb limit on some options tho.
i doubt the chip would come close to 4lbs tho.
heavy art
1 month later
Quoted from NicToria:WE have not ordered our MMR LE chip yet... Can we buy one at the Chicago Pinball Expo next week...??? THX> Nick
they need to code it to work on your specific machine. maybe call PPS directly & see if they can get CGC to do in advance of you getting there. could save on a little shipping $ maybe if you could pick up from them there ? good idea to at least ask for...
Quoted from Rarehero:Doubt it...how does one machine differentiate itself from another? They just need your LE # so you can claim the LE price of $199.99...then they cross you off the list so no one can also claim to have your #.
Oh, interesting.
I was under the impression they wouldn't function if swapped across From an LE pin to any other pin.
Someone should test this
3 weeks later
Quoted from Pin_Guy:FUSE-gate has ended...CGC finally responded to my trouble ticket (with the assistance of LTG) and they are sending me a new fuse. I was actually going to purchase one from Home Depot while I was there this last weekend but they only carry 1A, 2A, 3A, and 5A in that package, of course I need a 4A...story of my life.
might be a lot of MMR owners in your area of Des Moines
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