I know this is crazy talk, but maybe let Chicago announce the colorization project details and cost before making a decision?

What if it wasn't that expensive, and had cool features? And they said "hey, this turned into a bigger project than planned, we had to hire people to make it look this cool, and we're just charging to cover their time, since it wasn't part of our original build costs"?

I get that people are mad at Rick. He makes it easy.

But I just think we tend to mob up before we have the facts. I'd rather respond to real information, than get overly mad over a bunch of guesses.

The gameplay is too slow on my certificates of deposit and stocks. Rules are pretty bland as well.. talk about timing out modes

C'mon Aurich, this is pinside... you expect something different??

I will LMAO if/when CGC releases something really cool and all these folks start posting the TAKE MY MONEY pic...

Do you know the facts?

I think the point is that none of us know the facts. Everything's still up in the air until it's announced.

Aurich has already stated that he knows more.

"From what I've heard people may dig what they announce though. So I'd hang tight, see what they show, and the price, before grabbing the torches."

Yeah, I'm definitely guilty of taking some pot-shots at PPS.

I have a problem keeping my mouth shut when I disagree with something, which isn't helped by the fact that I love being a smart ass.

True story, in a meeting at work we were being chastised a little for the internal "brand" of my group losing favor with our sales department. Then when he tried to move to the next topic, the VP had trouble with his presentation and I promptly snapped: "Your brand sucks right now."

I don't have all the facts. And what little I do know isn't mine to share, because I know it sucks when someone leaks your ideas ahead of time.

It just seems reasonable to me to wait until there's an announcement, and then judge it. Maybe it will be a raw deal. And then I think it's legit to be mad. But maybe it's cool, and reasonable, and everyone can go "huh, I can get behind that, guess there was no reason to get worked up" and that will be that.

Truth is the original MM was just orange dots. This idea that it should be in color isn't really part of the spirit of the remake announcement. It might be a smart move to give it out free to LE owners. Or it might be that the business reality is that it needs to cost something. For all we know when they said "kit" it means new hardware too. I have no clue myself.

If it includes Nick Cage as the king I'M IN!

1694ac947f6a116e93fcbcf92e7480d1.gif

Then don't be a tease. You often post on Pinside about how you've heard something... Either post it or don't say anything.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If this thread hadn't been started without any information there wouldn't be a need to say anything.

This will be the case as soon as anyone sees what they have done!!! WOW

Which in itself is a very significant differentiator and advantage. If you can build stuff faster and for less money than your competitors... that is an advantage. Being able to develop faster and with a cheaper BOM is very much an advantage.

A COGs improvement that can easily be wiped out in the much more expensive category of software development and support costs. Saving $2 a board due to volume improvements at 3k units is only 6k dollars. That's barely 3 weeks of developer costs in savings... which means when you need to staff documentation, QA, and support... in perpetuity... your little 6k in savings doesn't sound so great. Never mind making it even easier for competitors to get to market.

You have nice lofty goals... that don't map into actually running a business. This isn't crowdsourcing innovation here.

PPS/CGC is depending on Stern to build their games! Stern's differentiator/advantage is their build/production facilities! If Stern considered MMr serious competition, do you think they'd agree to build their machines?? As long as they are building their machines, why not sell them your platform!

I'm curious, since your such an expert on product development, what products have you contributed to or built? I've helped build 4 successful "startup/tech" companies and pioneered software at the core of Apple's iOS system. I've never worked on a pinball platform (not lucrative enough) but getting more developers to use your platform is universal goodness...especially when your platform really isn't enabling a wildly better pinball experience. If SPIKE enabled a wildly better pinball experience, I would totally agree with Stern NOT licensing it.

Let me be clear on why I even give a hoot about this issue...as a consumer of a pinball products that routinely break, the fewer platforms, the better. One of the big turnoffs to remakes is the notion of trying to get custom parts 5 years down the road (when they are out of the business). If pinball machines weren't so long lived, the platform wouldn't be as big a deal.

Would things be different if Gary Stern had purchased the Bally/Williams IP? My guess is we would be on remake 3 by now. Wonder if it was ever considered.

This may, or maybe not, why MMr has been a slow build, Stern now has control of the opposition

I didn't think it was fine at Expo. I think it plays fine now. "Completely invalid" is a bit strong, but your observations are definitely out of date. I can't speak for Vid.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have a ton of respect for your opinions, and agree with you 99% of the time. Just feels like you're ranting on old evidence.

A companies ability to manufacture a product is directly related to their part suppliers. Pinball machines contain lots of parts. Because of Stern's volume (compared with other pinball companies), they have leverage with parts suppliers.

I have no idea why MMr has been a slow build...I just know many folks who have been frustrated by the delays.

Because Gary runs a factory... a factory he needs to keep running to make any money. He doesn't make any money designing pinballs.. he only makes money building and selling them. While he builds games for other people, he enjoys the healthier margin his games get vs the competitors.. AND collects his fees for assembly.. AND keeps his factory churning. What Stern will take on in contracting won't be arbitrary... Gary won't build the games that will undermine him.

Good for you.. but software product management is very different from hardware or hw+sw production. I don't need to whip out my johnson to support my statements.. but if head up to the bay area.. find the world's largest networking company... and you'll find my fingerprints in their products. I also have experience in contract manufacturing and close ties with consultants and production managers in contract manufacturing.

Let's be clear, you whipped out your johnson when you had the nerve to tell me my ideas "don't map into actually running a business". You are apparently an expert at "actually running a business", so I'll defer to you (the hardware maven)...

I would think one of the biggest pinball parts company with the B/W licence would have a little leverage on supply and cost
PPS knew 1000 MMle were to be built and what number of parts are required, they just didn't go.... lets run 100 MM and see if demand is there before we order more parts. QC on parts could be an issue?

yeah, it would go up.

Here is my question of the day:
Rick is obviously following this thread...

How come he never answers the questions on refunds?? Bigbossfan and myself have already said we contacted JJP and they are "waiting to hear from PPS"....
Well Rick, can I get a refund or no?

They licensed it.

That gave ops confidence that they could swap boards from the proven Bally system, and it gave Bally some extra cash.

I'm thinking about getting a refund myself.

Even though my black trim MMr is supposed to one of the first to ship, once JJP is given the go ahead, this wait, along w/ no communication is really starting to get my panties in a bunch.

Because this is not the place for that discussion.

I got my stainless form JJP. Katie was easy to deal with, always kept me in the loop. I bugged her once a month or so from about March on and them got the call mine was ready. All I can say is those on the fence about getting a refund man you are so close now. Once I hit the one year make I figured what the hell, mind as well see it through. I'm glad I did. I think my money was safer here then the stock market LOL. I agree 100% the communication from CGC and PPS is dodgy at best. Hopefully they learn a lot from this one. Keep people in the loop and for the most part they will understand. Anyways good luck to all regardless of what decision you make!

On topic as far as the color is concerned, I simply will wait and see what shakes out. Currently all we have is speculation and best guesses all that does to angry up the blood. My display is set to glorious orange and I'm really enjoying the opportunity to play this great title.

I would be pushed over the edge into picking up a MMr over MM if they actually reanimated the dots in a Don Bluth style and add a menu option to easily toggle between original and new.

I've played MMr and I'm not a big enough aficionado/expert to pick up on enough differences from the original, but updating the dots would be a material enough improvement.

For me, the real value in the remakes is in 2.0s. I'm totally in if they update the animations and create 2.0 rulesets for each game. Otherwise I'll just pick up the originals because they're cheaper and I don't mind tinkering around occasionally.

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Because Rick only answers questions that he cares about.

cRICKets…

I thought Stern bought the company that designed the Bally system, so they could just copy it since the company owned the design?

"WWPD"
"What Would Popadiuk Do"

+1

Sooooooooo true!

Stern did indeed license it, as part of the settlement of a lawsuit brought on by Bally against Stern Electronics/URL.

So licensed, but after the fact?

What waiting list?

Easier to ask forgiveness than permission

No, its not an opinion at all. Just like Metallik's observation that the prototype MMR at Expo played slower than his original MM was not an opinion. Both are statements of facts based on observations. The part you're overlooking is that people including myself are trying to tell him is that his observation of slowness doesn't hold true for all of the production MMRs out there. So why would I need to conclude that one is always faster than the other, when the point I'm making (and just about every other person in this thread) is that one is not significantly different than the other on average? Let's not forgot I'm not claiming that MMR is always faster than an original MM, I'm saying they're not slower, there's a difference.

Now as far as it being scientific, the support for the observations being accurate, and the conclusions made based upon them being valid, comes from the numerous similar observations made by many different people (and I'm not just talking about people that posted in this thread). That is exactly how science works. Its the same concept as a clinical trial. You may claim that a single observation is potentially inaccurate, but when you look at large sample set from many observers predominatnly having the same results, that forms a fairly certain conclusion. That's especially true when the point being refuted is that there's a noticable difference between the two. You can't logically defend that position by stating that people can't tell the speed of the game well enough to differentiate the two.

So it shouldn't be difficult to agree that there is sufficient evidence that MMR is not inherently slower playing than an original MM based on hardware, software, or manufacturing differences. Its going to vary from game to game, based on setup, exactly as it varied between each original MM to the next before MMR was ever a thing.

Now which version you like better is a matter of opinion. And guess what, my opinion is that I like the original MM better. Its mostly because its what I'm used to and the uncompressed audio sounds weird to me, plus it looks a little odd without the Williams logos. The speed of the game doesn't play into my opinion which I prefer much at all. However, that's not what was being debated, it was the speed the ball travels around the playfield from game to game comparatively between originals and remakes.

To everyone else - sorry for straying back off topic.

Based on this thread and everything else going down, I decided to ask for a refund from JJP as well. The response I got was interesting. I'd be curious to hear what others were told. Please feel free to message me privately.

That's how I thought it went down too. The ole sue and license.

Sorry not picking on you here but the argument on what's scientific and whats not is rediculous in this situation: collecting data from people who either put the money up for an MMR or didn't, is like a drug company supplying their own beta testers by the thousands and claiming their opinions are "scientific" and the drug works or a competitor drug company supplying their own army and scientifically releasing info the drug doesn't work! Take from either side what you want.

Isn't the set of "people who either put the money up for an MMR or didn't" all people? I mean I agree with what you're saying if you're looking at original MM owners versus MMR owners, but I think there are a lot of people like myself that own neither just saying there's not a significant differnece in gameplay (especially speed) between the two.

To use your example, wouldn't that be more like someone that isn't affiliated with either drug company saying both drugs seem to do exactly the same thing despite the claims of either company?

Your have an inherent misunderstanding of how scientific observation works. This is faster, or that is faster based on non measured observations is not science. If your are going to claim the game is faster or slower it can actually be measured. This isn't a medical pain scale of 1-10 where the patient decided what is what level.faster is an easily quantifiable and, importantly for science, repeatable. An uncontrolled test opinion or set of opinions is not a repeatable methodic scientific test. even with the glass on you can cradle a ball and then flip it on camera repeatedly and determine the speed. If your are flipping at the same time each time on multiple machines of each you will actually get a real data set that some conclusions could be drawn from.