Medieval Madness
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Quoted from snyper2099:...
If the game was on location, I am confident it would earn and the minor differences for the casual player would probably be overlooked. I just don't know if there is a market for operators at 8K either... I suppose we shall see.
no coin mechs 
ummm...
i'm a little confused.
why would a buyer of an MMR (me) who fully supports the project, and is surprised that part of the original pinball machine is now missing in my $8,000.00 purchase be getting a thumbs-down by Rarehero, when I'm bringing up the missing coin mechs to someone else who was talking about it being on location?
Rarehero, are you just randomly mad about the topic, or have I pissed you off for some reason?
I don't get it.
Is your goal to get me to want to cancel my MMR order?
Quoted from Rarehero:Thumbs down = disagree.
Whenever someone brings up coin mechs as a reason it can't be put on location, I disagree...because there is so much misinformation (some willful) concerning this topic. The game comes with a standard coin-op coin door. Pop in the mechs, you're good to go for location play.
i still don't get it.
MMR does not come with coin mechs. I stated a "fact". I provided no "opinion", nor did I say it could not be put on location. I only stated a fact to someone mentioning about putting the game out on location. Now, I certainly have an opinion as a paying customer, but that's not what my original post was that you disagree with. They could next choose to ship the MMR with no legs, and state that it still plays for HUO, and just go buy & add some legs if you want to put it out on location. This is a cheap/bad business decision.
Why do you disagree with the original "fact" post that I stated? Is that "fact" now incorrect? I hope so.
If not, it's like disagreeing with someone saying "red is a color".
I'm still confused.
man, you're reading way too much into it.
i had no idea if the fellow knew if the machine came location-ready or not. that's all. so i stated a "fact" to him. hopefully that person is aware now. "that" was the hidden agenda. to inform. sheesh...
if PPS next decides to ship MMR without legs, because you don't really need that either for HUO, and someone starts talking about putting MMR on a location, i'd say, "MMR doesn't come with legs". Hoping this person already knew, and if not, now does. Sometimes stating a fact is nothing more than just stating a fact. really. and by the way, I'm an MMR LE customer, and am getting the impression that I'm like one of the only people on this site trying to support the game.
no good deed goes unpunished.
for me...
when i ponied up $8k and being told it was MM as a remake, my incorrect assumption was it was the entire machine, not selectively reduced later in the game.
what else might they pull from the product prior to shipping?
i don't know. but, i'm getting concerned.
folks don't need a coin door at all for HUO. just put a solid wood front on it or a plain maintenance entry door. no need for coin-slots or coin-return holes, because coins aren't needed for HUO.
folks don't need legs on a HUO. it is still playable.
folks don't need speakers on a HUO. a player can just plug in headphones.
could use particle board for the cabinet.
where's the line?
what's the next cost cutting surprise for an $8,000.00 machine?
I was not being a cheap-azz when saying i'd spend $8,000 on this machine, with the expectation that the vendor would reciprocate and not be a cheap-azz either. It would appear, my expectations were wrong.
Quoted from Jvspin:Never cared for this type of argument. Why get all indignant about a bunch of things that didn't happen?
The game is missing coin mechs. Fine, be outraged about that.
If Chicago Gaming was smart, they would have had PPS include a gift certificate for two coin mechs with every game.
I'm not indignant... i'm just wandering what's next (if anything)?
...you know... do we need to buy our own fuses. heck, they cost less than the coin mechs. why not.
I truly expected to be paying for a "complete" game in the US, by a US company, shipping to a US location/customer, with all the parts... including US coin mechs.
Did the original MM ship to the US locations without coin mechs? maybe it didn't, and i'm just making myself wound-up for no reason 
Quoted from jfh:It did not - the original came with coin mechs. I'm not aware of any WMS game that shipped without them.
thanks for the info
dohh.....
so, sure would be nice to get all the same features/stuff in the 8k toy as the original. ya know...
he has no problem removing stuff from the shipped product, but i didn't see him lower the price to accommodate the BOM variance. he has no problem keeping the money. that's just not cool.
and after managing a $4.5 billion global procurement commodity, I can say... that's whack.
Vendor pulls that with me in a "professional" environment, and it's major azz-handing time.
Sadly... if I spend too much time noodling on this, it will be azz-handing time for them.
Tell us "Rarehero", exactly how are you being compensated to TROLL any criticism of MMR ?
I'm really beginning to want this MMR game less & less, especially due to you, which means if you are being compensated by PPS, you're failing.
Think it's time to report you.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:WTF, how about the Shaker, LCD upgrade able to color,LEDS and stereo. Much better crap that benefits a home buyer.
i hear ya 100%. ...and i kinda thought that's what was coming with the $8,000 purchase, plus more not yet announced stuff for the LE folks. maybe i've forgotten how my original expectation was set a year ago? ...honestly... maybe my expectations went up over the last year. i dunno. And even if that's true, and i'm very willing to say it is, i do find myself a bit tweaked to hear a year later that it is now shipping with less parts. Which then makes me concerned there could be more reduction decisions coming. I don't know. But I am concerned. what's wrong with that and seeking to understand more about the situation?
I'm not looking for a food fight, but I am sitting here with 1 eyebrow raised wondering what's going on.
Quoted from jalpert:Maybe you should just cancel instead of filling this thread about how made you are about $14 worth of parts. Ask your distributor and most likely you'll be able to cancel.
Never really had a quitter's attitude. But do fight for value.
ps. I also fight for the User.
Quoted from jfh:Rarehero - you are something else. My post was a statement of fact. I have two emails from Rick where he refused to answer a direct question and he never returned my phone call.
And I know there are others with the same experience. Go ahead - try yourself and post the results here.
I think there's something going on with him lately. Used to be fun guy. But getting really angry with facts lately. Doing same thing to me. Wish he was back to his happy/fun self. I could mail him a nice bottle and cigar maybe ?
Quoted from calvin12:they also never said they were included.
they never said fuses, legs, coin doors, balls, or even lights are included.
that's a false argument.
don't need legs or a coin door to make the game playable. just saying...
it's just as silly for me to say that as it is Rick to surprise me with an "incomplete" product 1 year after selling it. Then to say, if i actually wanted the "complete" machine, i'll have to pay even more.
$8,000.00 for a complete game. "complete".
then a year later I get informed for the same price game will include "less".
Price should be reduced to match the smaller BOM.
Here's a question...
Why isn't Rick reducing the MMR price to reflect the smaller BOM that will now be shipped?
Not a single person has answered that question. So... why is it?
Why is it acceptable to get less for the same price?
I see so many people posting threads where they were sold a certain pinball machine, get it shipped to them, and it is far less than what they were sold. The community rallies around them and tries to support them. How is what Rick did any different, and why are people here perfectly ok with that situation. Seems really hypocritical doesn't it?
Quoted from calvin12:With idiots like this is no wonder pps reduced the time spent here.
reducing yourself to name calling isn't an intelligent perspective.
paying more for less isn't either.
if you don't have anything intelligent to add, then you insult the person delivering the message.
hmmm.... not a very "grown up" approach.
does that work for you at work as well, or do you just reserve that approach for here?
Quoted from calvin12:No legs, good luck turning it on sitting on the floor out on a table. You are getting a complete game, grow up and stop whining. What you will have delivered will be able to be set up and played with what is in the box.it's not a bally home model.
I'll be sure to quote your wisdom to every person's thread here that gets started about receiving less than what they thought they bought on future pins.
ps. you can put it on blocks to reach the on switch. a person could buy blocks for about $7 each. 
Quoted from Pinballholic:Exactly these people are ridiculous!
nice day-old user account.
So, let's see here...
Ask a question and:
1) get insulted by people
2) have people change the subject as part of not answering the question & then get insulted too
3) have people create new/fake user accounts to create illusion of mass insult
4) have people answer a Different unasked-question to justify not answering the specific question
still no one can answer the simple question. 
Why isn't Rick reducing the MMR price to reflect the smaller BOM that will now be shipped?
Quoted from calvin12:Because he is shipping a complete game, stop being stupid.
I think we're on to something here. And thank you for a non-insulting emotional response. Oh wait, you are still making emotional insults here. Do you have some form of compensation from PPS for this? If not, you should go negotiate for compensation. However, I think your approach is making a strong case for lower future PPS pinball prices, which Rick may actually not want to happen.
I think we're discussing what a "complete game" means.
And i think my definition may be different than others and yours. And that is totally ok, but perhaps worth exploring.
For me, the "complete game" is everything the original had plus the improvements that were announced with it by PPS. And (i could be totally wrong here), but I think the original MM came with coin mechs. So I'm using that as "my expectation":
1. baseline original MM BOM +
2. (plus) the PPS improvements +
3. (plus) LE features (for LE buyers, like me).
But, I think (I could be wrong again), that for you, Rarehero and I'm sure others...
A "complete game" is not everything the original had plus PPS improvements. So "your expectation" might be:
A. baseline original MM BOM -
B. (minus) coin mechs +
C. (plus) the PPS improvements +
D. (plus) LE features (for LE buyers, like me).
Now, when I was "sold" the game, my understanding was the "my expectation" items (1-3) above was for a "Set Price". Then a year later, I'm informed it is now "less" than "my expectation" but for the same "Set Price". And I don't think that is fair to me or to others if they had the same expectation.
What is curious is how did you or Rarehero (or others), have a very exact/specific expectation a year ago when first "sold" the game at it's announcement that the new MMR actually did not come with coinmechs? How did you know that back them? Or, you didn't know and are just ok with paying the same price even when finding out later there will be less? Which I think (total guess) it's the latter, and for some people that's fine.
Quoted from Kkuoppamaki:He also added stuff after the announcement, leg protectors, improved cabinet bottom and finished inside of the cabinet. Original MM had none of these and they were add-ons that add value to the game. Would you like Rick to increase the price too?
Yes. Thank you so much for reminding me about that. Those are very good points.
I should probably have added an additional line item to each of the 2 "expectations" sections.
I thought he had said there would be "more additions" to the MMR, but to be announced later. Now, it's been a year, so I may have totally forgotten & imagined that ("more additions") part... but I think that was part of the expectation set? Anyone remember?
Quoted from calvin12:Can you take the game out of the box and play it, with full code even (I'm looking at you Stern). If the answer is yes, you have a complete game. So what should PPS do with mechs If I decided I wanted to have token play, are they supposed to swap those in, WMS didn't? Oh ok you want tokens, what size mech do you want then, there are several. Oh, you are in buffalo and get lots of canadian coins, can they give both kinds out? It is a stupid argument. Everything is there, just plug in the mech of your choice, quarter, dollar, canadian, euro, marks, tokens, nickels ect.
So for me, if the US company is building the game in US and shipping to a US destination (me), then include the US coin mechs. I think this is what Stern does and also (not confirmed) what was done with the original MM? My NIB Stern Tron came with US coin mechs, but had heard (not confirmed) they don't for other countries.
Stern is building the MMR's, isn't it Stern's standard manufacturing protocol to include US coinmechs in pinball machines that are going to US delivery locations? So, to do something different (by not including any coinmechs) by Stern for the MMR, actually means changing Stern's standard manufacturing & QA process? Would be a total trip if this manufacturing & QA change for coinmechs was part of what's slowing down the shipping dates 
hehehe... that would be my luck.
I don't know what people in Buffalo do, but I'm guessing if it's a US NIB manufactured machine being shipped to a US destination, they ship with standard US coinmechs? I really don't know. I guess someone makes mutual USD/CAD friendly unified coinmechs? As a reference point, I can tell you, I don't see PESO friendly machines along the US border in Texas.
but...
The question of:
1) What to do about coinmechs not being included? (turning lemons into lemonade)
is a different question from:
2) Why isn't Rick reducing the MMR price to reflect the smaller BOM that will now be shipped?
now...
Kkuoppamaki brought up a very excellent point, and something that over the last year, I've forgotten. Look at all these other things being added above and beyond the original MM BOM.
And, one could say, look all those extras just add more value, and because of that PPS announces a year later they are going to eliminate 2 items from original BOM. Now, I may have missed it, but if that were explicitly said by PPS, I think folks would say "ahhh ok". But, I had thought extra stuff was being added to help justify that higher price point originally, and then a year later learn that stuff is being removed, was I guess the "my expectation" gap.
Quoted from calvin12:sterns protocol is irrelevant to this build, PPS/CGC tell stern what to do. If Stern was told to put a 24" double-ender in each coin box they would. They are nothing but the build contractor.
You made an assumption of what you were getting, you screwed up. Don't assume anything.
And now yes I am no longer saying you are being stupid, your level has been changed. If you are this whiny about a $7 coin mech you shouldn't be buying 8000 toys, your finances are too tight.
Sadly, I wonder how many people "screwed up" buying MMR based on their assumption of a "complete game" being sold to them?
Quoted from pezpunk:this is the biggest mountain ever made out of a molehill. the capacity for pointless whining astounds me. pay the $9 for the coin mechs already. it's the world's easiest solution. some people would just rather whine and whine and whine rather than actually solve their problems.
i would say, it is just as easy for PPS to pay for the coin mechs.
see how easy that was to type it & read it. Surely they can?
Exactly
hehehe... If PPS keeps that $14, they'll be able to afford that 12 pack. Good for them.
You know... it's really no big deal. But, I just don't get how folks can complain about Stern releasing playable / working games (even when there may or may not be new code coming, or repair parts, or...), but if PPS ships a machine with less parts (even though it is playable), that it is perfectly ok, and the buyer should just suck it up and live with it. If that's the case, shouldn't that be the answer to every single person on pinside that complains about any Stern pinball machine, or any used pinball machine that isn't complete or what they expected, even if it is playable?
Just seems like PPS is getting measured by different standards than, say:
a) Stern,
b) anyone who sells a used pinball machine. Seller says, Ramps are in perfect condition, shows up all broken to buyer. Buyer complains (oh wait... "whines"), and the message is shut up & live with it.
c) any opinion about the Hobbit pin. It's playable, who cares about the dragon, just shut up and live with it. is that the message?
d) Having a little trouble seeing that cool UV ink on Predator. Just shut up & live with it.
e) or any other company selling pinball machines.
That, and just the principal of the situation. It is just as simple for PPS to include it as it is for me. But, why so much very strong emotional reaction to the topic is really curious. It's almost the reaction i'd expect from folks defending a religion or a sports team, etc... Especially if the folks have no (zero) financially vested interest in the company. That's just curious. Oh well. I've certainly learned my lesson.
If this is really the consensus answer to anyone with a question or complaint about a pinball being sold, then there should be a vast reduction in threads or posts on Pinside. Right? Because the answer to them is shut up & just live with it. Dang... Buyer beware...
Quoted from hardware:In your opinion what would an MM in new condition go for today?
MMR is new. Don't forget that you don't see MM in that condition.
With or without coinmechs ? (sorry, that door was just too wide open for smart-azz like me)
duck for cover 
hi. yep. I'm MMRLE Black. Think I ordered within the first hour of announcement. Couldn't believe it was actually happening. Can't wait to get it 
Played the heck out of it back in march on the gold and silver. Didn't have black option yet there.
It plays "better" than the real thing, and the light show is incredible on it. The lights were really the big surprise part for me. The reason I went black was, that (at least in person), the artwork on the cabinet & playfield is such high quality, that it makes the standard silver rails/legs actually look lower quality next to the art package, and they just don't seem to fit quite right. The gold is just peculiar. I really-really wanted gold. But when Black became an option I went for it. After seeing pix from Expo recently, I'm glad I went black. In the end, I'll bet there will be some cool aftermarket options.
Hopefully Rick doesn't cancel my order for trying to discuss why my expectation was off about what was included in a "complete" machine. But, given the response from some folks here, ya never know 
Quoted from mario_1_up:Thank god for the drain it option on threads. Yet another mmr thread going sdtm.
Beats TV 
plus, secretly, I like hanging out with all these pinball dudes & dudettes, even if we do disagree about stuff.
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Bristow, VA