(Topic ID: 107128)

MMr - $5500 MSRP?


By LordCrom

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by scasey
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There are 187 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
#1 5 years ago

Is there an explanation as to why the MMr could not have been produced at an MSRP of $5500? I would gladly purchase a remake of a classic pin without hesitation at $5500. At $8000 I find it difficult to justify even the purchase of a highly anticipated pin like TBL.

Is it possible the reason for the high asking price was to attempt not to bottom out the market on the original MM machines? Do the original machines lose value with the release of MMr? Does greed play a factor in the pricing decision?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

17
#2 5 years ago

Call Rick and ask him, 408-891-7878.

Easiest way to find out if you really want to know.

18
#3 5 years ago
Quoted from LordCrom:

Is there an explanation as to why the MMr could not have been produced at an MSRP of $5500? I would gladly purchase a remake of a classic pin without hesitation at $5500. At $8000 I find it difficult to justify even the purchase of a highly anticipated pin like TBL.
Is it possible the reason for the high asking price was to attempt not to bottom out the market on the original MM machines? Do the original machines lose value with the release of MMr? Does greed play a factor in the pricing decision?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Simple answer...it's the price point people will buy it at.

-1
#4 5 years ago

i cant see how they could get it out the door for 5.5k, considering all costs that go into putting it together.... and there are a lot. 7-8k yes.

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from NJGecko:

it's the price point people will buy it at.

It was. Not sure anymore.

#6 5 years ago

I am a buyer at $4000

#7 5 years ago

It seems entirely reasonable that MMr should be selling for less. The industry has found that folks are willing to pay between 7 and 8K...and the prices will stay there.

#8 5 years ago

Much easier to sell a game at 8k when they are holding value reasonably well.

Tough market lately. Guaranteed to take a bath IMO on almost any pin @ 8k. Still so many good titles sub 3k and so much less downside.

20
#9 5 years ago

For the people that think they can't get a pinball machine out the door for $5500 are just naive. If they could make one 2 years ago at that price....they certainly can make one today for the same amount or close.

43
#10 5 years ago

8 grand is way too high for a remake with no collectible value... but some are... or at least were willing to pay it and you can't blame PPS for that... more power to them! PROFIT IS POWER! (new bumper sticker coming, send money now!)

People dove in thinking they were getting a $15k NIB MM for 8k because they failed to realize that much of the value in original MM's was collectible value. Something you're not getting with MMr.

Whether you like WoZ or not you can't dispute the fact that JJP gave us A LOT for our money. Compare MMr to WoZ as far as the machine itself and its laughable. If MMr is worth 8k then WoZLE is worth 12k at least... did I really say that?

There's only so many 8k pins one can buy... too many new choices today.

MM is a great title but be prepared to take a $1500-$2000 (maybe more) hit once you play your MMr. I think your 8 grand is better spent on a decent original. In the end I believe they will hold that 8k much, much better than the remake.

#11 5 years ago

Free market capitalism.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

8 grand is way too high for a remake with no collectible value... but some are... or at least were willing to pay it and you can't blame PPS for that... more power to them! PROFIT IS POWER! (new bumper sticker coming, send money now!)
People dove in thinking they were getting a $15k NIB MM for 8k because they failed to realize that much of the value in original MM's was collectible value. Something you're not getting with MMr.
Whether you like WoZ or not you can't dispute the fact that JJP gave us A LOT for our money. Compare MMr to WoZ as far as the machine itself and its laughable. If MMr is worth 8k then WoZLE is worth 12k at least... did I really say that?
There's only so many 8k pins one can buy... too many new choices today.
MM is a great title but be prepared to take a $1500-$2000 (maybe more) hit once you play your MMr. I think your 8 grand is better spent on a decent original. In the end I believe they will hold that 8k much, much better than the remake.

Holy hand grenades...I think I'm agreeing with teekee here

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

MM is a great title but be prepared to take a $1500-$2000 (maybe more) hit once you play your MMr. I think your 8 grand is better spent on a decent original. In the end I believe they will hold that 8k much, much better than the remake.

Except for many the original's value was based on rarity.With them reproducing the same game, albeit with some different hardware behind the scenes, it is no long rare. Be prepared to take a hit either way.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from dung:

Be prepared to take a hit either way.

On just about anything and everything these days... the massive supply is coming and you know what they say about supply and demand. Supply will be winning BIG TIME soon... if not already.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from LordCrom:

Does greed play a factor in the pricing?

I'm sorry, is this really a question or do you like reading 20 page pricing threads that much? Are you greedy for having or wanting pinball machines when others in the world are less fortunate.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from luckymoey:

Free market capitalism.

The market is inefficient and not a lot is known. I think if manufacturers really had a handle on the elasticity of demand we might of seen a lower price, or even a higher one -whichever option led to then most profit when quantity is considered. PPS had to take a guess and once started they couldn't really change drastically without negative consequences. Case in point, they didn't change pricing but added the 'standard' model which increased supply reducing demand, since this is a luxury good where some of the value is based on the value folks place on exclusivity.

#17 5 years ago

No offense, but this is a stupid question and the question could be asked about anything that is sold on the market. Just think how much drug companies sell life saving drugs for and you wouldn't care about the topic of pinball and a guy trying to make a good living for himself. The "free" used market will soon have the chance to price the MMR and my guess is, MMR's will be selling for $6000-6500 HUO not far after it is released. Pinflation has hit the wall and it's pretty obvious. It's actually a good thing for pinball as the high prices can have a negative impact on the hobby.............Conversely, high prices are a sign that the hobby is healthy.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Pinflation has hit the wall and it's pretty obvious. It's actually a good thing for pinball as the high prices can have a negative impact on the hobby.

Also have a positive impact... high prices were not all bad as some believe. Yes, prices were once high but you could also count on getting your money back (or more) when the time came to sell. Hell, I know a guy that could only be in the hobby for this reason and I'm sure there are many others. They were able to buy a machine even though they couldn't necessarily afford it but they knew their money was safe if they needed to sell. Now prices are coming down and that's great... or is it? So now you buy something cheaper only to lose more when it comes time to sell. Some will have to leave the hobby for this reason.

So what's really better? Hard to say as both have their pros and cons if you're willing to see the big picture.

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

8 grand is way too high for a remake with no collectible value... but some are... or at least were willing to pay it and you can't blame PPS for that... more power to them! PROFIT IS POWER! (new bumper sticker coming, send money now!)
People dove in thinking they were getting a $15k NIB MM for 8k because they failed to realize that much of the value in original MM's was collectible value. Something you're not getting with MMr.
Whether you like WoZ or not you can't dispute the fact that JJP gave us A LOT for our money. Compare MMr to WoZ as far as the machine itself and its laughable. If MMr is worth 8k then WoZLE is worth 12k at least... did I really say that?
There's only so many 8k pins one can buy... too many new choices today.
MM is a great title but be prepared to take a $1500-$2000 (maybe more) hit once you play your MMr. I think your 8 grand is better spent on a decent original. In the end I believe they will hold that 8k much, much better than the remake.

Unfortunately, the initial buyers are funding PPS/Chicago Gaming's collaboration and start-up costs. Most likely the subsequent Williams/Bally remake will be in the $5500 retail area. The MMR resell market will determine the success of future remakes, especially with regards to price point.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from LordCrom:

Does greed play a factor in the pricing decision?

"Greed" plays a factor in every informed, arm's length pricing decision for every product or service on the planet.

Every manufacturer or retailer gets up in the morning with an objective of making as much total profit as they can possibly make, and the cost of making a product has nothing to do with the price at which it sells.

#21 5 years ago

Is TBL intended to be linked here? I don't see this thread having to do with it?

I think its funny though people can assume to know what these should cost / assume there's tons of profit. I doubt it.. There's shit loads of details here, and subcontracts getting paid out to get these things done. They all want to make their own profits to put food on the table. Think stern is doing contract manufacturing without making it worth it to them? No.

20
#22 5 years ago
-7
#23 5 years ago
Quoted from JonH123:

12k+ for a used MM = no thanks. 8k for a brand new one = here's my money.

I see you are new here... it definitely shows but that comment. But welcome anyway and prepare to learn... remember there are only two words to live by... TEE KEE

Now, let's dance...

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

People dove in thinking they were getting a $15k NIB MM for 8k because they failed to realize that much of the value in original MM's was collectible value. Something you're not getting with MMr.

I like having the option of an 8k MMR vs a 15k MM. Both are too rich for me though.

-1
#25 5 years ago
Quoted from Toasterdog:

I like having the option of an 8k MMR vs a 15k MM. Both are too rich for me though.

That would be good if all MM's were 15k... you can get a nice original for nearly the cost of the remake... although with the way the remake prices are going... maybe not.

#26 5 years ago

$8K would have worked a year ago when the market was hot, but now that the market is soft (how ironic that it's probably in part due to PPS remakes) I know at least half of the people I knew ordering MMr have bailed out at that price and they think it's too expensive.

I think that the market is adjusting, and now the manufactures are going to have to adjust their pricing if they want to sell in higher quantities.

And of course, I think Stern needs to step it up a little and stop giving us mostly empty playfields with no creative interaction in gameplay (my humble opinion). A few magnets, a toy that shakes, and a bash toy with color LED's is not enough to keep me interested no matter what the title is.

Right now I'd buy an nice Original MM, the prices on them are better than they've been in many years and I think they actually may be a good buy right now.

#27 5 years ago

From my experience, emotional decisions are rarely good ones. That goes for purchasing pins as well. I'm glad PPS gave me time to become rational again.

#28 5 years ago

There's an original MM on Mr Pinball this morning for 6750... Sounds like its not a scam and that it needs some help.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from NJGecko:

Simple answer...it's the price point people will buy it at.

yup. market value! I cant blame them either, thats how free markets work. They are no greedier than you are when you expect to recieve a paycheck at your job.

The modernized electronics are **much** cheaper (adjusted) than they were in the 90s too, though I wager the labor may be more (adjusted)

19
#30 5 years ago

IMHO Rick/PPS shit the bed when they announced the unlimited version of the standard model MMr. That was a bad move! They got greedy, it backfired and now they will struggle to sell the original 1000 "LE" games.

#31 5 years ago

They might be able to crank them out cheaper, but if they have 1000 or so willing to pay top banana for them, why leave money on the table?

It's a small business, not unicef. Get it while the getting is good because the getting never lasts.

#32 5 years ago

I would prefer to sell 1000 @ 8000$ over 3000 @ 5000$ myself. Seems like it would be true for any manufacturer, and is

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from muttonboy:

I would prefer to sell 1000 @ 8000$ over 3000 @ 5000$ myself. Seems like it would be true for any manufacturer, and is

Question is when its all said and done will they be able to sell 500 at $8k?

-1
#34 5 years ago
Quoted from muttonboy:

I would prefer to sell 1000 @ 8000$ over 3000 @ 5000$ myself. Seems like it would be true for any manufacturer, and is

You would rather make $8k than $15k? I guess math is hard for some people.

#35 5 years ago
Quoted from judremy:

So you would rather make $8k than $15k? I guess math is hard for some people.

Haha. I know what you meant but its funny none the less. Lecturing about incorrect math with incorrect math.

#36 5 years ago

I've said from the beginning that I don't understand why people are jumping on the MSRP? No one pays MSRP for Stems and it should be the same with these. I think the price would settle out at about 6500 if so many people hadn't made it rain.

Also don't understand the statement about collectability? In a few years if I want an MM, I'm definitely looking for an MMr and not an original. Newer and more reliable make it more desirable to me.

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Question is when its all said and done will they be able to sell 500 at $8k?

I could care less, but I'd say yeah. I'd think they'd be pretty screwed had they priced it at 5000 though, can't be that many people that want one and haven't already had one or have one alreay.

Stern model makes more and more sense! never thought I'd say that!

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from judremy:

You would rather make $8k than $15k? I guess math is hard for some people.

lol thats ridiculous. barring the math error, its more about profit right? make 1000$ x 3000 or 4000$ x 1000 with all the overtime production costs etc etc etc. lot less headache.

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I've said from the beginning that I don't understand why people are jumping on the MSRP? No one pays MSRP for Stems and it should be the same with these. I think the price would settle out at about 6500 if so many people hadn't made it rain.
Also don't understand the statement about collectability? In a few years if I want an MM, I'm definitely looking for an MR and not an original. Newer and more reliable make it more desirable to me.

You are making an assumption that the newer game will be more reliable. Obviously buyers hope this is the case, but until these things have been stress tested on locations for almost two decades (like some MM's have trooped through so far...) its an assumption.

The corrollary is new buyers are taking on the risk that goes with any new platform... new sources of unexpected problems.

#40 5 years ago

Just like WOZ satisfies a lot of people now that they are all delivered, so will MMr. You can complain and theorize all you want about machines that aren't being enjoyed by their owners, but until they are delivered its all hot air.

MM is one of the finest pinball machines ever conceived and produced, and delivers real satisfication to those lucky enough to play it and/or own one. To think MMr will somehow be a pale shadow of the original, or less appealing to play and enjoy is folly. Let the collectors have their rarities....that doesn't have anything to do with MMr. There is "waiting fatigue" in the market. That will evaporate for MMr once it's delivered. I envy those receiving one.

Speaking as someone who got a refund, because $8k is too rich for any game for me. But I'll trade my AVLE for someone's spot - or game - for the right deal. :>.

#41 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

You are making an assumption that the newer game will be more reliable. Obviously buyers hope this is the case, but until these things have been stress tested on locations for almost two decades (like some MM's have trooped through so far...) its an assumption.
The corrollary is new buyers are taking on the risk that goes with any new platform... new sources of unexpected problems.

It's already settled science, didn't you get the memo. Newer is better.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

You are making an assumption that the newer game will be more reliable. Obviously buyers hope this is the case, but until these things have been stress tested on locations for almost two decades (like some MM's have trooped through so far...) its an assumption.
The corrollary is new buyers are taking on the risk that goes with any new platform... new sources of unexpected problems.

Most will be HUO vs originals which are mostly routed beaters that have been shined up. Time will tell, but I would take this bet.

#43 5 years ago

I'd rather they made MM using similar tech as the original then maybe the price could be closer to $5500. Instead they got to add all these mods and jack the price up. I personally don't care about these LED boards and the technology behind that and color DMD and some other bloat they've added to it. I also don't think they needed to offer choices of trim color and the list goes on. This really shouldn't be called a remake but rather a special edition or MMng for Next Generation etc..

I love the idea, but not the execution which seems to be the theme with me and most of these new pins coming out.

#44 5 years ago

No offense to the OP but, all of these threads about lower prices. Why on earth would any of these companies lower their prices? They have gone up and up and up for years. Things don't typically come down in price. That is where the USED market comes into play. I don't think we are ever going to see lower prices unless things get desperate.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from JonH123:

12k+ for a used MM = no thanks. 8k for a brand new one = here's my money.

And herein lies the problem. This is like comparing spending $500 for a ticket to see Elvis at Caesar's to spending $12.50 to see the Elvis impersonator at Binion's.

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

You are making an assumption that the newer game will be more reliable. Obviously buyers hope this is the case, but until these things have been stress tested on locations for almost two decades (like some MM's have trooped through so far...) its an assumption.
The corrollary is new buyers are taking on the risk that goes with any new platform... new sources of unexpected problems.

^THIS^ I am so tired of people declaring MMR more reliable than the original.... The damned thing hasn't even been built yet let alone sufferd thru 20 years and 100,000+ plays in an arcade.

Note about the author: My wife wanted a fancy new HE washer and dryer but our 20+ year old set worked flawlessly! I gave in and bought the new set up and no bullshit the new more reliable high efficiency washer took a shit about 2 months after the warranty expired it cost me over $400 for the new controller board to get it working again. IMHO my "new HE washer" is a piece of shit! Oh yea I sold my old set to a buddy and it's still working flawlessly!

#47 5 years ago

Hey hey....and like there is a problem with that?

Binion's is my kinda place....

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

I see you are new here... it definitely shows but that comment. But welcome anyway and prepare to learn... remember there are only two words to live by... TEE KEE

Now, let's dance...

That's right, you'll learn things like if Teekee isn't selling it, it's not worth anything. Earthshaker is an 8k game folks! Lets dance

-1
#49 5 years ago
Quoted from Glarrownage:

Earthshaker is an 8k game folks!

$7900 to be exact... please pay attention and get it right next time.

Now, let's dance!

You Non HEP guys that know nothing about high end restored pins crack me up!

#50 5 years ago

MMr is probably the most expensive new pin option out there. At 250 pounds (estimate, maybe lighter with fewer boards), that is $32/pound.

THLE is the cheapest at only $21.25/lb

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